Timtoolman
New Member
LOL, funny but full of truth in this humor.
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Calvinist Church Dumps Free Will Offerings
- Thread starter Ben W
- Start date
That is a little sad that we have to get into accusing people of not being saved this early in the thread!
There were several Calvinist Churches here in Adelaide in the 1960's, the last one closed down last year and has been taken over by a Presbyterian Group that is exclusive. Yet the Arminian Churches have grown all over our city and many new congregations have been planted. The Baptist Union is totally Arminian in nature and is doing well.
Calvinists and not all, yet a number that I have met are similar to the Exclusive Brethren and are non evangelical, and the result is described above.
There were several Calvinist Churches here in Adelaide in the 1960's, the last one closed down last year and has been taken over by a Presbyterian Group that is exclusive. Yet the Arminian Churches have grown all over our city and many new congregations have been planted. The Baptist Union is totally Arminian in nature and is doing well.
Calvinists and not all, yet a number that I have met are similar to the Exclusive Brethren and are non evangelical, and the result is described above.
Many are called, few are chosen!!
BTW, Isnt that presbyterian church calvinistic? Strange if it isnt!
Also, Calvinists definitely evangelize and share Christ with every opportunity with great gratitude for the grace extended to them! We tell everyone that Christ died to save sinners and have they ever been aware of their great sinfulness? If they show interest and response we are then grateful for the opportunity to tell them about how/why Christ died for His own! What a great blessing!
How sad that Calvinists who are so evangelistic are accused falsely of being otherwise! Great error by those who have little or no understanding of the tenets of calvinism!!
BTW, Isnt that presbyterian church calvinistic? Strange if it isnt!
Also, Calvinists definitely evangelize and share Christ with every opportunity with great gratitude for the grace extended to them! We tell everyone that Christ died to save sinners and have they ever been aware of their great sinfulness? If they show interest and response we are then grateful for the opportunity to tell them about how/why Christ died for His own! What a great blessing!
How sad that Calvinists who are so evangelistic are accused falsely of being otherwise! Great error by those who have little or no understanding of the tenets of calvinism!!
The attitude that I have seen time and time again is that "God will draw them to the church". In work amongst muslims, the Calvinists are the first to give up because it is hard work and it is the Arminian Churches that get results. It seems all to often that when a Calvinist Church has gotten down to the last few families that the attitude is that it is Gods will that this is happening so lets just give up.
King James Bond
New Member
BenW,
You posted;
I as a Calvinist tell other people to do the same thing. As a matter of fact daily there is something in me reminding myself the same concept.
And then you say this;
How am I opposite to evangelism?
Can you please tell me how many people I have preached to and how many I have missed compared to say....you?
KJB
You posted;
I, a Calvinist posted;
Now if I have said something evil I hope you would point it out to me.
I as a Calvinist tell other people to do the same thing. As a matter of fact daily there is something in me reminding myself the same concept.
And then you say this;
So is it evil to tell people "Turn to Jesus Christ and away from yourself and your sin."
How am I opposite to evangelism?
Can you please tell me how many people I have preached to and how many I have missed compared to say....you?
KJB
King James Bond
New Member
It is easy to fill a church up with the world.
It happens all the time here in the USA and I am sure in many other countries also.
One problem is the way many churches invite anybody and everybody.
Part of the problem is they do all the invitations with everything the world wants to hear! So the world comes storming in full steam ahead.
At first what you have is some noble effort and idea. Many hope "as long as we can get them in here we can preach to them".
So what happens is they do NO invitations with anything that would offend those of the world. We don't ant to sound too harsh and offensive because people will not come for that.
So lets say good things...the things that people like to hear....you know.....lets tickle their ears.
Another problem is once they fill the church with so many of the world....they still do not preach harsh truth because now they are afraid that those they have gotten to come in might be offended and leave.
What you end up with is a congregation jam packed full of people that have never even been convicted of sin! They really think they are good!
These are the people that will shout down the Sovereign will of God in election but declare loud and clear with full praise the glorious free-will of men!
Many of these congregations (probably many like the ones BenW speaks about) need real evangelism and do not even know it!
They have become so infested with the world they have become as the world! They have been brought up to think good of themselves (tickle each others ears) lest anyone is offended.
These are the ones that put on a form of godliness but deny the very power of God that saved them.
The saving power to them rests in themselves and their good hearts and sound minds......oh how great they are in and of themselves! These people don't even think of themselves as sick let alone dead in sin.
Very sad indeed.
So what has become of telling people of their nature first?
It is easy to save people that don't even know they were lost!
They don't think they were lost and found....they think they were always found and just waiting for the Savior.
If people are not convicted of their utter wretchedness and helplessness......the whole world will come a running!
KJB
It happens all the time here in the USA and I am sure in many other countries also.
One problem is the way many churches invite anybody and everybody.
Part of the problem is they do all the invitations with everything the world wants to hear! So the world comes storming in full steam ahead.
At first what you have is some noble effort and idea. Many hope "as long as we can get them in here we can preach to them".
So what happens is they do NO invitations with anything that would offend those of the world. We don't ant to sound too harsh and offensive because people will not come for that.
So lets say good things...the things that people like to hear....you know.....lets tickle their ears.
Another problem is once they fill the church with so many of the world....they still do not preach harsh truth because now they are afraid that those they have gotten to come in might be offended and leave.
What you end up with is a congregation jam packed full of people that have never even been convicted of sin! They really think they are good!
These are the people that will shout down the Sovereign will of God in election but declare loud and clear with full praise the glorious free-will of men!
Many of these congregations (probably many like the ones BenW speaks about) need real evangelism and do not even know it!
They have become so infested with the world they have become as the world! They have been brought up to think good of themselves (tickle each others ears) lest anyone is offended.
These are the ones that put on a form of godliness but deny the very power of God that saved them.
The saving power to them rests in themselves and their good hearts and sound minds......oh how great they are in and of themselves! These people don't even think of themselves as sick let alone dead in sin.
Very sad indeed.
So what has become of telling people of their nature first?
It is easy to save people that don't even know they were lost!
They don't think they were lost and found....they think they were always found and just waiting for the Savior.
If people are not convicted of their utter wretchedness and helplessness......the whole world will come a running!
KJB
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Ben;
Did the pastor dump that offering in his back pocket or burn it . If he burned it someone please turn him in for destroying government property. We only own it's value not the money it self.
I think I know someone who works over there at the tresury department who might be intrested.
Offerings are always freewill. It's an offer God can refuse it isn't up to the pastor. Purposefully burning money is a felony.Not to mention Arson.
Only tithes are comanded by the pastor. It's funny because tithes are a product of the Law(" Will a man rob God") however Christians are not under the Law. What I give, I give from the heart and I do it gladly not because some preacher asked me. Or whined about not making enough money.
In The Light Of Christ
Mike
Did the pastor dump that offering in his back pocket or burn it . If he burned it someone please turn him in for destroying government property. We only own it's value not the money it self.
I think I know someone who works over there at the tresury department who might be intrested.
Offerings are always freewill. It's an offer God can refuse it isn't up to the pastor. Purposefully burning money is a felony.Not to mention Arson.
Only tithes are comanded by the pastor. It's funny because tithes are a product of the Law(" Will a man rob God") however Christians are not under the Law. What I give, I give from the heart and I do it gladly not because some preacher asked me. Or whined about not making enough money.
In The Light Of Christ
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Ben;
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike
This failure of Calvinist churches is a result of men pushing the doctrines Calvinism instead of the truth.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike
How would the spoof pastor of a spoof church burn a spoof offering?
None of this was real, Mike. It was a silly joke.
None of this was real, Mike. It was a silly joke.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
As always, the logical error with your argument is that Calvinists preach the Word of God because they have been instructed to do so from the Word of God.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
To be precise, Calvinism is not about Worldly wisdom and logic...it defies it and so does the Bible.
Joseph Botwinick
King James Bond
New Member
Joseph_Botwinick,
After reading your posts now I know why I was predestined to like you!
I have this feeling that you give to God the glory of your salvation.
KJB
After reading your posts now I know why I was predestined to like you!
I have this feeling that you give to God the glory of your salvation.
KJB
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Of course I give him the glory for may salvation. He is the one who saved me.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Robert J Hutton
New Member
I have just been reading Ben W's comments about an Australian Calvinistic church that closed. I can well understand where these comments are coming from as I used to attend a church which some years ago was thriving, souls being saved, baptisms, strong Mission emphasis etc. However, it swung heavily to Calvinism and the result is that it now has a sparse and aging congregation and is a laughing stock throughout the district. It is deeply sad and grieving to see this happen.
Kind regards to all.
Bob
Kind regards to all.
Bob
Actually what it is Bob, is scripture fulfillment as stated in llTim 4:3-5 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables!
Sounds like the mega churches today where the crowds flow in to hear motivational talks that help manage their finances, relationships, jobs, marraiges and such but miniscule mention of God's Word! They want to hear how they can have their best life now, discover the champion in them or fulfill their purpose but now how they can flee from the wrath to come or what the real cost of living for Christ can be!
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord God, That I will send a famine on the land. Not a famine of bread or water but of hearing the words of the Lord!!
That time has arrived folks! Make a note of every scripture exegeted in the next sermon you hear and decide if you in fact had God's Word in all its fullness preached to you!
What occurred in the above example was similar to what took place in my church. When a reformed pastor came the people began to leave in droves, not wanting to hear such sound scripture exegesis! Soon, however people returned and brought more with them to hear the sound doctrines taught there! I found this church only after much prayer that the Lord would guide me to one where His truth was taught and I will be forever grateful to HIm and praise HIm for His bringing us a man not afraid of displeasing anyone by upholding God's Word!
Blessings,
Sounds like the mega churches today where the crowds flow in to hear motivational talks that help manage their finances, relationships, jobs, marraiges and such but miniscule mention of God's Word! They want to hear how they can have their best life now, discover the champion in them or fulfill their purpose but now how they can flee from the wrath to come or what the real cost of living for Christ can be!
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord God, That I will send a famine on the land. Not a famine of bread or water but of hearing the words of the Lord!!
That time has arrived folks! Make a note of every scripture exegeted in the next sermon you hear and decide if you in fact had God's Word in all its fullness preached to you!
What occurred in the above example was similar to what took place in my church. When a reformed pastor came the people began to leave in droves, not wanting to hear such sound scripture exegesis! Soon, however people returned and brought more with them to hear the sound doctrines taught there! I found this church only after much prayer that the Lord would guide me to one where His truth was taught and I will be forever grateful to HIm and praise HIm for His bringing us a man not afraid of displeasing anyone by upholding God's Word!
Blessings,
The Bible is incredibly logical. It is a massive set of 'if/then' pronouncements in once sense. Calvinism cannot see this as a logical series, since Calvinism has pronounced a 'then/then' progression, regardless of what the Bible says. Calvinism pronounces all 'ifs' as predestined, therefore negating the very meaning of the word.
It is this very lack of being Biblical which drives people away from Calvinistic churches and teachings. While I agree with 2BHizown regarding the megachurches and what they are often teaching, at least in the Western cultures, that has little or nothing to do with the lack of hope and meaning promoted by Calvinism.
When 'choose' no longer has meaning, when'repent' is predetermined, when 'world' must be redefined -- even nominal Christians, as well as biblical Christians, know better and will leave the church. If the Bible doesn't mean what it says, why pay attention to it? If it takes men to 'interpret' God's word, why should one man be better than another in the interpretation?
And if a man has no choice in his destiny, for many depression is not far behind. Either depression for oneself as being without hope, or depression for others whom one loves -- presumably more than God loves them...
If God doesn't love the world, but just a few select people, then why try? Why make the effort to search out the truth if it is not going to make any difference anyway?
Calvinism is the ultimate downer for many. I'm not saying that as a matter of rhetoric. I'm saying that because of the number of people Barry and I have ended up counselling who have been driven to despair because of Reformed doctrines.
It is this very lack of being Biblical which drives people away from Calvinistic churches and teachings. While I agree with 2BHizown regarding the megachurches and what they are often teaching, at least in the Western cultures, that has little or nothing to do with the lack of hope and meaning promoted by Calvinism.
When 'choose' no longer has meaning, when'repent' is predetermined, when 'world' must be redefined -- even nominal Christians, as well as biblical Christians, know better and will leave the church. If the Bible doesn't mean what it says, why pay attention to it? If it takes men to 'interpret' God's word, why should one man be better than another in the interpretation?
And if a man has no choice in his destiny, for many depression is not far behind. Either depression for oneself as being without hope, or depression for others whom one loves -- presumably more than God loves them...
If God doesn't love the world, but just a few select people, then why try? Why make the effort to search out the truth if it is not going to make any difference anyway?
Calvinism is the ultimate downer for many. I'm not saying that as a matter of rhetoric. I'm saying that because of the number of people Barry and I have ended up counselling who have been driven to despair because of Reformed doctrines.
One of the best descriptions yet to be read on this topic on this board.
Just like the "evolution" problem; just read the Bible AS IT IS WRITTEN, as a whole, with no selecting a verse here & there out of context to prove a predetermined point!!!!
One of the best descriptions yet to be read on this topic on this board.
Just like the "evolution" problem; just read the Bible AS IT IS WRITTEN, as a whole, with no selecting a verse here & there out of context to prove a predetermined point!!!! </font>[/QUOTE]That is an incredible denial of biblical truth, JWP! Your name indicates your desire to never offend but to always seek peace, no matter how much compromise may be involved! Peace in this world does not gaurantee the same in the world to come!
Calvinists continue to stress,(why do some have such difficulty with their understanding?) the adherence of their doctrines to scripture! All calvinist have no problem with creation, at all! Did you have an issue or question on which we could elaborate?
Blessings,