Calvinist Confusion

[robycop3]

Calvinism is just another false, man-made "ism" that pollutes Christianity.

 

[Revmitchell]

C

A person gets put "in Christ" from before the foundation of the world...that is what is written ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
God has chosen believers "in Christ" before the foundation of the world.
That's how a person gets "in Christ".

One cannot be in Christ if one is not born. (John 3:5-6) Ephesians 1:4-5 does not say individuals were chosen before they were ever born. It does say that because we are in Christ God chose, before the foundation of the world, that we, who are in Christ, are to be Holy and blameless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Wait.....are you seriously claiming that Christians did not resist God's grace?

I've even heard (somewhere....probably just rumor) that the Apostle Paul resisted God to the point someone even spoke of him as kicking against the goads.

I know C.S. Lewis resisted God's grace and even tried to reject Christianity. Martin Luther did not convert right off either.

I think you mean God prevails.

Those whom God intends to save will all get saved....

 

[Yeshua1]

OK.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree, which is fine.

I see the key words, "by nature", which I understand to mean, "before I was born again, I was, by nature, a child of wrath."

The children of God were no different, in their sin natures, than the children of the Devil before the work of the Holy Spirit made them born again.
That's how I see it now...but I didn't always see it that way.


May God bless you.

ONLY 2 kinds of people on earth, in Adam, or in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinism is just another false, man-made "ism" that pollutes Christianity.

Actually, far worse would be the theology of easy believing, free will responding!
The one that Charles Finny and his ilk brought in!

 

[Iconoclast]

C

One cannot be in Christ if one is not born. (John 3:5-6) Ephesians 1:4-5 does not say individuals were chosen before they were ever born. It does say that because we are in Christ God chose, before the foundation of the world, that we, who are in Christ, are to be Holy and blameless.

This is why RM. cannot find truth on this 2tim 1:9

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism is just another false, man-made "ism" that pollutes Christianity.

And yet you cannot give a biblical reason for your claim?

 

[Iconoclast]

One is not "His own" until he is "in Christ".

As RM continues to deny the Covenant of Redemption he cannot help but posterior after error. To read these posts is to suggest God is on a shopping trip, looking to see someone pick Him first, then He picks them and tucks them into union with Christ, the way you would pick oranges at the supermarket.

 

[JonC]

Actually, far worse would be the theology of easy believing, free will responding!
The one that Charles Finny and his ilk brought in!

I've never actually understood the "easy believism" charge linked to non-Calvinists.

Ask the Calvinist why he was saved. His conclusion? It's a mystery....nothing to do with him at all. What did he have to do? Nothing.

Ask the Free-will guy. Because God revealed Himself in a meaningful way and he chose to repent and believe. What did he have to do? The free-will guy actually had to choose to count it all loss and follow God.

"Free will theology" places so much on the person....I don't think that there is an easier position to believe than Calvinism.

 

[TCassidy]

Ask the Calvinist why he was saved. His conclusion? It's a mystery....nothing to do with him at all. What did he have to do? Nothing.

What qualifies you to tell me what I believe?

Why am I saved? Christ died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.

My conclusion is above. Not the false statement you claim to be my conclusion. He saved me according to the good pleasure of His Will.

What did I have to do? After He regenerated my sin sick soul I had to repent, believe, and obey. All enabled by His Regenerating Grace.

What did I have to do to earn Salvation? Nothing I do would have been good enough. If by grace it is no more works. If by works it is no more grace.

What did you do to earn your salvation?

 

[JonC]

What qualifies you to tell me what I believe?

You telling me what you believe insofar as men not contributing to their own salvation. Unless you changed your mind (and from your reply I see you haven't), then my assessment is correct. In terms of salvation, you believe that you have brought nothing to the table.

What did you do to earn your salvation?

I didn't do any thing to "earn" my salvation.

 

[JonC]

To clarify:

Calvinism is "easy believism" insofar as men go. Most Calvinists I have encountered believe that God's grace in salvation is not overruled by man. Most seem to at least mildly suggest that they did nothing in terms of contributing to their salvation. I am sure there are exceptions, but most appear to me to imply that they did not choose God but He chose them and did the work of changing them.

Again, this is only based on my experience dealing with Calvinists. I have taken other things away from my dealings with Calvinists that cause ne pause, but I agree with them on this part....hence my post.

The idea that men must contribute to their faith seems to place a requirement on man that most Calvinsts (all I know) reject. Calvinism is easire as it does not place a demand on man to contribute to his own salvation (excluding Calvinists who may believe otherwise, of course).

My objection was not God saving people but people linking "easy believism" to non-Calvinism (as evidenced by me quoting the post I was addressing).

 

[TCassidy]

Because you have told me what you believe

No, it isn't. Once again you just make this stuff up as you go along.

Quote one post of mine where I said "why he was saved. His conclusion? It's a mystery..."

 

[Yeshua1]

I've never actually understood the "easy believism" charge linked to non-Calvinists.

Ask the Calvinist why he was saved. His conclusion? It's a mystery....nothing to do with him at all. What did he have to do? Nothing.

Ask the Free-will guy. Because God revealed Himself in a meaningful way and he chose to repent and believe. What did he have to do? The free-will guy actually had to choose to count it all loss and follow God.

"Free will theology" places so much on the person....I don't think that there is an easier position to believe than Calvinism.

Hardest theology to hold with though, as it forces us to be reminded and mindful that we can and did NOTHING to save us, and human pride and will demands that we do something in the cause to get us saved us!

 

[Yeshua1]

I could be wrong (we've been here over 20 years, too much to go back and ponder).

So you can correct me...what are the reasons God chose to save you rather than Jim Jones (assuming Mr. Jones was not saved, of course)?

I believe that God chooses out of His own freedom and will. I believe that this is to man a mystery. Perhaps I just took for granted you also considered it a mystery.

The better question would be to non cal, why did God choose to save you, and not your neighbor?

 

[JonC]

The better question would be to non cal, why did God choose to save you, and not your neighbor?

I am a non-Cal. My answer is that's God's business. It's above our paygrade. The "why" is a mystery known only to God. At the same time, it is because the neighbor doesn't believe.

 

[JonC]

No, it isn't. Once again you just make this stuff up as you go along.

Quote one post of mine where I said "why he was saved. His conclusion? It's a mystery..."

Predestination would be covered by "Unconditional Election." There is nothing good enough in man to merit salvation. God, for His own purposes and according to His Perfect Will, elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin, justly condemned for their sin.

The "why" of that is a mystery known only to God. His ways are higher than our ways. He shows mercy on whom He will show mercy.

I don't know why, but I do know it is not due to any merit on my part.

. Spiritual vivification is a free, and to man mysterious, exercise of divine power (John 3:8), not explicable in terms of the combination or cultivation of existing human resources (John 3:6), not caused or induced by any human efforts (John 1:12-13) or merits (Titus 3:3-7), and not, therefore, to be equated with, or attributed to, any of the experiences, decisions, and acts to which it gives rise and by which it may be known to have taken place...Regeneration by J.I.Packer

However, when I make the statement that Christ actually saved me on the cross and did not merely enable me to save myself, what I mean is that it was all of Him and none of me. Not my faith as "non-Calvinists" (I will avoid using the "A" word ) like to assert, as even that was a gift from Him. This, to me, is the great mystery, how God goes about "distinguishing between people equally lost." But one thing I know is that it had nothing to do with any superiority in me, but only and exclusively according to His good pleasure.

 

[TCassidy]

One quote, completely out of context, using the word "mystery" in a way not even close to what you claim. Just as I suspected.

 

[JonC]

One quote, completely out of context, using the word "mystery" in a way not even close to what you claim. Just as I suspected.

What I was claiming is that the Calvinist does not know why God chose him and chalks that up to "mystery". I am using the word "mystery" to mean something God has not revealed to man and therefore beyond our knowledge.

This is EXACTLY what I was claiming:

God, for His own purposes and according to His Perfect Will, elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin, justly condemned for their sin.
The "why" of that is a mystery known only to God. His ways are higher than our ways. He shows mercy on whom He will show mercy.

Again - this "mystery" is EXACTLY what I am saying

...is that it was all of Him and none of me....This, to me, is the great mystery, how God goes about "distinguishing between people equally lost." But one thing I know is that it had nothing to do with any superiority in me, but only and exclusively according to His good pleasure.

What you are doing is trying to play games. I could do this here:

Not my faith as "non-Calvinists" (I will avoid using the "A" word ) like to assert, as even that was a gift from Him.

I am a non-Calvinist. How can you pretend to tell me what I believe???? Prove that I like to assert that I was saved by "my faith" not acknowledging even that was a work of God.

(I suspect you are simply being disagreeable rather than there being an actual disagreement. I believe you know this. But perhaps you don't.).

 

[Dave G]

What I was claiming is that the Calvinist does not know why God chose him and chalks that up to "mystery".

Again, and I'm sure I posted this somewhere...

I'm not sure what a "Calvinist" is, since I've never run across anyone who adheres strictly to the teachings of John Calvin, except perhaps some "Reformed" folks.
In the strictest sense then, I am a "non-Calvinist", since I don't agree with everything he taught or wrote.
Now...I do know people, and even whole churches, that adhere strictly to the teachings of John Wesley, and they're called "Wesleyans" and "Methodists".

I don't know of any churches named, "Heritage Calvinist Church" for example...but we have a "franchised one" in my area called "Heritage Wesleyan", which has changed its name to just "Heritage Church".
They have "campuses".

But, I disgress...
Since people would label me a "Calvinist", this is the reason that I am saved:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:3-6 )

That is why I am saved, according to God's word.
I don't chalk it up to mystery, per se, it's just a mystery to me why God would bother with a slug like me.