Calvinist or Arminian

[rbell]

Where is it written that there is some continuum out there, and that we must place ourselves somewhere along that "line," running from Calvinism to Arminianism?

Isn't that like going up to an NFL football player and saying, "So, are you a Steeler, a Seahawk, or somewhere between the two?"

But then again...I'm a student minister...so I might just be confused...

 

[Tom Butler]

shannonL said

I don't see how God can offer salvation to whosoever will without His atoning work on the cross being sufficent enough to back up the promise of "whosoever will".

He can because He has chosen the whosoever wills, therefore knows exactly how many there will be. That number is fixed, so there is no need for an atonement for the whosoever mights, because they won't, or the whosoever won'ts because they won't either. Dr. Bob was deliberate in his choice of words "God the Son actually atones for those selected ones' sins". The Arminian holds that Jesus' death did not actually save anyone, only made it possible, and guarantees the salvation of no one. But Jesus said he came to seek and to save, not to seek and possibly save.

Tom B

 

[webdog]

He can because He has chosen the whosoever wills, therefore knows exactly how many there will be.

Do you even see the problem with this phrase? He has chosen the whosoever will ...will meaning choice. Oldregular highlighted parts of Ephesians 1. The link throughout this chapter is "in Christ"....these are the elect. Those who are in Christ (who was chosen from the foundation of the world) are the elect.

The Arminian holds that Jesus' death did not actually save anyone, only made it possible, and guarantees the salvation of no one.

This is not the arminian position, but the Bible's. We are saved by grace through faith . It is faith in Christ's work that saves. Christ paid the penalty of sin for mankind. It is left to us to choose whether to accept His gift.

 

[Andy T.]

I'm glad that it wasn't up to me to choose Christ. Otherwise, I'd be doomed.

 

[webdog]

So are you claiming you are not saved?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I am not a calvinist but I agree with Dr. Bob also. You see I just don't allow calvinist to twist scriptures and redefine terms to meet or make thier theology. If you don't let them change meanings and words "I" find their theology very weak indeed. And I say that because I am no scholar and it is easy for me to see they ain't got it right!

If you agree with Dr Bob... you are a calvinist.

That is basically what we believe.... very succinct and extremely well put I might add.

 

[Andy T.]

On the contrary - saved by grace. If it was up to myself to choose Christ, I never would. But He gave me a new heart.

You can despise my testimony all you want, but there it is.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:


REPLY-It is true that God convicts the sinner of his sin by his word and his Spirit, but this does not mean he FORCES one to accept his Son as his Savior. This is a false teaching of Calvinism.

Actually, I think it is a straw man of your construction. God no more forces one to accept His Son as Savior than one is "forced" to be born... or Lazarus was "forced" to come back to life when Jesus called him.

These things were neither the choices of the objects of the actions nor were they violations of their will.

Man when convicted by the Spirit and the word of God must BE WILLING to receive the gospel message and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the whoso ever WILL that comes to Christ and not the whosoever HAD TO that has come to the Lord. God hogties no one to heaven.Choose ye this day who ye will serve.Deut 30:19

Who are the willing? The good? The smart? The wise? For exactly what reason do you say that they are willing?

I say it is because God quickened their dead spirit like Christ quickened Lazarus' dead body.

I view each genuine salvation as a miracle... not a humanistic, man exalting "decision". Decisions are the result of a process of work no matter how you slice it or dice it. The decision to repent and believe is either the result of a good work done in us by the Spirit or a good work done by us.

 

[webdog]

I'm saved by grace also...through faith. This faith came from believing in Christ after being drawn by Him, as He draws every single person who ever existed (John 12:32, Ecc. 3:11). This is still a legitimate choice that was commanded to make to receive eternal life. Man does have to choose Christ on his own.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by webdog:
I'm saved by grace also...through faith. This faith came from believing in Christ after being drawn by Him, as He draws every single person who ever existed (John 12:32, Ecc. 3:11). This is still a legitimate choice that was commanded to make to receive eternal life. Man does have to choose Christ on his own.

webdog,

So then, you got saved because of the faith that you had in your fallen man? Is that what you are saying? If so, then why did you "choose" Christ and others not? If they have the same potential to "receive" Christ as you, then why do some perish? I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I am genuinely asking for your perspective on this.

Why did you "choose" Christ and another person not? What is the difference?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> He can because He has chosen the whosoever wills, therefore knows exactly how many there will be.

Do you even see the problem with this phrase? He has chosen the whosoever will ...will meaning choice. Oldregular highlighted parts of Ephesians 1. The link throughout this chapter is "in Christ"....these are the elect. Those who are in Christ (who was chosen from the foundation of the world) are the elect.

The Arminian holds that Jesus' death did not actually save anyone, only made it possible, and guarantees the salvation of no one.

This is not the arminian position, but the Bible's. We are saved by grace through faith . It is faith in Christ's work that saves. Christ paid the penalty of sin for mankind. It is left to us to choose whether to accept His gift. </font>[/QUOTE]You misinterpret the passage: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

He chose us before the foundation of the world. The "in Him" refers to the necessary atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Scott J:
I say it is because God quickened their dead spirit like Christ quickened Lazarus' dead body.

Good point Scott!

 

[webdog]

You misinterpret the passage: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

He chose us before the foundation of the world. The "in Him" refers to the necessary atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I disagree. The "in Him" is an extension of the phrase, with everything linked "in Him".

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ , according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved .
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him , things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints,

If you are not "in Him"...you are not elect!

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
I say it is because God quickened their dead spirit like Christ quickened Lazarus' dead body.

Good point Scott! </font>[/QUOTE]Not really. Comparing physical death to spiritual separation is not a good comparison.

 

[Scott J]

Why are we "in Him"? Is it because we are good or make a good decision or because He is good and gracious?

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Why are we "in Him"? Is it because we are good or make a good decision or because He is good and gracious?

Good, no... good decision, absolutely...He is good and gracious, absolutely.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
I say it is because God quickened their dead spirit like Christ quickened Lazarus' dead body.

Good point Scott! </font>[/QUOTE]Not really. Comparing physical death to spiritual separation is not a good comparison. </font>[/QUOTE]Then why did God do it? It wasn't necessary to say we were spiritually dead... not at all. Yet he did it. Further, he premised salvation on spiritual rebirth in John 3.

Your argument isn't with me. It is with God since I just said what He said... the lost are spiritually dead. If there are no parallels to physical death then the word becomes pointless and should have been replaced with a more appropriate word.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
3. God the Father selects certain damned-to-hell individuals to be the recipients of His unmerited grace

Why me ?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Why are we "in Him"? Is it because we are good or make a good decision or because He is good and gracious?

Good, no... good decision, absolutely...He is good and gracious, absolutely. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for a straight answer... I have found those very rare from your side.

But as to your answer, it is unbiblical. A decision is the result of a process of work. Every decision is so even if the work isn't planned.

You might say I didn't think, I just reacted... but still, that reaction was due to decisions and thoughts you have been conditioned with.

But in this case, the work certainly is planned. One hears the gospel, considers it, then decides whether to make that "good choice" or not. Sorry but scripture declares that it is not the result of good we have done.

BTW, how can a person who is not "good" make a "good" decision? They would have to have some "goodness" or else they would choose "bad", right?

 

[webdog]

So then, you got saved because of the faith that you had in your fallen man?

I'm not sure I understand this question. If you are asking if it's the ability to have faith while fallen, I agree. All men were created with the ability to have faith. Every human uses "faith" in something every single day. Faith alone in Christ is what saves, however.

If so, then why did you "choose" Christ and others not?

I can't speak for others, but I know why I did.

If they have the same potential to "receive" Christ as you, then why do some perish?

They fail to make Christ the Lord of their life. This is Christianity 101.

Why did you "choose" Christ and another person not? What is the difference?

Again, I can't speak for why some do not choose Christ. Why do some choose buddah? allah? baal? If they did not have the ability to choose, the commandment "you shall have no other gods before Me" is ridiculous.