Calvinist or Arminian

A "choice" is not a good work. If you can't get past that, you will not understand anything.

It amazes me to think that there are people out there who think at Christmas that the act of receiving a gift means they either:
A. Have something good within themselves to warran the gift.
B. They make a good "evaluated" decision to accept the gift meaning they must have goodness within them.
C. Acceptance of the gift means the very act of giving and accepting becomes dependant on the receiver's thought process.
D. There is an "underlying motive" in accepting a free gift.

Regenerated
REGEN'ERATED, pp.

1. Reproduced.

2. Renewed; born again

It's heretical to claim that one is "born again" prior to having faith! I will never "bring myself" to claim something so false.

 

Kind of like "read my lips, NO NEW TAXES!"

 

A choice is a result of an evaluation. That evaluation is a "good work" if you choose to accept Christ. Now, the cause of that good work is either a) God or b) something within the man.

I can't get "past that" because it is untrue. You nor anyone else has ever made a choice without cause... but that isn't even what you are claiming. You are claiming that the choice is the result of an evaluation performed by a sinful person... but that somehow the choice is not dependent on that "goodness" of that evaluation.

You are good so far.

If one "chooses" to accept a gift that will benefit them then certainly that choice was a process of thought (work) resulting in a "good" result that would not have existed had the choice been to reject the gift.

Yes. If someone is offered a "gift" that they can choose to accept or reject based on the benefit to them... then it requires some "goodness" within them to choose correctly.

Not only that but if that gift means rejecting something else that is naturally attractive to you then it most definitely involves "goodness" of some sort. For instance, if the gift requires you to forsake other gifts...

It does...! Especially if the "gift" comes with a choice of "gifts" and givers.

Again, if receiving one gift means that you must forsake another... then yes, motive is vital.

Regenerated
REGEN'ERATED, pp.

1. Reproduced.

2. Renewed; born again

It's heretical to claim that one is "born again" prior to having faith! I will never "bring myself" to claim something so false. </font>[/QUOTE]No it isn't. It is precisely what Jesus said in John 3. He didn't say you must "choose" to be born again... He said you must be born again.

If "new birth" has any value as an analogy it must relate to "birth" as we understand it.... and conception and birth are not the products of a baby's free will choice. In fact, verse 12 qualifies the analogy. In verse 8, we are told that "8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” IOW's, the Spirit moves first and inperceptibly.

 

John 3:8 is speaking of the Spirit's invisible influence being everywhere and unexplainable , something I think calvinism does try to explain. I believe this is manifested later in 12:32. I'm not disagreeing about the Spirit working first in man's life. I am disagreeing about your manner of thought process in receiving a gift.

 

I doubt we disagree about that process.

It is the Spirit's influence that causes the new birth being discussed "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".

My HS physics teacher said something profound one time when asked about his thoughts on evolution (he was also a deacon in our church and a biblical creationist).

He said that evolution could account for "hows" but not "whys".

And that is my basic point. The "why" is that God acts on the person first in a way that frees them to follow that series of "hows" to be saved. I don't believe the "why" is ultimately because a person made either a thoughtful much less an arbitrary decision.

 

I doubt we disagree about that process.

It is the Spirit's influence that causes the new birth being discussed "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".

My HS physics teacher said something profound one time when asked about his thoughts on evolution (he was also a deacon in our church and a biblical creationist).

He said that evolution could account for "hows" but not "whys".

And that is my basic point. The "why" is that God acts on the person first in a way that frees them to follow that series of "hows" to be saved. I don't believe the "why" is ultimately because a person made either a thoughtful much less an arbitrary decision.

 

I doubt we disagree about that process.

It is the Spirit's influence that causes the new birth being discussed "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".

My HS physics teacher said something profound one time when asked about his thoughts on evolution (he was also a deacon in our church and a biblical creationist).

He said that evolution could account for "hows" but not "whys".

And that is my basic point. The "why" is that God acts on the person first in a way that frees them to follow that series of "hows" to be saved. I don't believe the "why" is ultimately because a person made either a thoughtful much less an arbitrary decision.