Calvinist preachers, teachers, theologians

[Allan]

I agree Decrees are in the bible James, and did not state they were NOT there.

What I was alluding to was the some decrees can be argued and some are postulated and others are actually there, but all were put together to better show the system of Calvinistic theology.

And yes, they use scripture to show where a decree IS, or is ALLUDED to (thus the postulation).

But if it can be contextually argued in that it shows a differing view but same truth it is not a clear representation of Fact and therefore an obvious View of Fact.

True?

 

[Pastor Larry]

So how does God pick and choose who He hates and loves?

You tell us, its the Calvinist that says unless you are picked by God to have your heart changed then you are going to hell.

The Bible tells us that. God picks us by his grace, not because of what we have done, but by his mercy.

 

[Jarthur001]

I agree Decrees are in the bible James, and did not state they were NOT there.

What I was alluding to was the some decrees can be argued and some are postulated and others are actually there, but all were put together to better show the system of Calvinistic theology.

And yes, they use scripture to show where a decree IS, or is ALLUDED to (thus the postulation).

But if it can be contextually argued in that it shows a differing view but same truth it is not a clear representation of Fact and therefore an obvious View of Fact.

True?

Those decrees that your alluded to, lets look at one decree that you do not agree with and we will see if its in the Bible.

 

[Jim1999]

Why don't we start by giving the typical Baptist view of the decrees:

1. The decree to create;
2. The decree to permit the fall;
3. The decree to provide a salvation in Christ sufficient for all;
4. The decree to secure the actual acceptance of this salvation on the part of some, or, the decree pf election.
A.H. Strong, Baptist theolgian, Systematic Theology, p. 778.

There are some who take that superior position that, "I don't bother with man-made theology. I just preach the word, the Bible."

Show me where the above is not biblical.

We cannot just take the age-old saying"
"Judas went and hanged himself." "Go, and do thou likewise"....and "whatsoever thou does, do quickly." It may be biblical, but it isn't right.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[jne1611]

That is about as false as anyone can say.
We say He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

What bothers me that some think God is so small that He couldn't create man in His Soverneignty, know that He was creating him subject to vanity and the devil would be tempting him and God's Spirit would be stiving with man also and God gave man the ability to either choose good or evil.

Even the Calvinist say man had a choice before the fall but Jesus stood as a slain lamb even when the Calvinist say man had freewill.

We don't take anything away from God. Its you that take away from God saying that He can't make man able to choose. You also have to change so many words. Speaking of "all" now and cannot take it as "all", but try to change it to some.
Amen,

You can't get much smaller Bob, than putting God on mans leash. And who said He can't make man able to choose? That is exactly what I believe. I just don't believe that He has made all mankind able to choose. And there is nothing false about what I said of your theory. You base God's works with men on His foreknowledge of what is going to happen in the future. If man chooses God, God chooses man. etc. In the end your whole doctrine ends up with man being the determiner of what God does. It always has & as long as you hold to it, it always will.

 

[Jarthur001]

Why don't we start by giving the typical Baptist view of the decrees:

1. The decree to create;
2. The decree to permit the fall;
3. The decree to provide a salvation in Christ sufficient for all;
4. The decree to secure the actual acceptance of this salvation on the part of some, or, the decree pf election.
A.H. Strong, Baptist theolgian, Systematic Theology, p. 778.

There are some who take that superior position that, "I don't bother with man-made theology. I just preach the word, the Bible."

Show me where the above is not biblical.

We cannot just take the age-old saying"
"Judas went and hanged himself." "Go, and do thou likewise"....and "whatsoever thou does, do quickly." It may be biblical, but it isn't right.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim,

I would have to agree, that these decrees are in fact biblical, and I cannot see why anyone in the Baptist faith would reject them.


In Christ..James

 

[jne1611]

Jim,

I would have to agree, that these decrees are in fact biblical, and I cannot see why anyone in the Baptist faith would reject them.


In Christ..James

Same here.:thumbs:

 

[Jarthur001]

You can't get much smaller Bob, than putting God on mans leash. And who said He can't make man able to choose? That is exactly what I believe. I just don't believe that He has made all mankind able to choose. And there is nothing false about what I said of your theory. You base God's works with men on His foreknowledge of what is going to happen in the future. If man chooses God, God chooses man. etc. In the end your whole doctrine ends up with man being the determiner of what God does. It always has & as long as you hold to it, it always will.

Hello Brother,

Would you not agree with me, that being that some would claim God would never choose one man over another, for this is not part of Gods nature, being as they claim, that God loves all men the same way....Would you not agree with me that if one believes this is the "all in all" of what God is about, that being God loves every man in the same way, that one would only need to show that choosing one over another is very much part of Gods nature?

Would you not agree that this can be shown not once nor just a few times, but over and over again thoughout the Bible? Would you not say that it is in fact very much part of Gods nature, for this is how we read of Him in His Holy Word?


Thanks for your input.


In Christ...James

 

[jne1611]

Hello Brother,

Would you not agree with me, that being that some would claim God would never choose one man over another, for this is not part of Gods nature, being as they claim, that God loves all men the same way....Would you not agree with me that if one believes this is the "all in all" of what God is about, that being God loves every man in the same way, that one would only need to show that choosing one over another is very much part of Gods nature?

Would you not agree that this can be shown not once nor just a few times, but over and over again thoughout the Bible? Would you not say that it is in fact very much part of Gods nature, for this is how we read of Him in His Holy Word?


Thanks for your input.


In Christ...James

Absolutely. It all boils down to what man thinks of God's ways. If he sees something in those ways that appears to be unfair, then he knows that if he does not fix that, then he has to admit that God is not bound by his standard of emotion, fairness, etc. Men can not stand the idea that God makes His decisions independent of them.
What Bob said of me being no better than anyone else for example, shows that he has his eyes closed to everything I have said. I have not attempted to prove the elect better than anyone else. I have attempted to show that if there is any thing different about them than the rest, God made that difference. Kinda funny when you think about it. They argue all the way that God will not do by one and then not do by another. Then those same fellas talk of them being called to preach. What makes them so special? What makes them think God called them & not their whole congregation? Why depart here from the notion of equality? Fair and unfair?
The truth of the whole matter is that they seek for God to be soverighn in every area but salvation! They can trust His soverighn will in every area but the area that matters most. You tell them that you are going through a trial, They say "God has everything under control". You have lost a family member, "God has everything under control. etc. Then you bring up salvation. "OH man determines that"! God wants to save him, but alas, at best, all he can do is want, Man has the final control over that. And then, now that he is saved, he can never be lost! God is back in control!

 

[Jim1999]

Condemnation of humanity is not an arbitrary sovereign act of God, but rather an act of justice demanded by God's holiness and man's guilt in the fall. His choice of certain unto salvation is His sovereign choice. Here we can look at Rom.2:6-11 and 1 Peter 1:2.

God has throughout scripture shown abritrary choices of love and hate. So much for the sentiment, "God wouldn't......"

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Allan]

Jauthor:
Again, I did not say I did not agree with them, I said there are some decrees we hold to that are alluded to in scripture but never out right stated.

Take the decree to allow man to fall or the decree of mans fall.
We know it is true but there is not a scripture that states God decreed He would allow man TO fall or that states God decreed or established that man WILL HAVE TO fall. But we do know that He knew Man WOULD Fall and therefore [logic] concludes within context a decree is made. I state this since Logic is not supposed to be a key player in Calvinistic theology However it system is based on the logical sequence of how and when these decrees played out that seperates Supra - Infra

Now it is very possible that I am wrong, so I have no problem with being educated in my lack.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Jauthor:
Again, I did not say I did not agree with them, I said there are some decrees we hold to that are alluded to in scripture but never out right stated.

Take the decree to allow man to fall or the decree of mans fall.
We know it is true but there is not a scripture that states God decreed He would allow man TO fall or that states God decreed or established that man WILL HAVE TO fall. But we do know that He knew Man WOULD Fall and therefore [logic] concludes within context a decree is made. I state this since Logic is not supposed to be a key player in Calvinistic theology However it system is based on the logical sequence of how and when these decrees played out that seperates Supra - Infra

Now it is very possible that I am wrong, so I have no problem with being educated in my lack.

Ok logic. Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Since He is the Lamb who is slain before the foundation of the world (before creation) could Adam and Eve have not fallen? I say no, because of the fact (scripture) that He was already predestined to be slain beforehand.

 

[webdog]

Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Since He is the Lamb who is slain before the foundation of the world (before creation) could Adam and Eve have not fallen?

You inserted your own logic. Before the world means simply that...not before creation, but before time. Time began with the creation of the world, as it is nothing more than measurement. Inserting before creation into the equation bounds an infinite God to time.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You inserted your own logic. Before the world means simply that...not before creation, but before time. Time began with the creation of the world, as it is nothing more than measurement. Inserting before creation into the equation bounds an infinite God to time.

Ummmm........ before creation is before time since time is created. What did I say that does not make sense to you webdog? How would what you imply change what i'm saying? I'm saying that Adam and Eve could not have chosen any different than they did, because its obvious that God decreed Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. What part of that do you not understand?

 

[Jarthur001]

You inserted your own logic. Before the world means simply that...not before creation, but before time. Time began with the creation of the world, as it is nothing more than measurement. Inserting before creation into the equation bounds an infinite God to time.

I do not follow this "logic" at all. Does not ...."before the foundation of the world" = (before creation) ???

 

[jne1611]

I do not follow this "logic" at all. Does not ...."before the foundation of the world" = (before creation) ???

:thumbs: Sure it does.

 

[Allan]

However, where you place the lamb being slain will determine if you hold to single predestination or double. If He is slaim before man falls, you have an obvious deciding that God intends to save but who since the decree to fall was not yet given and therefore double-pre. Fall first and then Lamb slain CAN be seen as a single or double-pre, but is mostly interpreted by Calvinists to be single-pre.

But here is the problem I stated. The ACTUAL decree is not found in scripture it is a postulation or assumption. It is a decree MADE by LOGIC not SCRIPTURE.

 

[jne1611]

However, where you place the lamb being slain will determine if you hold to single predestination or double. If He is slaim before man falls, you have an obvious deciding that God intends to save but who since the decree to fall was not yet given and therefore double-pre. Fall first and then Lamb slain CAN be seen as a single or double-pre, but is mostly interpreted by Calvinists to be single-pre.

But here is the problem I stated. The ACTUAL decree is not found in scripture it is a postulation or assumption. It is a decree MADE by LOGIC not SCRIPTURE.

So. Exactly what are you driving at. Not being smart, but what point are you making? In essence. What exactly is your position on the subject Allan? I'll look for your answer tomorrow.


Got To Get Some Sleep. Coffee Is Wearing Off.


http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb097_ZNxpt237YYUS&utm_id=7925

 

[Jarthur001]

However, where you place the lamb being slain will determine if you hold to single predestination or double. If He is slaim before man falls, you have an obvious deciding that God intends to save but who since the decree to fall was not yet given and therefore double-pre. Fall first and then Lamb slain CAN be seen as a single or double-pre, but is mostly interpreted by Calvinists to be single-pre.

But here is the problem I stated. The ACTUAL decree is not found in scripture it is a postulation or assumption. It is a decree MADE by LOGIC not SCRIPTURE.

Not really. In the OT salvation was though faith, but faith in the coming of the Christ. In the OT they looked forward. In the OT the lamb was but a picture of the coming LAMB.

In the NT we look back to the cross.

Same faith.
Same Christ.
Same atonement.


Last...what decree is not found in the Bible?

 

[webdog]

Ummmm........ before creation is before time since time is created.

"Before" is a time quotient. Outside of time would be more accurate.