Calvinists & Arminian Together

[RLBosley]

All I said is that non-Cals and Calvinists do not preach the same gospel.

And that is absolutely true.

What did Paul say?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

How can you preach a false gospel and be saved?

Somebody is in trouble.

"All" you said is Calvinism teaches a different gospel and is under the anathema of Galatians 1.

Do you comprehend the severity of what you just said?

 

[Rippon]

"All" you said is Calvinism teaches a different gospel and is under the anathema of Galatians 1.

Do you comprehend the severity of what you just said?

Oh I am perfectly certain he knows. He wants to think that all Calvinists are "under the ban" as it is sometimes called.

Winman is totally wrong theologically, but he intentionally uses language to make it seem as if Calvinists are unsaved. Of course that means he has to devote lots of energy to turn Scripture on its head and to give himself over to slamming Calvinists with the most banal of charges. He is committed to his cause. And that means any and all things must subvert these evil Calvinists according to his viewpoint.

Is it acceptable conduct for a Christian to do what he has spent thousands of posts doing? In a word --no. He should feel shame --but some cannot even blush the Bible says.

 

[JonC]

What did Paul say?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

How can you preach a false gospel and be saved?

Somebody is in trouble.

It's not a question for me...I believe you are speaking of differences in understanding of the same gospel. Being saved in an Arminian church and later becoming more "calvinistic" in my beliefs...well....the gospel I believe has not changed at all although my understanding has. To answer your question, correct doctrine is not essential for salvation. Paul is speaking of the gospel and false teachers.

The question is for you. Are you saying that Calvinists are not saved?

 

[RLBosley]

Oh I am perfectly certain he knows. He wants to think that all Calvinists are "under the ban" as it is sometimes called.

Winman is totally wrong theologically, but he intentioanlly uses language to make it seem as if Calvinists are unsaved. Of course that means he has to devote lots of energy to turn Scripture on its head and to give himself over to slamming Calvinists with the most banal of charges. He is committed to his cause. And that means any and all things must subvert these evil Calvinists according to his viewpoint.

Is it acceptable conduct for a Christian to do what he has spent thousands of posts doing? In a word --no. He should feel shame --but some cannot even blush the Bible says.

Spot on.

I am sure he understands it as well, but I was hoping maybe he doesn't. There are only select few groups I would dare utter something like Galatians 18 against. NEVER would I say that about the arminians here. Unbelievable.

Of course that means he has to devote lots of energy to turn Scripture on its head and to give himself over to slamming Calvinists with the most banal of charges.

Yes. Like saying the teaching of the effectual inward call of salvation is no different than the "visions" of the false prophets of Mormonism and Islam.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2141975&postcount=291

 

[JonC]

I drink beer! :laugh:

Aecht Schlenkeria Rauchbier sounds right up your alley. I lived near the brewery for years...smelled like a hint burnt brownies in the evenings.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Revmitchell]

I have had Winman blocked for at least six months, so I am mercifully spared from his inane comments. But even when you block someone you can see snippets of their comments when others quote them. I let most stupid comments pass these days, but this matter of preaching a false gospel is just too egregious to ignore.



Is it too much to ask that an adult participant on this board possess even a rudimentary knowledge of the Word of God? There are degrees of error. Not all error imperils the human soul. Some errors logically lead to an imperiled conclusion, but are graciously interrupted by what are called 'happy inconsistencies'. In Galatians 1:8-9 Paul was condemning a very specific type of false gospel; the false gospel of the Judaizers. The falseness of their gospel was not a disagreement over election and predestination. It was a works-based righteousness.



Proof is provided in Galatians 2:11-21 when Paul confronted Peter because Peter strayed into the hypocrisy of giving deference to the Jews at the expense of the Gentile brethren. Such was the power of the enormous pressure that was placed on the Galatian church by the Judaizers. Their's was truly a false gospel because it denied the sufficiency of Christ.





Actually Winman became pigeon-holed by his own argument. Instead of humbly admitting he was wrong, he doubled down and all but said that Calvinists are not saved. Predictable, but sad.

To be fair many of the reformed posts all but say the same thing about noncals. With that said unless one asserts Calvinism is the gospel reformed folks are not preaching another gospel.

 

[convicted1]

It sits fine with me as it is merely a strawman representation of our beliefs. He knows this...he used to speak out against such juvenile debate. That is what happens when one starts adhering to your doctrine, intellectual dishonesty follows.

My response was to Wes' assertion that sinners do tie God's hands. You don't take offense to that statement?

 

[Winman]

My response was to Wes' assertion that sinners do tie God's hands. You don't take offense to that statement?

I do not recall ever saying that men "tie" God's hands.

But men do frustrate God. Jesus lamented that he would have gathered all of Jerusalem to himself as a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and they would not come to him.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

This verse makes no sense whatsoever if Calvinism is true. Calvinism teaches that God "passes by" the non-elect and allows them to perish in their sins.

If so, why is Jesus lamenting over those persons who will not come to him? According to Calvinism, God has not chosen these persons. Obviously, God does not want these non-elect persons to come to him, because if he did he would simply irresistibly regenerate them and they would come.

You used to understand how absurd and non-sensical this verse would be if Calvinism was true Willis, but you have allowed yourself to be blinded by false doctrine.

Surely, some part of you still recognizes how ridiculous this scripture would be if Calvinism is true Willis?? Nobody can be that far gone.

 

[convicted1]

Oh yes you did! I know for a fact you did. I don't know how to find it, but you, in fact, stated sinners tie God's hands.

 

[salzer mtn]

Believe it or not there are many Cals in real life, maybe not on this board that are just as hard on non-cals as Wineman is on Cals. I have heard one say in the pulpit he hated Arminian's, and used the scripture Psa 139:22 where David said I hate them with a perfect hatred. I told my wife, a preacher is not supposed to preach hate out of the pulpit. Christ said to love your enemies that men might see that you are the children of God. I am constantly hearing out of this same man's pulpit that free willer's are not saved. Just last Sunday the guy said if a man left sovereign grace gospel and went to the free will church he had committed the un-pardonable sin. I've heard him say every thing from a woman that works don't know Christ to if a Christian couple files for a divorce, the one that filed first don't know Christ. So there seems to be enough hatred on both sides to go around.

 

[convicted1]

Here ya go Wes:

Wow, Willis, two years ago you would have answered this question in a heartbeat.

YES, men tie God's hands. God calls and beckons, he does everything he can to get a man to come to him for salvation, but men refuse to come.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Did Jesus say he desired and willed to save the people of Jerusalem? Would they let him?

You would have answered this yourself a short time ago, I am amazed you could forget.

Post #98 in the "sincerity" thread in the Cal/Arm forum...

 

[Reformed]

To be fair many of the reformed posts all but say the same thing about noncals. With that said unless one asserts Calvinism is the gospel reformed folks are not preaching another gospel.

Good morning, Rev.

I agree that the same type of criticism can be levied on those in the Calvinist/Reformed camp. There are Calvinists who actually believe that unless a person is a Calvinist they cannot be saved. I would rebuke them as sharply as I did Winman.

I am sure you are familiar with Spurgeon's famous quote, "Calvinism is the Gospel". Spurgeon was not saying that only Calvinists can be saved. What he was saying is that Calvinism is the correct understanding of the Gospel. As a Calvinist I would obviously agree with Spurgeon's statement just as a Dispensationalist would argue that his eschatological system is the correct understanding of eschatology. It doesn't mean a Covenant Theology adherent is unsaved. It just means the Dispensationalist is completely convinced his understanding is correct. It is when someone says "Calvinism is the Gospel", and condemns those who do not hold to Calvinism, that they have committed an egregious sin. That is why I took exception to what Winman wrote.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am sure you are familiar with Spurgeon's famous quote, "Calvinism is the Gospel". Spurgeon was not saying that only Calvinists can be saved. What he was saying is that Calvinism is the correct understanding of the Gospel.

Those two are the same thing.

 

[Winman]

Here ya go Wes:

Post #98 in the "sincerity" thread in the Cal/Arm forum...

OK, I stand corrected. I did not remember saying that, that is not normally a figure of speech I would use. I was probably responding to someone who had used that figure of speech. Either way, I stand corrected and see I did use that term.

Now Willis, answer Matthew 23:37; Does this verse make sense if Calvinism is true?

If God intentionally passes by the non-elect, and these persons cannot possibly come to him, why would Jesus lament that he desired to gather them and they would not come?

This has several problems, first, Jesus desired that they come to him. Did Jesus desire things his Father did not desire? Does that make sense?

And why would Jesus lament over these folks? If he truly wanted to gather them, couldn't he easily have regenerated them and caused them to irresistibly come to him?

How in the world can this verse make sense if your doctrine is true Willis?

 

[Winman]

Good morning, Rev.

I agree that the same type of criticism can be levied on those in the Calvinist/Reformed camp. There are Calvinists who actually believe that unless a person is a Calvinist they cannot be saved. I would rebuke them as sharply as I did Winman.

I am sure you are familiar with Spurgeon's famous quote, "Calvinism is the Gospel". Spurgeon was not saying that only Calvinists can be saved. What he was saying is that Calvinism is the correct understanding of the Gospel. As a Calvinist I would obviously agree with Spurgeon's statement just as a Dispensationalist would argue that his eschatological system is the correct understanding of eschatology. It doesn't mean a Covenant Theology adherent is unsaved. It just means the Dispensationalist is completely convinced his understanding is correct. It is when someone says "Calvinism is the Gospel", and condemns those who do not hold to Calvinism, that they have committed an egregious sin. That is why I took exception to what Winman wrote.

No, Spurgeon was way off here. Calvinism is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died for OUR sins on the cross, and that after three days he was raised from the dead according to the scriptures. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "Doctrines of Grace" or "TULIP".

If Calvinism were the gospel as Spurgeon said, then you would need to believe Calvinism to be saved. Horrendous!

 

[convicted1]

To be perfectly honest, that verse...Matt. 23:37 does give me a pause. Could it be Christ crying out as a man? I honestly don't know. But when you look at Eze. 34, John 6, 10, 17, Romans 8:28-33, Phpps 2:13, Eph. 1:4,5, Romans 9:16, John 1:13, they all link together, imo...

 

[Rippon]

To add to what Reformed said, I will quote a snip from his sermon :A Defense of Calvinism:

"There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross..."

 

[convicted1]

Then study out those two verses in my sig, Bro. Wes...

 

[Winman]

Believe it or not there are many Cals in real life, maybe not on this board that are just as hard on non-cals as Wineman is on Cals. I have heard one say in the pulpit he hated Arminian's, and used the scripture Psa 139:22 where David said I hate them with a perfect hatred. I told my wife, a preacher is not supposed to preach hate out of the pulpit. Christ said to love your enemies that men might see that you are the children of God. I am constantly hearing out of this same man's pulpit that free willer's are not saved. Just last Sunday the guy said if a man left sovereign grace gospel and went to the free will church he had committed the un-pardonable sin. I've heard him say every thing from a woman that works don't know Christ to if a Christian couple files for a divorce, the one that filed first don't know Christ. So there seems to be enough hatred on both sides to go around.

I have nothing against Calvinists personally, I simply believe Calvinism is a false doctrine. I don't just say that like some folks do, I provide scripture over, and over, and over again to support my view.

No one ever refutes the scripture I present, they just say it is wrong. That is not an argument.

But when a Calvinist presents their view, say Irresistible Grace for example, I present scripture that clearly refutes it;

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

See, God calls men to come to the wedding of his son. They are bidden. And God is sincere, he means it. When these folks refuse to listen and come he destroys them. This utterly refutes Irresistible Grace.

I don't hate Calvinists at all, but I do hate Calvinism, it is false doctrine.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything.

 

[convicted1]

I have nothing against Calvinists personally, I simply believe Calvinism is a false doctrine. I don't just say that like some folks do, I provide scripture over, and over, and over again to support my view.

No one ever refutes the scripture I present, they just say it is wrong. That is not an argument.

But when a Calvinist presents their view, say Irresistible Grace for example, I present scripture that clearly refutes it;

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

See, God calls men to come to the wedding of his son. They are bidden. And God is sincere, he means it. When these folks refuse to listen and come he destroys them. This utterly refutes Irresistible Grace.

I don't hate Calvinists at all, but I do hate Calvinism, it is false doctrine.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything.

That passage is a picture of the gospel call by men. It's a universal call to all to repent and be reconciled to God. The effectual call, that which is solely of God, Christ addressed in John 6...