Calvinists & Arminian Together

[steaver]

Believe it or not there are many Cals in real life, maybe not on this board that are just as hard on non-cals as Wineman is on Cals. I have heard one say in the pulpit he hated Arminian's, and used the scripture Psa 139:22 where David said I hate them with a perfect hatred. I told my wife, a preacher is not supposed to preach hate out of the pulpit. Christ said to love your enemies that men might see that you are the children of God. I am constantly hearing out of this same man's pulpit that free willer's are not saved. Just last Sunday the guy said if a man left sovereign grace gospel and went to the free will church he had committed the un-pardonable sin. I've heard him say every thing from a woman that works don't know Christ to if a Christian couple files for a divorce, the one that filed first don't know Christ. So there seems to be enough hatred on both sides to go around.

In my opinion, from what I understand and read from the scriptures, it is this preacher who is most likely un-regenerated.

 

[JonC]

I guess that I am confused in understanding the consept of unlimited attonement. From my prospective, its an arguement of potential vs really saving. I see Christ as really ---"really saving " all those the father has chosen.....so if the son died for all, well then all are truly saved.....so do we all go to heaven?????

See I believe that unless the atonement is particular & effective in truly saving, then we have really distroyed the harmony of the Trinity.....in effect you'd be saying that the members of the Trinity don't quite know what they are doing (now that's absurd) .

The Father has chosen the elect; but the Son has died for all; and the Holy Spirit has managed to apply the atoning work of Christ to some?!?! But that's not what scripture says.....rather the son died for all who were given to Him by the Father. Now it fits....now there is harmony.....now people are actually being saved......it is not a zero /sum game.

I believe Christ died to redeem those the Father has given (the elect). I also believe he is the propitiation for the sins of mankind.

 

[evangelist6589]

You are not going to get me to say who is saved and who is not. That is not my job, that is God's job. Only God knows the heart of a man and who is saved and who is not.



I will say this though, I firmly believe Paul taught an UNlimited Atonement, that Jesus died for ALL men. I believe those who preach that Jesus only died for the elect are preaching another gospel.

So I am on the way to hell because I believe another gospel???? You have just judged the salvation of all Calvinists!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe Christ died to redeem those the Father has given (the elect). I also believe he is the propitiation for the sins of mankind.

I noted that you did not say all mankind. So we can rest comfortably in John 6:38-39

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Then we can safely say that Christ's work on the cross was NOT a hypothetical salvation for hypothetical believers---it was a real & definite salvation for God's own chosen people. I rest my case!

 

[tyndale1946]

I noted that you did not say all mankind. So we can rest comfortably in John 6:38-39

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Then we can safely say that Christ's work on the cross was NOT a hypothetical salvation for hypothetical believers---it was a real & definite salvation for God's own chosen people. I rest my case!

I will add something else to this... There were two thieves on the cross... One he told this day shalt thou be with me in paradise... Why didn't he say anything to the other thief? He wasn't given to Christ by the Father!

 

[JonC]

I noted that you did not say all mankind. So we can rest comfortably in John 6:38-39

Then we can safely say that Christ's work on the cross was NOT a hypothetical salvation for hypothetical believers---it was a real & definite salvation for God's own chosen people. I rest my case!

Either way we can rest comfortably in John 6:38-39. But if you are wondering (as I doubt you are), I do not believe that because Jesus died on the cross that apart from faith on our part there is redemption (I don't believe that faith is a result of salvation, but that God draws men to faith first). I do think that the subject of 1 John 2:2 is Jesus and not man or sin. So I do view it as indicating the "whole world"...or "all men." Ironically, here I depart with many Calvinists...but I have company with Calvin if that counts for anything :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Reformed]

...but I have company with Calvin if that counts for anything :smilewinkgrin:

Brother, I am not quite sure of this attestation. Calvin wrote:

"I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins?"

"For our present question is, not what the power or virtue of Christ is, nor what efficacy it has in itself, but who those are to whom he gives Himself to be enjoyed. Now if the possession of Christ stands in faith, and if faith flows from the Spirit of adoption, it follows that he alone is numbered of God among His children who is designed of God to be a partaker of Christ. Indeed the evangelist John sets forth the office of Christ to be none other than that of ‘gathering together all the children of God’ in one by His death. From all which we conclude that, although reconciliation is offered unto all men through him, yet, that the great benefit belongs peculiarly to the elect, that they might be ‘gathered together’ and be made ‘together’ partakers of eternal life."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Either way we can rest comfortably in John 6:38-39. But if you are wondering (as I doubt you are), I do not believe that because Jesus died on the cross that apart from faith on our part there is redemption (I don't believe that faith is a result of salvation, but that God draws men to faith first). I do think that the subject of 1 John 2:2 is Jesus and not man or sin. So I do view it as indicating the "whole world"...or "all men." Ironically, here I depart with many Calvinists...but I have company with Calvin if that counts for anything :smilewinkgrin:

Nope.....I am not a Calvinist. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I will add something else to this... There were two thieves on the cross... One he told this day shalt thou be with me in paradise... Why didn't he say anything to the other thief? He wasn't given to Christ by the Father!

Hmmmm, interesting ..... I like that. thanks :thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

Blood of Christ

The blood and flesh of Christ is not for the wicked, but for those who are born again by His word.

The blood and flesh of Christ does no good for those who are not being changed by it. I don't believe Calvin was saying what he said for the reason you wanted him to.

1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

 

[JonC]

Brother, I am not quite sure of this attestation.

Perhaps I misunderstood EW&F. But the second quote pretty much sums up what I was trying (however inadequately) to say. "[A]lthough reconciliation is offered unto all men through him, yet that the great benefit belongs peculiarly to the elect, that they might be ‘gathered together’ and made ‘together’ partakers of eternal life.”

I did not understand EW&F to be saying that reconciliation was being offered to all men.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps I misunderstood EW&F. But the second quote pretty much sums up what I was trying (however inadequately) to say. "[A]lthough reconciliation is offered unto all men through him, yet that the great benefit belongs peculiarly to the elect, that they might be ‘gathered together’ and made ‘together’ partakers of eternal life.”

I did not understand EW&F to be saying that reconciliation was being offered to all men.

If Christ made propitiation for sin by his death then we have 2 different synarios right?

1) its for all the sins of all the people of the world. As a result, all will be saved.

2) propition for the sins of His elect, who alone are saved.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Revmitchell]

If Christ made propitiation for sin by his death then we have 2 different synarios right?

1) its for all the sins of all the people of the world. As a result, all will be saved.

2) propition for the sins of His elect, who alone are saved.

Draw your own conclusions.

What is a "synarios"?

This is called the false dilema fallacy.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Regarding reconciliation.....I don't understand how someone being reconciled to God goes on fighting God? I perfer to believe that Christs death on the cross brought God & those God has given Christ together.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What is a "synarios"?

This is called the false dilema fallacy.

:laugh:
Not to me...

 

[JonC]

If Christ made propitiation for sin by his death then we have 2 different synarios right?



1) its for all the sins of all the people of the world. As a result, all will be saved.



2) propition for the sins of His elect, who alone are saved.



Draw your own conclusions.

Read the verse again, the subject is Christ (the propitiation). But yes, although you choose a poor verse as support, it is the sins of the elect that are covered

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Read the verse again, the subject is Christ (the propitiation). But yes, although you choose a poor verse as support, it is the sins of the elect that are covered

:laugh: you are calling John 6:38-39 a what?:laugh:

OK...done here.

 

[Rippon]

Read the verse again, the subject is Christ (the propitiation). But yes, although you choose a poor verse as support, it is the sins of the elect that are covered

And the sins of the elect alone were covered.

Since Christ became the propitiation for the sins of His people scattered throughout the world, that means God's wrath is no longer upon them. Christ made satisfaction for His people on the cross of Calvary. They are reconciled with Him. They have peace with God. Can that be said of every single individual since Creation --past, present and future? Is every single person free of God's condemnation? Is Christ the Advocate for every person --head-for-head -- or for His elect ones alone? Because only the elect --(His sheep --His Church) can be said to joined with Him to enjoy these and other privileges.

 

[Revmitchell]

And the sins of the elect alone were covered.

Since Christ became the propitiation for the sins of His people scattered throughout the world, that means God's wrath is no longer upon them. Christ made satisfaction for His people on the cross of Calvary. They are reconciled with Him. They have peace with God. Can that be said of every single individual since Creation --past, present and future? Is every single person free of God's condemnation? Is Christ the Advocate for every person --head-for-head -- or for His elect ones alone? Because only the elect --(His sheep --His Church) can be said to joined with Him to enjoy these and other privileges.

I agree with all of that. Having said that it in no way negates that Jesus died for the world.

 

[Rippon]

I agree with all of that. Having said that it in no way negates that Jesus died for the world.

How in the world can you possibly agree with all of that yet not clearly see from my explanation that the non-elect will always be under God's condemnation. They will not have Jesus as their Advocate. They will never be reconciled with God --no peace with Him since their sins have not been satisfied. All the benefits of the propitiation are enjoyed by the elect alone.