Calvinists: Best Argument?

[MB]

It's good to have a soldier around. I may need your professional services when these ranting hereticks around here attack me. :laugh:

Some people say that the election of Jacob has to do with historical purposes rather than the individual's salvation. In other words, it's not that Jacob was chosen to be saved, but rather he was chosen to be the father of a loved nation; and parallel to that, Esau was chosen to be the father of a hated nation. Election to specific historic purposes and ministries is called vocational election.

Webdog's post represents corporate or national election. He thinks that it wasn't really Jacob the individual that was elected and loved, but Israel the nation, whom Jacob represents. And so Esau represented Edom, a hated nation.

What do you think about those theories?

Well there is one thing for certain you should listen to Webdog because he's right. What you claimed about election, shows you don't know much about it.
MB

 

[J.D.]

Well there is one thing for certain you should listen to Webdog because he's right. What you claimed about election, shows you don't know much about it.
MB

Hay Lord'sSoldier, see what I mean?

 

[MB]

Hay Lord'sSoldier, see what I mean?

Why don't you make your replies to me rather than about me?
MB

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

In my understanding Romans 9 talks about God and his role in Salvation. He is speaking about individuals and also nations, but the whole nation is not saved nor is the whole nation hated. There are individuals in both nations talked about that are saved and lost. Notice Pharoah; He had no choice in the matter is the whole nation of egypt raised up for God to destroy? No the whole nation was not destroyed.

Romans 9:16 I realy belive raps it all up. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

No matter how hard the man works toward salvation, or no matter how hard he wants it. Unless it is for God perpose he will not be saved. Once the man is called he will come: "All that the Father has given to Me will come to Me", Says our Lord. "and he will not loose one" This latter part of the verse speaks to the Persaverance of the Saints. I know which is not part of the Debate at this point. I just had to throw that out there....LOL

Now I know that if a man seeks God, God will be found by Him. Scripture teaches that. I also know that no one seeks after God. Rom 3:10-11

I wont comment on the elect at this time.

 

[J.D.]

Why don't you make your replies to me rather than about me?
MB

I'm not interested in swapping insults, if that's where your heading with this. My comments about hereticks was a joke, if that's what's getting you cracked up. No offence intended. I have to log off now anyway. If you want to tald about the doctrine of election, I'll be back later.

 

[MB]

In my understanding Romans 9 talks about God and his role in Salvation. He is speaking about individuals and also nations, but the whole nation is not saved nor is the whole nation hated. There are individuals in both nations talked about that are saved and lost. Notice Pharoah; He had no choice in the matter is the whole nation of egypt raised up for God to destroy? No the whole nation was not destroyed.

Romans 9:16 I realy belive raps it all up. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

No matter how hard the man works toward salvation, or no matter how hard he wants it. Unless it is for God perpose he will not be saved. Once the man is called he will come: "All that the Father has given to Me will come to Me", Says our Lord. "and he will not loose one" This latter part of the verse speaks to the Persaverance of the Saints. I know which is not part of the Debate at this point. I just had to throw that out there....LOL

Now I know that if a man seeks God, God will be found by Him. Scripture teaches that. I also know that no one seeks after God. Rom 3:10-11

I wont comment on the elect at this time.

I agree it depends on God who shows His mercy. It was His mercy that He had towards the welfare of the whole world that He died for. Man doesn't seek God. God seeks men. Which is why He draws all men.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ was lifted up from the earth when they hung Him on a cross and when He ascended back to the Father.
MB

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

well here is were one of us I belive is mistakin. If God was to draw the whole world then it is my understand that the whole world would be drawn. Since we know the whole world has not been drawn, that leaves us to belive that He did not draw the whole world and we are misunderstanding the verse.

What I'm saying here is, is the Blood and Calling of God is so powerfull that when it sets out to (draw, call, so on) it does exacltly that. Efectually and perfectly without fail.

It come back to the old does all mean all..........not that again.

LOL

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

Let me ask this;

Question, Calvinist: Did Christ die to secure the salvation of All men?
Answer, Armenian/Calvinist: No
Q, Calvinist: Did Christ die to secure the salvation of any man in particular?
A, Armenian: No, (if the Armenian stays consistent) An Armenian will Say, "Christ has died that any man may be saved IF"....certain conditions and standards.

Armenian say, "We say then we will just go back to the old statement, Christ did not die to secure the salvation of anybody.

So who limits the atonement?

Calvinist say, “Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number. Who through Christ death not only may be saved but are saved, must be saved and can not by any possibility run the hazard but being anything but saved.

General Atonement is like a great wide bridge, that is a half an arch… it does not go across the whole stream. It only professes to go half way it does not profess to secure the salvation of anybody.

I would rather set my foot upon a bridge that reaches all the way across.

 

[webdog]

It's arminian...not armenian, btw.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

It's arminian...not armenian, btw.

thanks one of my biggest down falls, I cant spell worth a dime.

 

[Allan]

I would like to volunteer to answer your question - IF you can answer this: why did YOU choose to believe and others choose to not believe?

The answer is simple but it does not fit into your theological box. Because ALL men can choose either or when God reveals His truths to them. Both groups KNOW it is truth, however both groups will not submit to it. It is the truth that compels some and repells others. God does not make one believe but He does reveal truth that all MAY believe.

However JD, this is a question that has been answered numerous times. The problem with the answer from a Non-Cal is that the Calvinist wants the answer to be shaped both from and in their philospical view of man NOT being able to choose.

Yet we find in multitude form throughout the scriptures of God declaring for people, nations, and even the whole world to choose His way (repent/believe) or their own. Even God states in multitude form to Israel that if they would have chosen Him and His ways they would have been blessed (and then goes into great detail about what He had planned for them in that blessing) but they choose their own way and then He goes into great detail about their cursing.

If man did not have the ability (when God reveals truth) to choose God's way then why pray-tell does God go into such detail about what He wanted to do for them IF He did not intend to give any such blessing because He would keep them from it. To the Calvinsit it is a path that did not truely exist. Yet to God it does and He speaks of it as though it WOULD have been, if they only had believed. Yet again the Calvinists state that He did not intend to do at all, where the non-cal states He was merely speaking about a 'potential' possibility if they would believe. However, if He did not intend to do it (the blessing or cursing), was God just making it up since He would not have done it? No, I believe God knows the end outcome of every choice but the fact it is a choice means there are two potential possibilities. Therefore every choice means a 'potential' other path. As an example - I agree with Spurgeon here, that 'all' in this verse means every single person (remember Spurgeon believer the "L" but even he can't and will not side step this verse:

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm
Christ died for all (the propitiation for the whole world) but only by faith is the propitiation applied (Rom3:25) Therefore both arguments are true. Christ died for all, but His death was made for all who believed.

Please don't say it is anthropomorphic because this is not something infinite about God conveyed in finite terms, but God specifically telling man to choose and then revealing there are two potential outcomes. Yes, TWO. However, God knows the one that WILL come about yet, it is only a true choice IF there is actually two possible outcomes. This is an argument I have found to be greatly lacking on the Calvinists part and in dire need of reveiw. IMO of course, but then again who am I

Hint: "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

This verse has absolutely nothing to do God making people believe. It merely reiterates "those whom He foreknew, He did predestinate.." IOW - all those God knew He would save (before time) are now (in time) saved.

Another hint: "but ye believed not, because ye are not of my sheep; as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice..."

Again this has nothing to do with God making people believe.
This is simply saying the sheep are the only ones He already knew will believe him. It is not stating the Calvinists philosophical notion they are 'unable believe' but that they choose NOT to beleive. Those of faith are His sheep, He knows them, and they will follow (by faith) him.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

So basically Allen, what you’re saying is God has set forth two choices for man, That Christ has done all he can do now it’s up to you? Would this be a correct assumption?

 

[Allan]

Doesn't this mean that "unconditional" election is incorrect?

I think election is conditional, but the condition is known only to God.

Actaully Amy I agree. I believe God's election was conditioned but that we DO know what that condition was as set forth in scripture.
However it was unconditional in relation to man since man did not have any say in God's electing him. Man did not say to God, why not allow us to be saved this way or that.

It was the soveriegn choice of God to save by His grace. But in order for it to be by grace it must be through faith, as says the scritpure "it is by faith that it might be by grace".

Therefore God decreed that salvation would by or through faith. In God's election however He did not have to look down time to see all who would be believe in order to know all whom He would choose unto Himself. He knew all of faith at the same time He decreed salvation by faith. God's knowledge works in conjunction with His decrees. He does not give people faith (as if they did not have capcity of it) but gives man truth that their faith might cleave to that truth and be saved.

God does not decree something in order to know it, for He could not decree it UNLESS He knew it.

All men have the capcity of faith. I do beleive that faith is a gift but not in the sense that it is something man does not have the capcity of already. But in the sense that if it was not for God revealing truth to man, man would not have the option of placing his faith toward God because he would know nothing of God. Faith by itself does not save else all men everywhere would be saved. It is the object of faith that saves, and man of and by himself knows nothing spiritually (truth) if God does not reveal it to him

My argument of faith not being a gift is set in the premise that faith is not something man has the capcity of, when if fact we do, we just need God to reveal His truth that our faith may take hold of Christ and this world no longer.

Not sure why I went there though, sorry.

 

[Allan]

So basically Allen, what you’re saying is God has set forth two choices for man, That Christ has done all he can do now it’s up to you? Would this be a correct assumption?

No, not the way you put it but from your theological view I understand that is what you get from it.

Our salvation IS our choice, unless you believe a person is saved without faith. One must choose to believe truth/Christ, so in that sense it is up to us to believe the truth. Yet, salvation itself is something that only God can do. There is no amount of belief or faith in the world that can save a person. Salvation is of God and it is Gods choice and decree to give it by grace to those of faith/belief. (Prov 2:18 - ; Rom 1:18- ; 2 Thes 2:10-12 are some good examples)

Can you deny God gives choices?
And if God does, are there not TWO possibilities?

Yet, I agree that God already knows the outcome of every choice, but that does not make the choices any less valid or real. God Himself even expounds on the potential possibilities of choices. If they are not real, how can He do this without it being a lie?

 

[Allan]

LORDs: Stands for our Lord Jesus Christ.
Strateuo: is Greek for soldier.

I'm a soldier stationed at Ft. Campbell so I looked in the bible using my concordance at the word soldier and whala ther your have it LORDs_strateuo.

could you please rephrase your question?

BTW - I do like you name. It pretty cool :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

It's good to have a soldier around. I may need your professional services when these ranting hereticks around here attack me. :laugh:

Some people say that the election of Jacob has to do with historical purposes rather than the individual's salvation. In other words, it's not that Jacob was chosen to be saved, but rather he was chosen to be the father of a loved nation; and parallel to that, Esau was chosen to be the father of a hated nation. Election to specific historic purposes and ministries is called vocational election.

Webdog's post represents corporate or national election. He thinks that it wasn't really Jacob the individual that was elected and loved, but Israel the nation, whom Jacob represents. And so Esau represented Edom, a hated nation.

What do you think about those theories?

I find those 'theories' to be exigetical in nature due to the surrounding text and the context of the chapter.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

Can you deny God gives choices?

I do believe God gives choices, but man will always chose to serve his flesh, evan after the truth has been reveled to him. If as you say man has faith, and its God’s truth that awakens that faith, then he has the choice. I can see how you can come to that conclusion. I believe what you are leaving out is man is dead; the Gospel is foolishness to him. How many people have heard the Gospel and have agreed to it, know it, but still live a life of rebellion toward God?

Man is incapable until God puts the Gift of faith in him, Mans response to that gift is that he believes.

Very good argument on your part; based on it, I will meditate…

 

[Outsider]

Hi Allan,
First I want to say I enjoy your posts. You give me a lot to think about and I see scripture a lot like you do. I also see it a lot like others and with that being said, I do have a couple of questions for you.

It was the soveriegn choice of God to save by His grace. But in order for it to be by grace it must be through faith, as says the scritpure "it is by faith that it might be by grace".

Isn't faith a gift? Ephesians 2:5-10 says:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It sounds to me, that we are saved by God's great and merciful grace. It is through faith, but it is a gift, not of ourselves. If He saves by His grace, but it can only be done through faith, and He gives the faith, then what is the outcome? You made reference that everyone knows the truth, but does every one have this gift of faith? I realize everyone has faith, but does everyone have this type of faith?

Yet, I agree that God already knows the outcome of every choice, but that does not make the choices any less valid or real. God Himself even expounds on the potential possibilities of choices. If they are not real, how can He do this without it being a lie?

This is the part that really opened my eyes when I studied this. God already knows the outcome of our choices. I agree with you. But think of this, If God knows that you would choose Him ahead of time, what real choice do you have? I don't think anyone will show up in heaven and God say "I didn't think you were gonna make it". I really struggle with this. I have accepted that it is all foreordained by His foreknowledge. But when I search it out, the word foreknowledge does not mean what I always thought it meant. It doesn't mean Foreseen, as if He looked down through time and seen those that would choose Him. From what I have found, the word means forethought. That changes a lot doesn't it?
But even if it did mean foreseen, if we use 10 people as an example, and He foreseen 5 of them choosing Him long ago and the other 5 not choosing Him, then at present time, what choice do they have? If this was foreseen from the foundation of the world, long before these people were even born, then their fate is sealed at that time. Long before they choose anything.
I am still settled in, at this time, that it simply comes down to how you view it. From our standpoint, we make choices. We do not know the future. God on the other hand, does know the future. From that perspective, He foreordaines things to happen for His good pleasure.

I would like your thoughts on this. Again, I enjoy your posts and the way you explain yourself.

 

[webdog]

Isn't faith a gift? Ephesians 2:5-10 says:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It sounds to me, that we are saved by God's great and merciful grace. It is through faith, but it is a gift, not of ourselves. If He saves by His grace, but it can only be done through faith, and He gives the faith, then what is the outcome? You made reference that everyone knows the truth, but does every one have this gift of faith? I realize everyone has faith, but does everyone have this type of faith?

In Eph. 2:8-9, the gift spoken of is salvation, not faith (the whole of "by grace through faith" in the greek). Faith in itself doesn't save, but the object of one's faith is what saves.

 

[jcjordan]

In Eph. 2:8-9, the gift spoken of is salvation, not faith (the whole of "by grace through faith" in the greek). Faith in itself doesn't save, but the object of one's faith is what saves.

So you wouldn't thank God for your faith?