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I don't agree, but what is new thereLORDs_strateuo said:
. There is NO choice involved when there is not real or valid second option. It is an illusion or myth. If God gives choices as you ascribe then those choices are something that the person has every capability to obtain, else by defintion it is not a choice.No, I'm not leaving out that man is 'dead'. I just do not believe the Calvinistic definition of what 'dead' means. I do not believe it is the wooden literal sense at all - as in - having no ability to do anything. Yes, we are 'dead' in our trespasses and sins (as unbelievers) but to apply such a wooden literal definition destroys the very intended illistration it was set forth to convey:
Notice that if one applies the same definition of 'dead' to the spiritual state of a person in the above, that person would be UNABLE to sin. It is usually pointed out at this time the word "Reckon" which means 'Consider'. Thus consider yourselves dead... not that we are really 'dead to sin as believers. But now we have an even bigger problem with the rest of the text since the term 'reckon' INCLUDES being 'alive in Christ'. So here we must consider ourselves alive but not that we really are alive. Maybe that is a poor example. Is there any scriptures that we as believers are in fact 'dead' TO sin. Yep:
The definition for 'dead' used in relation to the spiritual state of this person must be and indeed is the same here as it is with regard to the spiritual state of the unbeliever. So, no I do not agree biblically that 'dead' with regard to the spiritual state of person means 'having no ability or capability to do anything'. We see the same meaning conveyed in the prodical son parable in that the Father states the son was 'dead' and is now 'alive'. The Son was still dead when he made the choice to return upon seeing and acknowledging the truth he understood in that pig pen.
Notice if you will that it is only IN Christ that we SHALL BE MADE alive, but we are only IN Chrst at savlation and not before because no sinner can in union with the Son unless they have repented and believed. Thus regeneration is AT salvation and not before.
Again I disagree based upon what I see in the scriptures. And it primarily that I don't see what you are stating. Faith is not something God gives to a person as though it is something they did not have, like wings for example. All men have the capcity for and of common faith, so why does God need to give man something he already has? He only need to give to man that which man can place his faith in. There is not distinction between the essense of common or biblical faith since both are 'faith'. The only distinction that can be made is not in their believing but to that which they have believed, thus the distinction is the object of their faith and not of faith itself.
In truth you have a good one as well, and I to will meditate on it
I don't have a lot of time as late, but I will get back to you sometime soon on this. K?Outsider said:Hi Allan,
First I want to say I enjoy your posts. You give me a lot to think about and I see scripture a lot like you do. I also see it a lot like others and with that being said, I do have a couple of questions for you.
Isn't faith a gift? Ephesians 2:5-10 says:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It sounds to me, that we are saved by God's great and merciful grace. It is through faith, but it is a gift, not of ourselves. If He saves by His grace, but it can only be done through faith, and He gives the faith, then what is the outcome? You made reference that everyone knows the truth, but does every one have this gift of faith? I realize everyone has faith, but does everyone have this type of faith?
This is the part that really opened my eyes when I studied this. God already knows the outcome of our choices. I agree with you. But think of this, If God knows that you would choose Him ahead of time, what real choice do you have? I don't think anyone will show up in heaven and God say "I didn't think you were gonna make it". I really struggle with this. I have accepted that it is all foreordained by His foreknowledge. But when I search it out, the word foreknowledge does not mean what I always thought it meant. It doesn't mean Foreseen, as if He looked down through time and seen those that would choose Him. From what I have found, the word means forethought. That changes a lot doesn't it?
But even if it did mean foreseen, if we use 10 people as an example, and He foreseen 5 of them choosing Him long ago and the other 5 not choosing Him, then at present time, what choice do they have? If this was foreseen from the foundation of the world, long before these people were even born, then their fate is sealed at that time. Long before they choose anything.
I am still settled in, at this time, that it simply comes down to how you view it. From our standpoint, we make choices. We do not know the future. God on the other hand, does know the future. From that perspective, He foreordaines things to happen for His good pleasure.
I would like your thoughts on this. Again, I enjoy your posts and the way you explain yourself.
No, not the gospel, but truth.jcjordan said:
God giving men truth they would not otherwise have known isn't done so by grace?jcjordan said:
No, it doesn't differ.jcjordan said:
Allan said:
jcjordan said:
The Holy Spirit works on the heart so that some might seek Jesus.BaptistBeliever said:
jcjordan said:
You seemed to be confused. It is not 'irrestistable' if the 'will' in the sentence is contengent upon something that is not guarenteed to be done.Isaiah40:28 said:
First, I do not question that God saves by or because of His great and merciful grace. That is a fact, period.Outsider said:
The text is not stating 'faith' is the gift but the context of the surrounding passages are speaking about salvation and also identify 'salvation' as the gift.
God giving 'faith' is not something the scripture bear out, at least in the terms of it being something man does not have.
If everyone HAS faith then there is no need for God to 'give faith' because that is absolutely meaningless (IMO). It makes no sense for God give to a person what they already have or better have the capcity to do. Let me put it this way - If regeneration (as the Calvinist states) happens BEFORE salvation, why then would God need to 'give' faith to them when they already posses it? And if being regenerated they indeed would simply utilize that faith they already possesed to believe in Christ Jesus. Scripture states either one has saving faith, which is saving because the object to which that faith is placed (the object being Jesus Christ) or it is called 'vain faith' due to the object to which that faith is placed (not the Jesus the bible speaks of, or not him at all). All Faith is just that.. faith. The only distiction between types of faith is the object to which faith clings.
Just because God knows the outcome of your choices does not mean they were not ligitimate choices for you to make. It was YOUR choice to make, He does not make the choice for you, for it is only at that point can the question be stated - what 'real' choice do I have? He can design those choices so that the outcome will fulfill His purpose and plan to His good pleasure but it IS YOU who is to choose what to do. Some will choose life and others will not. Can God step in if He so chooses to affect at times our choices? You bet!!
I agree that foreknowledge is not God for'seeing' or God looking down through time to see who will choose Him. He is perfect in knowledge, and therefore knows all things already. When God decreed that salvation would be by faith, He knew at the same time (if not already) all of those OF faith. He didn't tentitively think about saving by faith, looked down time to see if it was a good idea, so there would be alot of people come to Him and decided "that is what I'll do". He chose to save by faith, and knew all those who were of faith. The fact of the matter is this; We do not know how God thinks, plans, or arranges His thoughts. All scripture tells us is that His decrees work in conjunction with His foreknowledge. If we go beyond that it is pure philosophy and human inginuity to craft a theological position to that mold. We can know this however, God knows before He decrees else He could not decree that which He does not know about and therefore His knowledge and decrees work in conjuction with one another
Not true. Again they still must choose for themselves (mans responsibility), and the fact that their choice is a known thing does not exclude the fact it was a real and valid choice they had to make. We must remember that when God sees things, all time is present. It is not that there is a 'long before' to God, but the now. But yes, their 'fate' (as you call it) is sealed in the knowledge of God according their choice which is to be made in time. You keep skirting the fact that they are the ones who will choose. God's knowledge of their choice does not change that fact.
Ok. Let me have you clarify something. You state that God fore(before time was)ordained things to happen. Are you saying you don't believe that man actaully chooses anything in Gods perspective? Is so then you are implying that it is actaully God making all people do whatever it is they do but He gives them the illusion of choice, when in fact it is actually God who is controlling them. Is that you view? See why I need clarificatioin :laugh:
