Calvinists: Best Argument?

Allen, I'm trying to understand your position. Do you believe that God has or will reveal the truth of the gospel to each and each and every person in the world, thus giving them the a chance to accept his offer of salvation for themself? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what i'm understanding your position is.

 

I see what you are saying, but God saves by giving His free grace by the means of faith. He gives you the grace and provides you with the faith, of which, the only object of is Christ.

 

I don't agree, but what is new there . There is NO choice involved when there is not real or valid second option. It is an illusion or myth. If God gives choices as you ascribe then those choices are something that the person has every capability to obtain, else by defintion it is not a choice.

No, I'm not leaving out that man is 'dead'. I just do not believe the Calvinistic definition of what 'dead' means. I do not believe it is the wooden literal sense at all - as in - having no ability to do anything. Yes, we are 'dead' in our trespasses and sins (as unbelievers) but to apply such a wooden literal definition destroys the very intended illistration it was set forth to convey:
As in the usage of the metaphorical language as seen here:

Notice that if one applies the same definition of 'dead' to the spiritual state of a person in the above, that person would be UNABLE to sin. It is usually pointed out at this time the word "Reckon" which means 'Consider'. Thus consider yourselves dead... not that we are really 'dead to sin as believers. But now we have an even bigger problem with the rest of the text since the term 'reckon' INCLUDES being 'alive in Christ'. So here we must consider ourselves alive but not that we really are alive. Maybe that is a poor example. Is there any scriptures that we as believers are in fact 'dead' TO sin. Yep:

The definition for 'dead' used in relation to the spiritual state of this person must be and indeed is the same here as it is with regard to the spiritual state of the unbeliever. So, no I do not agree biblically that 'dead' with regard to the spiritual state of person means 'having no ability or capability to do anything'. We see the same meaning conveyed in the prodical son parable in that the Father states the son was 'dead' and is now 'alive'. The Son was still dead when he made the choice to return upon seeing and acknowledging the truth he understood in that pig pen.
We also in this verse:

Notice if you will that it is only IN Christ that we SHALL BE MADE alive, but we are only IN Chrst at savlation and not before because no sinner can in union with the Son unless they have repented and believed. Thus regeneration is AT salvation and not before.

Again I disagree based upon what I see in the scriptures. And it primarily that I don't see what you are stating. Faith is not something God gives to a person as though it is something they did not have, like wings for example. All men have the capcity for and of common faith, so why does God need to give man something he already has? He only need to give to man that which man can place his faith in. There is not distinction between the essense of common or biblical faith since both are 'faith'. The only distinction that can be made is not in their believing but to that which they have believed, thus the distinction is the object of their faith and not of faith itself.
You can go to this thread and read my discussion of 'faith'. It is only 7 pages but I think the last 4 or 5 are more specific to our discussion regarding my view on 'faith':
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=43208&page=7

There is another thread I started on what regeneration is and when it happens here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=43205&page=7

In truth you have a good one as well, and I to will meditate on it

 

I don't have a lot of time as late, but I will get back to you sometime soon on this. K?

 

No, not the gospel, but truth.

God reveals himself through Nature and mans conscience in relation to basic but indisputable truths and even through His word of course to those who have it. IF man will believe the truths revealed to him by God through Nature and his conscience (Rom 1 and 2) God will bring to him the full truth (Gospel), like the Etheopian and Philip; Or any one of hundreds of missionary stories.

All men are given truth to believe by God that no man is without excuse and some will also hear that glorious Gospel of Grace to their salvation or their condemnation.

 

FYI....that's not Grace....Grace isn't based on conditions.

 

...but salvation is

Grace, therefore, is the whole of salvation being offered to mankind, not salvation itself.

 

God giving men truth they would not otherwise have known isn't done so by grace?
If it was not for the grace of God men would not ever know the truth but continue in blindness of it.

And it is for that reason we have in the scripture God giving man over to his sins when he rejects such grace (or unmerited favor). For it must be unmerited since what has any man done that God SHOULD reveal any truth to him? This is the grace of God and it is for the purpose of bringing man unto salvation if man would believe. And if not then God gives them over to their sins...
Pro 1:20-33; Ezk 33:9,11; Rom 1:18-33; Rom 2:14-15; 2Th 2:10-12 (and multitutes of other places)

 

Uh...Ephesians 2:8-9 would beg the differ. It says we are saved by grace, not that we are offered salvation by grace.

 

No, it doesn't differ.

We are saved by or better because of God's grace, but salvation is through faith because of grace. As says the scriptures, it is by faith that it might be by grace.

Don't get me wrong here, we can not BE saved if it were not for His grace but we are not saved by grace alone. If we are saved by grace alone then there is no need for faith, however the scripture states consistantly over and over again that salvation is through faith by or because of grace.

And yes it is true that it is because of Gods grace that salvation is offered to any who will believe and to illistrate that point even so much the more it is offered even to those who will not believe. Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all people. It is purely grace that would allow anyone to hear such a message of Gods love toward any and all who will believe.

 

"by grace you are saved through faith"

 

O.K., I guess where we differ is that I believe His grace extends to the point of providing us the faith to believe and you think that His grace is limited to only the offer of salvation to be accepted by only faith. Yes, that would be nice of gracious of God to offer, but I think that it is even more gracious for Him to actually give me what He requires.
That takes us all the way back to page 1 in this discussion where I first posed a similar question: "Why do you have faith and the unbeliever not have faith?" What is there about you that makes you different from the other guy? Who gets the credit for that difference?

 

The Holy Spirit works on the heart of those who seek Jesus.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Any restrictions given here on who can knock?

 

Nope, but not everyone will. Why did you seek and knock? Why doesn't your unbelieving friend? What is different about you?

 

Why did the prodigal son return home? I believe that someone who has been introduced to the gospel message through preaching or witness can, with the Holy Spirit's aid, obtain a saving faith through grace. I think many times this happens as a result of having gone through a difficult period and the person begins to realize that Christ is the only answer.

 

You seemed to be confused. It is not 'irrestistable' if the 'will' in the sentence is contengent upon something that is not guarenteed to be done.

The above are conditional statements. Therefore due to their being 'conditional' statements they can in no way be remotely considered 'irresistable' unless one distorts the passage.

 

Romans 2 states the reason is the unbeliever exchanges the Truth for a lie...the believer does not.

 

Hello Outsider,
I can finally get back with you on your questions:

First, I do not question that God saves by or because of His great and merciful grace. That is a fact, period.
Now to the other aspect from the above in relation to faith.
That depends on what you mean by 'faith being a gift'. If you mean that faith is not something man has the capcity of, then I disagree with you based on the millions of non-believers who place their faith in non-salvic things daily, as well as the scriptures telling people (being either God Himself or His messengers) to choose Him and His ways. You can go back and read my post to Lord which explains it a little better. There is also a link to another Baptist board discussion I made about faith. Faith itself does not save therefore all men have the capcity of faith. It is the object (Jesus Christ) that saves. Faith has no intrinsic value of itself but its value is derived from the object to which faith clings.

The text is not stating 'faith' is the gift but the context of the surrounding passages are speaking about salvation and also identify 'salvation' as the gift.

God giving 'faith' is not something the scripture bear out, at least in the terms of it being something man does not have.
Let me clarify something though. If we are talking about the noun aspect of faith (which is Christ the Lord) then Yes, Jesus is a gift which man does not have.

However if was are speaking of the men not have the ability or capcity to believe (verbal form) then it must be understood this view is a presupposition that must be brought into the text. All men have the capcity of faith (or to believe) but until God reveals truth to man, mans faith will never move near God.

If everyone HAS faith then there is no need for God to 'give faith' because that is absolutely meaningless (IMO). It makes no sense for God give to a person what they already have or better have the capcity to do. Let me put it this way - If regeneration (as the Calvinist states) happens BEFORE salvation, why then would God need to 'give' faith to them when they already posses it? And if being regenerated they indeed would simply utilize that faith they already possesed to believe in Christ Jesus. Scripture states either one has saving faith, which is saving because the object to which that faith is placed (the object being Jesus Christ) or it is called 'vain faith' due to the object to which that faith is placed (not the Jesus the bible speaks of, or not him at all). All Faith is just that.. faith. The only distiction between types of faith is the object to which faith clings.

Just because God knows the outcome of your choices does not mean they were not ligitimate choices for you to make. It was YOUR choice to make, He does not make the choice for you, for it is only at that point can the question be stated - what 'real' choice do I have? He can design those choices so that the outcome will fulfill His purpose and plan to His good pleasure but it IS YOU who is to choose what to do. Some will choose life and others will not. Can God step in if He so chooses to affect at times our choices? You bet!!

I agree that foreknowledge is not God for'seeing' or God looking down through time to see who will choose Him. He is perfect in knowledge, and therefore knows all things already. When God decreed that salvation would be by faith, He knew at the same time (if not already) all of those OF faith. He didn't tentitively think about saving by faith, looked down time to see if it was a good idea, so there would be alot of people come to Him and decided "that is what I'll do". He chose to save by faith, and knew all those who were of faith. The fact of the matter is this; We do not know how God thinks, plans, or arranges His thoughts. All scripture tells us is that His decrees work in conjunction with His foreknowledge. If we go beyond that it is pure philosophy and human inginuity to craft a theological position to that mold. We can know this however, God knows before He decrees else He could not decree that which He does not know about and therefore His knowledge and decrees work in conjuction with one another

Not true. Again they still must choose for themselves (mans responsibility), and the fact that their choice is a known thing does not exclude the fact it was a real and valid choice they had to make. We must remember that when God sees things, all time is present. It is not that there is a 'long before' to God, but the now. But yes, their 'fate' (as you call it) is sealed in the knowledge of God according their choice which is to be made in time. You keep skirting the fact that they are the ones who will choose. God's knowledge of their choice does not change that fact.

Ok. Let me have you clarify something. You state that God fore(before time was)ordained things to happen. Are you saying you don't believe that man actaully chooses anything in Gods perspective? Is so then you are implying that it is actaully God making all people do whatever it is they do but He gives them the illusion of choice, when in fact it is actually God who is controlling them. Is that you view? See why I need clarificatioin :laugh:

 

Allan, you just make too much sense!