OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I am very comfortable with God being God however man might speculate about Him!
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Calvinists... do you have a problem with the concept that God is the ultimate...
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I am very comfortable with God being God however man might speculate about Him!
IMHO
I believe our lack of understanding considering this is, that we think it is all about MAN. Is it?
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Doing the following: that he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; the secondary accomplishment is, it also redeems those who fell under that power, therefore giving God glory.
Prior to the creation of Adam all the way back to at the very least Gen. 1:2.5 that is the second half of verse 2 this was the purpose of God. Therefore that power of death which the devil, Satan had must have already existed. Satan must already have caused death of something.
Gal. 4:4,5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, (Death) as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
The world being the established order of things by God when he said let there be light and so forth and so on.
This follows, "And darkness (Satan and death) were upon the face of the deep."
God was going to destroy the devil, Satan and his power of death through the creation beginning in Gen. 1:2.5------- Of man and ending as his Son being born just as the man he created in Gen 1:26 subject to being tempted yet without sin.
Am I an idiot or is this feasible according to the word of God?
I have feelings of steel, state your case.
I have never heard this anywhere it is just what the scriptures seem to say to me.
BTW I wanted to use Rev 13:8 but Van won't let me.
I believe our lack of understanding considering this is, that we think it is all about MAN. Is it?
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Doing the following: that he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; the secondary accomplishment is, it also redeems those who fell under that power, therefore giving God glory.
Prior to the creation of Adam all the way back to at the very least Gen. 1:2.5 that is the second half of verse 2 this was the purpose of God. Therefore that power of death which the devil, Satan had must have already existed. Satan must already have caused death of something.
Gal. 4:4,5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, (Death) as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
The world being the established order of things by God when he said let there be light and so forth and so on.
This follows, "And darkness (Satan and death) were upon the face of the deep."
God was going to destroy the devil, Satan and his power of death through the creation beginning in Gen. 1:2.5------- Of man and ending as his Son being born just as the man he created in Gen 1:26 subject to being tempted yet without sin.
Am I an idiot or is this feasible according to the word of God?
I have feelings of steel, state your case.
I have never heard this anywhere it is just what the scriptures seem to say to me.
BTW I wanted to use Rev 13:8 but Van won't let me.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
God created light and dark. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life.
What kind of free agents would we be if life and death wasn't placed before us? So choose Jesus and live. Plain and simple.
What are you talking about? I am not a moderator, you can believe whatever you want. Skan has agreed with your view in the past and disagreed with mine, so I have no idea why you are paranoid. Any time someone disagrees with you, you seem to suffer from martyr's complex.
You think it is illogical that God can foreknow the free will decisions of men. OK, perhaps it is, but Jesus walking on water is illogical too. The supernatural will always be illogical, that is why it is called "super" natural. Duh.
The scriptures clearly say Jesus knew who would believe and who would not, so there is scriptural support for my view.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
The scriptures clearly say Jesus knew who believed not and who "should" betray him before it came to pass.
So, you can call my view illogical all you want, it is supported by scripture.
Jesus knew Judas would not believe and would betray him, and so chose Judas to fulfill prophecy. Jesus knew the other eleven were not devils and would believe, and chose them to spread the gospel.
You may consider the foresight view of faith illogical, but it is clearly shown in scripture. Get over it.
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That is the point. Man is not a free agent. He is either under bondage to sin or a bond-servant of Christ. Plain and simple.
psalms109:31
Active Member
There is only His will and our will. Since men have went against His will and eat from the tree of good and evil then they have to have a free agent to be able to go against the will of God. Scripture does not teach the will of God was Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It came from their own evil desire, just like Lucifer, just like king Tyre wickedness was found in them. As James teaches from scripture not a man-made understanding.
James 1 :
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
As the scripture also teaches
James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
Ever since Adam sinned the human will has been in bondage to sin.
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
The fallen human will is not willing, nor able, to choose God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If man truly is a moral free agent then the need for God does not exist. Man would be tablua rasa, as Pelagius taught. Man would be born in perfect union with God. Adam's sin would be only on Adam. Being free from sin there would be no need for a Redeemer. But human beings are not born with a blank slate. Human beings are born sinners and our will is in bondage to sin from conception.
psalms109:31
Active Member
You are not to understand you are to believe, we are to turn away from our own will and turn to God as Jesus said not my will but your will(the Fathers) will be done
John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Paul say's the natural man does not understand is to tell us not to trust our own understanding but in the Lord as prophets said in the book of wisdom to prepared us before His coming.
Proverbs 3 :
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.
and as Jesus teaches us listen and learn
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Wise and learned lean on their own understanding children of God lean on Him.
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Of course we are to believe. The Bible states:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
The problem is that sinful man does not have the faculty of will to believe unless granted to Him by God. This is not something the unsaved man has to necessarily hear. A burden is not placed on the sinner to become a learned theologian as a prerequisite to salvation. When the Gospel is proclaimed the call is made to listen, repent, and believe. But those who do so are enabled by God (Eph. 1:4,5; 2:8,9).
I'm writing this to oppose the idea that man is an unencumbered moral free agent. Unless God intervenes to change the status quo, no man could believe.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
The problem is that sinful man does not have the faculty of will to believe unless granted to Him by God. This is not something the unsaved man has to necessarily hear. A burden is not placed on the sinner to become a learned theologian as a prerequisite to salvation. When the Gospel is proclaimed the call is made to listen, repent, and believe. But those who do so are enabled by God (Eph. 1:4,5; 2:8,9).
I'm writing this to oppose the idea that man is an unencumbered moral free agent. Unless God intervenes to change the status quo, no man could believe.
psalms109:31
Active Member
That is where the word of life comes in, until you eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood you do not have any life in you. The flesh is the word He spoke and the blood is the life He lived. Until the word of life you are dead, and without keeping what you received from God you are dead, you have to eat and drink or you have no life. We are to leave nothing behind of the flesh and blood of the lamb.
Faith without deeds is dead and without His word we have nothing to eat or drink to have life eternal. When we drink and eat of something it becomes apart of us, keeps us alive temporary, but Jesus makes us live eternally.
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
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I mean no disrespect, but I have absolutely no idea the point you are trying to make given the context of the conversation.
psalms109:31
Active Member
It is has nothing to do with man's understanding that men will die from. It is all about Jesus so eat and drink of Him and we will be satisfied.
It is all about Jesus and being chosen in Him from the foundation of the world not about us and who we are, but Him, not about us I being chosen before the foundation of the world which is all about us, but about being chosen in Him which is all about Christ.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
It goes goes back to the beginning that wickedness comes from us not God when we worshiped the created thing over the creator, Satan's word.
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
We are to trust in God over our own understanding and what we see, and what the devil schemes is to get us not to believe His word
Ephesians 6 :
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
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Exactly. The very reason I stand by my post 122. It isn't just about man. God through the flesh and blood man Adam in the fulness of time would send forth his Son, the last Adam brought forth of woman to defeat Satan and his works thus redeeming man unto the image of his resurrected Son who had been brought forth of woman who had been taken from the man who had been created in the image of God, the first man Adam.
Do not ask me what this means for I do not know but believe that is what took place. Is it not?
The Lamb was considered slain before the first man Adam had was created, meaning it appears to me that the pinnacle creation of man was going to take place in the resurrected Son of God and not in the first man Adam.
Is that not what is being stated in Hebrews 2 section called, What is man?
But now we see not yet all things put under him.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels (like the first man Adam) for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor;
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;
And shall we not be glorified with him?
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Pitchback
Winman, I did not claim to be able to read opponents minds, that is supernatural and illogical. Actually you simply misrepresented my views and anyone can do that.
Everything I said was true.
Supernatural is not without a logical basis. Lets take "creative miracles" where God takes sick or dead cells and by His power over matter, creates cells that are alive and well, thus the lame walk and blind see. Jesus could also change the pressure/temperature gradient across the atmosphere such as wind stops. To turn water into wine Jesus created out of the material of water whole new atoms arranged in very different molecules. It is logical to believe if Jesus is our creator God, then He would have these powers.
I think it is illogical that God knows the future with certainly because (1) the Bible teaches otherwise, and (2) no deviation from what is known is possible, therefore the future is predestined, making God the author of sin. The true gospel is simple and makes sense even to a child.
Next you repeat what has already been acknowledged as if you had a point. Of course God can know the future, not only by predestining it, but by knowing our hearts and causing circumstances that will result in us choosing freely as God foresaw.
BTW, speaking of mental defects, I am not the one who demeans those who hold to positions supported biblically, such as God forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever. Or God tests individuals to determine how they will respond.
Winman, I did not claim to be able to read opponents minds, that is supernatural and illogical. Actually you simply misrepresented my views and anyone can do that.
Everything I said was true.
Supernatural is not without a logical basis. Lets take "creative miracles" where God takes sick or dead cells and by His power over matter, creates cells that are alive and well, thus the lame walk and blind see. Jesus could also change the pressure/temperature gradient across the atmosphere such as wind stops. To turn water into wine Jesus created out of the material of water whole new atoms arranged in very different molecules. It is logical to believe if Jesus is our creator God, then He would have these powers.
I think it is illogical that God knows the future with certainly because (1) the Bible teaches otherwise, and (2) no deviation from what is known is possible, therefore the future is predestined, making God the author of sin. The true gospel is simple and makes sense even to a child.
Next you repeat what has already been acknowledged as if you had a point. Of course God can know the future, not only by predestining it, but by knowing our hearts and causing circumstances that will result in us choosing freely as God foresaw.
BTW, speaking of mental defects, I am not the one who demeans those who hold to positions supported biblically, such as God forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever. Or God tests individuals to determine how they will respond.
Van said:
This proves the foresight of faith view, not refutes it. You are correct, Jesus said if Tyre & Sidon had witnessed the mighty works that were done in Chorazin and Bethsaida they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
This verse proves that God can foresee circumstances that did not take place in reality and know who would believe under those circumstances. This scripture refutes your view and supports mine. I cannot say as to whether this supports HoS's view.
God can foresee who will believe under whatever circumstances or degree of revelation he decides is just and elects or chooses those persons.
Why was this made when it was made?
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; -----Use any translation you like.
Was the promise made before of after this determination, regardless of what is modified?
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
What does this determination and promise have to say about what God foreknew about all others which would created and born in the image of the first man created Adam?
He foreknew that because Satan was present in the environment in which the first man was created and the others would be born they would all become degenerates. The god of this world would see to it, however GOD would do his thing.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
God is doing his works among the degenerates.
The Lamb died. The Lamb did not have life in himself. But God would give the Lamb to have life in himself just as God has life in himself because of the promise. John 5:26,21
For salvation to be an actual reality anyone else born of woman in the image of the first man Adam will have to be given that same life that comes through the only one as yet to received it. Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God.
Good Master what must I do to inherit eternal life?
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [eternal life] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. ---- Abraham to this very day has not received the promise--- The promise was made to Abraham and his one seed the Christ ---- 19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. ---Abraham will receive the promise through Christ also.
If Jesus had not been raised from the dead there would be no eternal life to give.
We are the degenerates. All we deserve is death and corruption.
The Lamb, Jesus conceived by the Spirit God, Holy in the virgin Mary and brought froth from her was without spot or blemish, sinless, yet gave his life for the degenerates and so, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
People what do you think, the righteousness of God, is
-------what do you think the grace of God is ---
We can be given these because God the Father gave them to his Son who gave his life.
The Son of God was obedient unto faith by dying. -----
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; -----Use any translation you like.
Was the promise made before of after this determination, regardless of what is modified?
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
What does this determination and promise have to say about what God foreknew about all others which would created and born in the image of the first man created Adam?
He foreknew that because Satan was present in the environment in which the first man was created and the others would be born they would all become degenerates. The god of this world would see to it, however GOD would do his thing.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
God is doing his works among the degenerates.
The Lamb died. The Lamb did not have life in himself. But God would give the Lamb to have life in himself just as God has life in himself because of the promise. John 5:26,21
For salvation to be an actual reality anyone else born of woman in the image of the first man Adam will have to be given that same life that comes through the only one as yet to received it. Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God.
Good Master what must I do to inherit eternal life?
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [eternal life] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. ---- Abraham to this very day has not received the promise--- The promise was made to Abraham and his one seed the Christ ---- 19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. ---Abraham will receive the promise through Christ also.
If Jesus had not been raised from the dead there would be no eternal life to give.
We are the degenerates. All we deserve is death and corruption.
The Lamb, Jesus conceived by the Spirit God, Holy in the virgin Mary and brought froth from her was without spot or blemish, sinless, yet gave his life for the degenerates and so, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
People what do you think, the righteousness of God, is
-------what do you think the grace of God is ---
We can be given these because God the Father gave them to his Son who gave his life.
The Son of God was obedient unto faith by dying. -----
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