Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

[The Biblicist]

OK now....ive got a question about preaching to all. There are 2 coworkers and 1 brother in law who infatically (sic) insist that they are non believers and that they have renounced all belief in a higher power. They will even become verbally violent and condecending apon any mention of God, Christ and the Cross. One of these people is my boss who wanted to eliminate Christian holidays from our vacation work calander. Now do you expect me to preach to them or any other card carrying aethiest?

You do not know who the elect are unless you do preach to them (1 Thes. 1:4-5). Regardless of their expressed enmity, God saves through empowering the gospel to change them. However, that does not mean you try to force feed them either. Pray that God will open up the circumstances where you can share the gospel in a non-offensive manner, and then wait on the Lord for that opportunity.

 

[salzer mtn]

OK now....ive got a question about preaching to all. There are 2 coworkers and 1 brother in law who infatically (sic) insist that they are non believers and that they have renounced all belief in a higher power. They will even become verbally violent and condecending apon any mention of God, Christ and the Cross. One of these people is my boss who wanted to eliminate Christian holidays from our vacation work calander. Now do you expect me to preach to them or any other card carrying aethiest?

There are more than one way to preach to people. Some people that won't listen to your words nethertheless will take note of your Christian walk before them.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

DHK.....now you are claiming you were a child of satan???? You have some serious issues

But now, they they Ephesians, are made alive (by the work of the Holy Spirit). [For by grace are ye saved]. No one argues this either for that is what Paul goes on to explain. Once they were dead in sins; now they are alive in Christ. Something happened. What was it? They were regenerated/saved.

Now inasmuch as you are willing to accept the truths taught by those verses and apply them to all--both unbelievers and then believers, why are you not willing to do the same with John 8:44??

Because...these jews looked Jesus in the face and claimed they were seed of Abraham...Jesus reprobated them on the spot.....He is God DHK...He can do that!

[FONT=&quot]John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/FONT]
--Here, instead of admitting that this is applicable to all unsaved, you immediately claim that this is written to the non-elect only. That is a false statement.

Your statement concerning John 8:44:
"These are non elect being sent to hell."

is absolutely wrong and unscriptural

.

That is exactly what happened DHK.....I am not concerned that you wrongly speculate that this was a mixed multitude here....an argument from silence is no argument at all.

Among those who Christ spoke to, when he said those words, were "the elect," that is those who in the future would trust Christ

.

This is wild speculation on your part...the text is clear....you are wrong once again....

Just like here....
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So don't say that this statement was directed only to the non-elect being sent to hell.

again you ignore the context and miss what we all see...look-



Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Election is not for you. You don't decide. God does. Therefore don't go making off the wall statements of who is elect and who is not, especially when Scripture proves otherwise.

...Scripture proves you wrong again:laugh:

by the way....rev 21 is describing reprobates being cast into hell....can you get any scripture right???

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You do not know who the elect are unless you do preach to them (1 Thes. 1:4-5). Regardless of their expressed enmity, God saves through empowering the gospel to change them. However, that does not mean you try to force feed them either. Pray that God will open up the circumstances where you can share the gospel in a non-offensive manner, and then wait on the Lord for that opportunity.

How bout this ----- Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for this town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. (Matthew 10:11-16, NIV)

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK

DHK.....now you are claiming you were a child of satan???? You have some serious issues





Because...these jews looked Jesus in the face and claimed they were seed of Abraham...Jesus reprobated them on the spot.....He is God DHK...He can do that!

.

That is exactly what happened DHK.....I am not concerned that you wrongly speculate that this was a mixed multitude here....an argument from silence is no argument at all.

.

This is wild speculation on your part...the text is clear....you are wrong once again....

Just like here....
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.



again you ignore the context and miss what we all see...look-



Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.





...Scripture proves you wrong again:laugh:

by the way....rev 21 is describing reprobates being cast into hell....can you get any scripture right???

We were by nature children of wraith and disobedient, so were in the Kingdom of Satan until God saved us!

So ALL were as those Jews were until salvation!

 

[Iconoclast]

pinoybaptist

God did not use means

You completely ignore everything the text says God prepared. I think I know why....You did not respond to acts 8....for the same reason.It does not fit your ideas,,

Jonah's arrival there

Jonahs arrival???....like as if he was a tourist.....or did God have to PREPARE a fish?

and his preaching simply served as the catalyst, if you will, for their turning to Jonah's God.

Simply served as a catalyst? If Jonah did not preach they did not know anything to repent of...they did not know of judgment to come
3X now I asked you to comment on God preparing a fish, a storm, a gourd, and a worm.....you ignore it as if you want it to go away. Same with Acts 8...

You know that by owning up to it, there is no place for fatalism. God uses means all through scripture....even to bring about repentance.

There is the response, you just refuse to acknowledge it, look at it, and see it.

you have no response so far....Lydia believed the word preached-

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Yes God opened her heart....to What- preaching as the means of grace.

You keep going out of context in these conversations, Icon.

you are ignoring what is posted to explain away what you are not comfortable with. I understand:thumbs:

We are talking of means to bring the "lost" unto repentance, aren't we ?

That is part of the discussion. You are heading that way because you cannot answer these other truths which are scripturally balanced.

In your desire to portray me and my people, the Primitive Baptists, as hyper-Calvinistic antinomians you need to go out of the discussion's context.
Stay in context, man.

I do not have to portray you as anything....you declare it.
There is an anti missional teaching spoken of as hyper Calvinism.....it is your teaching. I did not make the label.....it exists however....and you are it.:thumbs:

how can it be hyper Calvinism. Wherever in my posts did I say that there is no need to preach the gospel ?
We preach it in our churches.
We preach it among ourselves (elders).
We do not shy away from it.
But we preach it for what it is: A gospel of a cross that is past, a Savior that is victorious, and of a Spirit that works in the regeneration of His own, INDEPENDENT OF ANY MEANS.We preach it as a way of life: trust in God, always in everything, for Him to come through for His people in the darkest of darkest nights, in the most vicious storms of life.
We preach it as that of an empty tomb of a Redeemer scorned by sinful men, as proof that one day the redeemed's tomb will itself be empty.
We preach it as the eternal blood shed in time for the eternal redemption of His own, and only they.

That is hyper-Calvinism ? Then I gladly own it.


see...I told you. You said it, not me.

 

[DHK]

DHK

DHK.....now you are claiming you were a child of satan???? You have some serious issues

Yes, and so were you. If you deny this, you also deny the depravity of man.
Is man depraved at birth Icon?
You also deny the necessity of the new birth. Is it necessary to be born again, Icon? Is it necessary to come out of Satan's family and to become a child of God; to be adopted as one of God's children. Not only is regeneration important here, but also adoption. Think about these doctrines.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Because...these jews looked Jesus in the face and claimed they were seed of Abraham...Jesus reprobated them on the spot.....He is God DHK...He can do that!

Because you told him to do that, and he obeyed you???
Where do you read that in Scripture? It is not there; it is only in your imagination.
The scripture says that God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. That is his will. He does not delight in the death of the wicked. He gave them every chance to repent even after the cross. Otherwise there was no purpose in Peter preaching to them.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
--These were the very ones that had crucified Christ; the ones that you say that Christ wrote off as reprobate. You are wrong.

That is exactly what happened DHK.....I am not concerned that you wrongly speculate that this was a mixed multitude here....an argument from silence is no argument at all.

I never said anything about a mixed multitude. Who was present?
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
--It starts in the Temple with the scribes and the Pharisees (those that make up the Sanhedrin). If all the Sanhedrin were there, then Nicodemus, Joseph of A., and Saul of Tarsus was there as well. Either way there was a large crowd, and many of them wanted to put him to death.

After the incident of the adulterous woman, the Pharisees still are there:
John 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

A larger crowd develops as they talk. They are all Jews. And then:
John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
--Yes, these reprobate Jews believed on Him.

Jesus tells those Jews that believed that they must continue in the truth and the truth will make them free. Immediately, those next to Jesus say:
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus said to them:
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Then he says:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--There are many Jews here. Some of them obviously saved; and some of these Jews will be saved including Saul of Tarsus.

My argument is not from silence; but rather from Scripture.

This is wild speculation on your part...the text is clear....you are wrong once again....

I have not speculated on anything. I have shown you the scripture. You refuse to believe it.

Just like here....
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And Saul, no doubt was there. That doesn't mean that someday soon he could be one of his sheep. That is what happened. The verses is in the present tense. "you ARE NOT of my sheep." It says nothing of, "You will NEVER be of my sheep". That is your interpretation, and it is wrong.

again you ignore the context and miss what we all see...look-

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You take Scripture conveniently out of context and interpret according to your own preconceived ideas. You stress that they "cannot hear.
See John 13:
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
--The disciples cannot come to heaven. According to you the Twelve Apostles are of the non-elect, doomed and in Hell, because Jesus said the cannot come. This is your logic.
In John 8--They could not hear at that time. It does not say they would never hear.
In John 13--They could not come at that time. It does not say they would never come.

 

[The Biblicist]

How bout this ----- Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for this town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. (Matthew 10:11-16, NIV)

Well, this instruction included the cultural customs of the day. There were few motels and hotels in Israel. The traveler depended upon the generosity of citizens to take them into their home and feed them. Unfortunately, that is not cultural America (perhaps in the South in some rural areas). Moreover, the public market place was not merely the place for commerce but for philosophical discussion as well, as there were few church "buildings" to meet and discuss religous things.

However, the principle is still valid. See who is open to hearing the gospel and share it. If you share it and they reject it then don't force it down their throat but go on to those who will receive it.

 

[pinoybaptist]

pinoybaptist[/B]

You completely ignore everything the text says God prepared. I think I know why....You did not respond to acts 8....for the same reason.It does not fit your ideas,,

Jonahs arrival???....like as if he was a tourist.....or did God have to PREPARE a fish?


Simply served as a catalyst? If Jonah did not preach they did not know anything to repent of...they did not know of judgment to come
3X now I asked you to comment on God preparing a fish, a storm, a gourd, and a worm.....you ignore it as if you want it to go away. Same with Acts 8...

You know that by owning up to it, there is no place for fatalism. God uses means all through scripture....even to bring about repentance.

you have no response so far....Lydia believed the word preached-

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Yes God opened her heart....to What- preaching as the means of grace.



you are ignoring what is posted to explain away what you are not comfortable with. I understand:thumbs:



That is part of the discussion. You are heading that way because you cannot answer these other truths which are scripturally balanced.



I do not have to portray you as anything....you declare it.
There is an anti missional teaching spoken of as hyper Calvinism.....it is your teaching. I did not make the label.....it exists however....and you are it.:thumbs:

how can it be hyper Calvinism. Wherever in my posts did I say that there is no need to preach the gospel ?
We preach it in our churches.
We preach it among ourselves (elders).
We do not shy away from it.
But we preach it for what it is: A gospel of a cross that is past, a Savior that is victorious, and of a Spirit that works in the regeneration of His own, INDEPENDENT OF ANY MEANS.We preach it as a way of life: trust in God, always in everything, for Him to come through for His people in the darkest of darkest nights, in the most vicious storms of life.
We preach it as that of an empty tomb of a Redeemer scorned by sinful men, as proof that one day the redeemed's tomb will itself be empty.
We preach it as the eternal blood shed in time for the eternal redemption of His own, and only they.

That is hyper-Calvinism ? Then I gladly own it.


see...I told you. You said it, not me.

I need to be out of town and don't want to be rude with my hosts by taking so much time on their computer when I get there, so I'll be back in a day or two.....take care ..... :thumbsup:

 

[Zaac]

Isn't there a special forum for these type Cal/Arm discussions?

 

[Iconoclast]

Isn't there a special forum for these type Cal/Arm discussions?

this is a biblical discussion on how God uses means
if you're uncomfortable with it look up the basket weaving forum or coffee house