Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The gospel message is what the Lord uses to save his own people, so keep on preaching the Cross!

Wait a minute, do you seriously think brain damaged people....or children who die in infantsy.......and children who are aborted are all going to hell because they did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel? Next you will be saying that without baptism you are unsaved. Another way of looking at this Y is to ask just who really saves.....I hope you are going to say Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith is innate to the nature of man, just as "joy" and "love" and "hope" are innate to the nature of man. However, what is not innate to the nature of man is God's type of faith, joy, hope and love simply because all of God's type are rooted in his own nature and not in human nature, and that is why WE MUST BE BORN OF GOD - receive His nature.

1. Thus saving faith, the ability to savingly submit to Christ is foreign to our depraved nature - Rom. 8:7-8 and is the "work of God" - Jn. 6:29

2. God first must GIVE men to Christ in order for them to "come" to him - Jn. 6:36 in contrast to John 6:37. Note the future tense "shall come" as the conseuqence of already having been given to Christ by the Father.

3. God first must DRAW men to Christ in order for any man to "come" to him - Jn. 6:44 and God did not draw "some disicples" including Judas to come to Christ in real saving faith (Jn. 6:64-65).

Regeneration and conversion are inseparable as much as repentance and faith are inseparable. They have a logical order but they do not have any chronological order and the logical order is spiritual life before spiritual activity.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

pinoybaptist

Preaching is an act of a man, unable to be at all places at all times, therefore not all of God's people in this time world will be reached by the gospel.

God is in control of it.

It is the Holy Spirit, and only Him, God Himself, who is able to reach each and everyone of His own, regenerate Him, and draw him to Christ.

God uses means, gospel preaching also.

Do you, or Mitchell, and others on here think your all's eloquence and knowledge of Scripture did that to whoever you all may have converted ?
Nah.
The Holy Spirit was there before you.

So then...if what you say is true why did God send Philip to the eunuch?

Why not just send the Spirit to go to the Eunuch?

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

What do I deduce from your answer here Icon?
--Are you a universalist?
--Do you deny that all have a depraved nature?
--Were you born as a child of God and escaped being a child of the devil?
--Or just because you consider yourself as one of the elect does that mean you don't have to be "born again"?

Do you ever get embarrassed by your posts?
These baseless accusations have nothing to do with the op.:laugh::laugh:

You seem to deny some very essential truths by the answer you gave to the scripture I gave you.

Nonsense....try quoting what I actually post...not your imagination.

The verses John 8:44; Rev.21:8 speak of the unsaved.

That is what I said...:laugh:right here DHK-

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--To which child of the devil does he give spiritual fruit to? Please explain? Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--To which of these does he give spiritual gifts to?

These are non elect being sent to hell. Oh wait...you do not really believe in election do you?

On what authority do you claim some people elect and others condemned to Hell, Icon? Who gives you that authority??

Scriptural authority.....it speaks about it quite often.:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

pinoybaptist

You still don't get it, Icon.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh at that point of history to preach repentance to the people of Nineveh.

I quoted from Jonah to discuss how God uses means...I was clearly not speaking of repentance.....respond to what I asked...I will post it again-

PYB

none of you have responded to God's use of means in the book of Jonah.
In fact you and others were saying God is not in control of a mosquito who bites someone.....

let me refresh your memory..you said this;


respond to these verses then;
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.


And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah

6 And the Lord God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief.

7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered


8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live

DO YOU SEE HOW GOD PREPARED EVERYTHING HERE?

God controls the effects of sin in His created universe, but He is not responsible for its effects. He does not use sin, or tragedy, or death, or disease, to further His divine purposes for His elect.

really?

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

As I've said before in the other thread: the fate (if you like to call it that way, since you refer to this as "fatalistic") of His elect people, all of them, even the as yet unborn has been sealed and determined by (1) the cross being past, (2) the blood being shed, (3) the tomb being empty.
Their going to heaven is unstoppable. The hell-bound are unredeemable.
So you see, those "fatalistic" statements have everything to do with these discussions.

hyper Calvinism= fatalism.....you seem to embrace it, I will distance myself from it.

The atonement is already applied, without means, save the blood of Christ.

What I can see from your posts is your insistence, just like Arminians do, that repentance and the gospel is connected to eternal salvation.
Is that correct ?

no...it is not correct

 

[DHK]

That is what I said...:laugh:right here DHK-

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--To which child of the devil does he give spiritual fruit to? Please explain? Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--To which of these does he give spiritual gifts to?

These are non elect being sent to hell. Oh wait...you do not really believe in election do you?

Why would you write something like that? That was the basis of my post.
I introduced John 8:44 as evidence that man is depraved--all men are depraved, not just the non-elect. You seem to be contradicting this.

John 8:44 applies to you as it does to me. We are children of the devil until God saves us by his grace.

Scripture?
[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,[/FONT]

There is no doubt, that we as God's elect, were at one time in the family of the devil. We were not born again, but born into the devil's family, children of wrath, children of disobedience. You were; I was.
Thus the necessity of the "new birth." We belonged to the wrong family.

In the larger scheme of things John 8:44 was spoken to all the lost, not just the Pharisees. In its immediate context he was speaking to the Pharisees (among whom was Saul, Nicodemus, and Joseph of Arimathea--all part of the Sanhedrin). Were they also all part of the "non-elect."
Your statement is too judgmental and is in error. You don't have the Biblical facts to make such a statement.
"These are non elect being sent to hell."

No, only some of them were. And you are not God who decides who goes to Hell and who doesn't. That is the issue here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK....so now I get it. These points of disagreement are related to discipleship and the scope of predestination, not on how God redeems His elect from their sins and secures them to eternal salvation, fatalistic hyper -Calvinistic commentary “ad hominem” is a little pathetic bit thrown in to diminish and attack the person.

 

[pinoybaptist]

pinoybaptist

You still don't get it, Icon.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh at that point of history to preach repentance to the people of Nineveh.

I quoted from Jonah to discuss how God uses means...I was clearly not speaking of repentance.....respond to what I asked...I will post it again-

PYB

none of you have responded to God's use of means in the book of Jonah.
In fact you and others were saying God is not in control of a mosquito who bites someone.....

let me refresh your memory..you said this;


respond to these verses then;
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.


And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah

6 And the Lord God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief.

7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered


8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live

DO YOU SEE HOW GOD PREPARED EVERYTHING HERE?

Gosh, Icon.
Look.
God did not use means to make the Ninevites turn to Him, He had already prepared them for repentance.
He had already worked in their hearts before they repented in dust and ashes.
Jonah's arrival there and his preaching simply served as the catalyst, if you will, for their turning to Jonah's God.
The parallel in the New Testament is Lydia in Acts.
Her heart was previously opened (softened) by the Lord so that she attended or believed in the things that Paul spoke about. (Acts 16:14,e).
There is the response, you just refuse to acknowledge it, look at it, and see it.

really?

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

You keep going out of context in these conversations, Icon.
We are talking of means to bring the "lost" unto repentance, aren't we ?
These Corinthians are already professed children of God, regenerates, who are acting as if they were children of hell.
Paul was talking to them about the consequences of their sins here in this time world.
In your desire to portray me and my people, the Primitive Baptists, as hyper-Calvinistic antinomians you need to go out of the discussion's context.
Stay in context, man.

hyper Calvinism= fatalism.....you seem to embrace it, I will distance myself from it.

how can it be hyper Calvinism. Wherever in my posts did I say that there is no need to preach the gospel ?
We preach it in our churches.
We preach it among ourselves (elders).
We do not shy away from it.
But we preach it for what it is: A gospel of a cross that is past, a Savior that is victorious, and of a Spirit that works in the regeneration of His own, INDEPENDENT OF ANY MEANS.
We preach it as a way of life: trust in God, always in everything, for Him to come through for His people in the darkest of darkest nights, in the most vicious storms of life.
We preach it as that of an empty tomb of a Redeemer scorned by sinful men, as proof that one day the redeemed's tomb will itself be empty.
We preach it as the eternal blood shed in time for the eternal redemption of His own, and only they.

That is hyper-Calvinism ? Then I gladly own it.

no...it is not correct

 

[pinoybaptist]

He took one in the back with a .45 & he is alive!!!! Musta been a heck of a distance.

Probably, they were running.
And no shooter, marksman or sharpshooter, can shoot at moving targets with himself moving.
Oh, wait, yeah, Hollywood has them. :laugh:

 

[PreachTony]

Wait a minute, do you seriously think brain damaged people....or children who die in infantsy.......and children who are aborted are all going to hell because they did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel? Next you will be saying that without baptism you are unsaved. Another way of looking at this Y is to ask just who really saves.....I hope you are going to say Jesus.

That's an unfair comparison, EWF. Any Baptist worth their salt will tell you that Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Dunking someone in water contains no saving grace.

From what I've gathered, it's within the Calvinist camp that people seem to be okay with babies and other innocents going to Hell, simply because God put a "DAMNED" sticker on them instead of an "ELECT" sticker when they rolled off the great spiritual conveyor belt. People with brain damage, or infants, like in your example, have either no chance to hear the gospel or no ability to understand it, therefore they cannot call on God and they cannot work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

Do you really believe our loving God would put these people on Earth without granting them the ability to understand His word or heed His call, and then would condemn them to Hell? What kind of a God is that?

 

[pinoybaptist]

PYB



All men are accountable to God......

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Again, you have gone out of the context of what is being discussed.
Stay in context, man.
Stay focused.
That is why I started this thread and moved our discussion here, so we can focus.

The discussion is about God requiring repentance of all men, elect and unelect, if I am recalling correctly.

Look at my reply:

if you're talking about the unsaved gospelly, as in the above audience of Paul, yes, we agree. If you're talking about the unsaved who are not of the elect, we do not agree.
First because they are unregenerate, and God will not order and hold accountable anyone to move whom He himself knows cannot move. Can the leopard change his spots ? remember that Scripture ?

The Scripture you have posted is about accountability to God.
I seem to remember telling you sometime somewhere that I have not absolved any man from being accountable to God.
The non-elect will be judged according to their works, and their being found or not found to be in the Lamb's Book of Lifeat the Great White Throne.

The gist of our discussion, to which you replied with the above Scripture, is WHETHER OR NOT GOD ORDERS/REQUIRES all men to repent.
I say, no, only the elect who are already regenerate.

Your scripture nowhere shows God ordering all men to repent.
It tells of all men being aware that there is a God, who has shown Himself in creation.
If at all, that Scripture shows that unless God Himself regenerates the unregenerate and dead in sin and trespasses, He will not see God in the beauty of creation around him.
He is DEAD. Bury the dead in the Grand Canyon.
Will he marvel at its grandeur and appreciate it ?
No.
He is dead.

Please.
don't just pluck out Scripture and quote it even if it is irrelevant to what is being discussed.

 

[pinoybaptist]

That's an unfair comparison, EWF. Any Baptist worth their salt will tell you that Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Dunking someone in water contains no saving grace.

From what I've gathered, it's within the Calvinist camp that people seem to be okay with babies and other innocents going to Hell, simply because God put a "DAMNED" sticker on them instead of an "ELECT" sticker when they rolled off the great spiritual conveyor belt. People with brain damage, or infants, like in your example, have either no chance to hear the gospel or no ability to understand it, therefore they cannot call on God and they cannot work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

Do you really believe our loving God would put these people on Earth without granting them the ability to understand His word or heed His call, and then would condemn them to Hell? What kind of a God is that?

PreachT: you will have to discuss that with the Calvinists....babies going to hell b/c they're not elect. EWF is not Calvinistic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

PreachT: you will have to discuss that with the Calvinists....babies going to hell b/c they're not elect. EWF is not Calvinistic.

correct...I am avowedly non calvinistic.....just because of......ahhhh you know what, Pinoy makes a point. Redirect this question to a Calvinist.

 

[PreachTony]

correct...I am avowedly non calvinistic.....just because of......ahhhh you know what, Pinoy makes a point. Redirect this question to a Calvinist.

No, I know that, EWF...I was talking more about the baptism analogy. I probably let my emotions get the better of me in the moment. I've been talking to some people lately who actually think baptism is a means of salvation. Apologies for the confusion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, I know that, EWF...I was talking more about the baptism analogy. I probably let my emotions get the better of me in the moment. I've been talking to some people lately who actually think baptism is a means of salvation. Apologies for the confusion.

No sweat!:thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

God did not use means to make the Ninevites turn to Him, He had already prepared them for repentance.

Of course God did. It was through Jonah's preaching that the city was spared. That certainly qualifies as a means to that end.

Jonah's arrival there and his preaching simply served as the catalyst, if you will, for their turning to Jonah's God.

The catalyst is the means. There is no way to get around it.

We are talking of means to bring the "lost" unto repentance, aren't we ?

Yes, means which the Lord has instituted for the furtherance of His Kingdom --gospel preaching is a major means.

But we preach it for what it is: A gospel of a cross that is past, a Savior that is victorious, and of a Spirit that works in the regeneration of His own, INDEPENDENT OF ANY MEANS.

You are going against common sense here. The preaching of the gospel is a/the means of bringing one to a saving knowledge of Christ.

 

[Rippon]

The discussion is about God requiring repentance of all men, elect and unelect, if I am recalling correctly.

Acts 17:30 is perfectly clear that God "now commands all people everywhere to repent." (NET)

First because they are unregenerate, and God will not order and hold accountable anyone to move whom He himself knows cannot move.

God has the perfect right to demand/command all people everywhere to repent. There is no reprieve, no loophole, no excuse to get anyone off the hook. Each and every person is accountable. There is no amnesty plan in effect for the non-elect.

Your scripture nowhere shows God ordering all men to repent.

I would say that "commands" is even stronger than merely "ordering" all to repent.

 

[JonC]

Acts 17:30 is perfectly clear that God "now commands all people everywhere to repent." (NET)

God has the perfect right to demand/command all people everywhere to repent. There is no reprieve, no loophole, no excuse to get anyone off the hook. Each and every person is accountable. There is no amnesty plan in effect for the non-elect.

I would say that "commands" is even stronger than merely "ordering" all to repent.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you believe in election, how do you suppose that the reprobate (without Gods grace) can repent?

 

[Rippon]

If you believe in election, how do you suppose that the reprobate (without Gods grace) can repent?

It still stands as God's command.