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Featured Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, Oct 4, 2014.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Strawman alert......DHK...I have said this hundreds of times. No one is splitting hairs....:laugh:

    Faith is the gift of God.




    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    --To which child of the devil does he give spiritual fruit to? Please explain? Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    --To which of these does he give spiritual gifts to?
     
    #61 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #62 DHK, Oct 6, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Faith is innate to the nature of man, just as "joy" and "love" and "hope" are innate to the nature of man. However, what is not innate to the nature of man is God's type of faith, joy, hope and love simply because all of God's type are rooted in his own nature and not in human nature, and that is why WE MUST BE BORN OF GOD - receive His nature.

    1. Thus saving faith, the ability to savingly submit to Christ is foreign to our depraved nature - Rom. 8:7-8 and is the "work of God" - Jn. 6:29

    2. God first must GIVE men to Christ in order for them to "come" to him - Jn. 6:36 in contrast to John 6:37. Note the future tense "shall come" as the conseuqence of already having been given to Christ by the Father.

    3. God first must DRAW men to Christ in order for any man to "come" to him - Jn. 6:44 and God did not draw "some disicples" including Judas to come to Christ in real saving faith (Jn. 6:64-65).

    Regeneration and conversion are inseparable as much as repentance and faith are inseparable. They have a logical order but they do not have any chronological order and the logical order is spiritual life before spiritual activity.
     
    #63 The Biblicist, Oct 7, 2014
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    You still don't get it, Icon.
    God sent Jonah to Nineveh at that point of history to preach repentance to the people of Nineveh.
    Their repentance does not equate to their eternal salvation. Perhaps some of them were God's elect, perhaps all of Nineveh at that time were God's elect (which is unlikely).

    That God sent Jonah to them to preach repentance simply points to the Scriptural principle that in the case of His people their repentance is proof of God having worked in their hearts already (especially the king's, whom the people follow) to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

    God knew they will repent because He had already prepared their hearts for such repentance, and God was demonstrating through those events for our benefit here in our time that the call to repent, and the answering thereto, benefits His people, here in time.

    Again, I remind you of Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    God controls the effects of sin in His created universe, but He is not responsible for its effects. He does not use sin, or tragedy, or death, or disease, to further His divine purposes for His elect.
    Deadly diseases strike because this is a fallen world.
    In an unfallen good and perfect one, there would be none of those.

    As I've said before in the other thread: the fate (if you like to call it that way, since you refer to this as "fatalistic") of His elect people, all of them, even the as yet unborn has been sealed and determined by (1) the cross being past, (2) the blood being shed, (3) the tomb being empty.
    Their going to heaven is unstoppable. The hell-bound are unredeemable.
    So you see, those "fatalistic" statements have everything to do with these discussions.
    How you view them (done, ongoing, or whatever) has everything to do with the soteriology you hold.

    The atonement is over, no thanks to any means, nor anybody save Christ and His blood.
    The elect still to be born have had their sins already atoned for, what is waiting to happen to them is regeneration, and if God wills, to be brought under the care of one of His true undershepherds, for nourishment, protection, and instruction in gospel living in this time world on their way to their true home.
    The atonement is already applied, without means, save the blood of Christ.
    What I can see from your posts is your insistence, just like Arminians do, that repentance and the gospel is connected to eternal salvation.
    Is that correct ?
     
    #64 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
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  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Yes, because Revelations 5:9 says so: And they sung a new song, saying , Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain , and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    God's people, whose names are in His book, live and lived everywhere on this planet, here in time, in every corner, island, islet, continent, or sub-continent, wherever man is found (as the song says), in every segment of time and history. However. not all of His people will go under gospel instruction, gospel preaching, or the gospel "call", simply because the agency by which God chose to implement time salvation is man, who is NOT omnipresent.

    see above, as to "all nations". "Jerusalem" as "Israel" does stands for God's people, all His elect, regenerate or as yet, unregenerate.


    No. I do not believe God's elect (not just the regenerates) are in any danger of perishing in the lake of fire.
    The fact of sin is universal.
    Paul addressed that in Romans 1.
    That is what He went up the cross, to atone for His people, only them, to shed His blood for His people, only them, to redeem His people from the bondage of sin and their debts, only them.
    However, don't you think if He were speaking of "hellfire" above He would have said so already ?
    I do not hold that any of His regenerate own can live a life of sin, and not suffer the consequences, here in this time world.
    What I do hold to is that God does NOT DEMAND repentance of anyone spiritually (as yet) incapable of doing so.
    Preaching repentance, and requiring it, are two different things.

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together , as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! (Luke 13:34/Matthew 23:37).

    You preach gospel living in your church, I assume, you communicate the word, do you visit each and every member and monitor their lives ?
    I'm sure you don't.
    We don't.
    Once the word is taught, then it is the responsibility of the hearer to do the word.
    Primitive Baptists are not antinomians, as suggested by somebody in another thread.
     
    #65 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
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  6. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    You are saying two different things here. The statement bolded in "purple" I can agree with. That is what gospel teaching is all about. It is good news of a Savior who paid with His own blood the sin debt of the sinner. I have no issues with that. That is why Christ sent out His apostles, why He gave to His church preachers, teachers, etc.

    The one bolded in "blue" I simply cannot agree with. The preaching and teaching of the gospel is not in any way the means by which redemption is applied.

    The redemption of His people stands, whether they know it or not. Do you understand that human beings are limited in presence and movement ?
    That is why it is the BLOOD, not the gospel.
    The BLOOD, spilled in eternity past by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and in time at Calvary.
    The blood flows and covers time, and continents, and history.
    It covers every elect that ever existed anywhere, everywhere, in all segments of chronology, independent of any restrictive, or prohibitive, aspects of their fallen lives in this fallen world.
    The gospel has not reached the Eskimos that lived in BC times, but if God has His people there, His blood covered them as well.
    The gospel has not reached the ancestors of American or Southern Asian indians, or descendants of Filipinos, or Japanese, or Vietnamese, or Chinese, or Europeans, in the BC times, but if God had any of His elect among them, His blood, shed by His son, did.

    It is 4 a.m., Icon, for some reason I was awakened at 2 a.m.
    Facebook told me why.
    A cousin I grew up with, or rather, whom I helped raise, as a younger brother, was shot three times, mistaken identity, in the Philippines, results unknown as yet.
    I gotta take a few winks before going to work.
    I'll catcha later.
     
    #66 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
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  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    My condolences Brother Tim.
     
    #67 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 7, 2014
  8. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    just got pm'd by his niece.
    looks like the lucky sonavagun is going to make it.
    3 shots from a .45 from a distance ?
    :laugh:
    looks like he got one in the back, one in the leg, and one in the thigh.
    he wasn't the target.
    he was talking with a friend outside the friend's house, the friend suddenly started to run, he started to run, not knowing why the friend was running :laugh: then he heard shots, next thing he knows, he's in hospital.
    lots of loose firearms over there, brother.
    we got a city in a province where almost everybody born and raised there is an expert gunsmith.
    and still Marcos was able to impose Martial Law in his time.:BangHead:
     
    #68 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    hi, van.
    sorry I wasn't able to reply.
    no disrespect meant.
    I'll check in with you later tonight.
    initially, though, I'd like to remind you of Romans 15:4, the Bible was written for believers and God's people, and them only. Any instruction we find therein, any reference to events in the past and how God dealt with His people or those not His people, and how it affected its people, is for us, and I daresay, for us of this generation, "upon whom the end of the world has come".

    Secondly, the Jezebel spoken about was not the Phoenician princess married to Ahab, but her name was used to characterize that church that the Lord ordered to repent because of their conduct which reflected the idolatry and wanton character of Jezebel. So the call to repent was still to His people, the church being criticized in that verse.

    got to work.
    see ya later.
     
    #69 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Anyone can nullify scripture by rewriting it. Add a qualifier and viola, Jezebel becomes symbolic of unrepentant believers. But that interpretation is liberal, i.e. reading between the lines to alter what is actually written. This is how the text is manipulated to support doctrine.

    In this case, about a half dozen verses must be said to not mean what they say. For example John wrote so that we might believe, thus to non-believers. That is what he actually wrote.

    I have nothing more to add to this discussion.
     
    #70 Van, Oct 7, 2014
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Luke is describing the total audience "TO" which they are to go preaching repentance, whereas, John is actually denying your interpretation as he qualifies who the elect are "OUT OF" all nations. By no stretch of imagination can you make "all nations" EQUAL "OUT OF" all nations.



    Again, you are ignoring the wording of the scripture and rewording it to fit your views. He is talking about LOCATIONS where they should begin and end. LOCATIONS do not stand for God's elect. Jerusalem is given as a LOCATION to begin preaching. Samaria is given as a LOCATION to preach. "UNTO" the uttermost parts of the earth describes the LOCATION unto which they are to go preaching.



    He is not addressing disciples but "some" (Lk. 13:1)in his audience of unbelievers who believed the physical death of such persons were objects of God's wrath because of their sins. Saved people are no longer under God's wrath, and therefore Jesus could not possibly be speaking of the elect. He is speaking of the unrepentant lost person whose ultimate end is perishing under God's wrath just as He uses the word "perish" in John 3;16 in contrast to those believing.

    Justifying faith is impossible apart from gospel repentance, as gospel repentance is a change of mind - change from unbelief to belief.
     
    #71 The Biblicist, Oct 7, 2014
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK
    The strawman groweth...major strawman alert

    ...Can you post without being dishonest???

    As Rippon stated earlier?;





    I have never posted such a thing. It is not what I believe. My view that all of these gifts happen at one point in time has NEVER changed.
    I have posted several dozen times the same thing on BB.IN fact ...You have continued with your ungodly accusations about this very topic in reference to me several times and I have asked you to stop as it is dishonest and unchristian to do so.
    Here is some of what I have posted;


    Thank you for this helpful post REFORMED it sounds like a section I read today from Redemption ,Accomplished and Applied, by J.Murray,pg 103

    Regeneration is the beginning of all saving grace in us, and all saving grace in exercise on our part proceeds from the fountain of regeneration.

    We are not born again by faith or repentance or conversion: we repent and believe because we have been regenerated.

    No one can say in truth that Jesus is the Christ except by regeneration of the Spirit and that is one of the ways by which the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ.

    The embrace of Christ in faith is the first evidence of regeneration and only thus may we know that we have been regenerated.


    The priority 0f regeneration might create the impression that a person could be regenerated and not yet converted. These passages in 1 jn should correct any such misapprehension....1 jn 3:9,5:4,5:18

    When put together these texts expressly state that every regenerate person has been delivered from the power of sin, overcomes the world by the faith of Christ, and exercises that self control by which he is no longer the slave of sin and of the evil one.
    [/QUOTE]

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=91595&highlight=regeneration&page=5
     
    #72 Iconoclast, Oct 7, 2014
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    He took one in the back with a .45 & he is alive!!!! Musta been a heck of a distance.
     
    #73 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 7, 2014
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, of course. I am not dishonest. It seems that way to you when you contradict yourself.
    The view that God gives faith to the unbeliever is an unscriptural view, whether you believe it happens at the same time or not. We know that the Calvinist, for the purposes of their own theology has an ordu salutis (sp?). It is: regeneration, faith, salvation. I believe you agree with that--For all intents and purposes that faith, though it precedes salvation, does not precede regeneration. If it did then somehow it would take away from "God's work of regeneration" and become a work of man, which is an entirely ridiculous viewpoint, for faith is not a work.
    Romans 4:1-5 teaches clearly that faith is not a work. It sets it in clear opposition to works.
    Faith precedes both regeneration and salvation which happen simultaneously. A man has faith during the sum total of his life. Little children have faith. Faith is not supernatural. Little children put faith in their parents. Some day the object of their faith will become Jesus Christ (if they are of the elect). When the object of their faith is in Christ, then they will be saved. Faith is faith. Then God will add to that faith. That faith will grow, as their personal relationship with the Lord will grow. It is called sanctification.
    Here is your contradiction. You said all happens simultaneously. Now you don't. Now you say Regeneration comes first. It is at the beginning. It is not simultaneous at all. Make up your mind!
    The previous statements at the beginning of this post are further contradicted. What does John 1:12 say about the new birth?

    But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe in his name.
    This is speaking of the new birth as verse 13 goes on to explain..."which were born of God." It comes by receiving him...believing in his name."
    Note why Israel were not regenerated. By their own free will, they rejected him (vs.11).
    "He came to his own, but his own received him not."
    A man does not go into the middle of a forest and is suddenly and mysteriously regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
    He is regenerated by the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God, which he must believe (1Pet.1:23).
    "Born again through the Word of God." Belief in the Word of God is an essential. That Word is the gospel.
    I know I have been regenerated when I have trusted Christ. It is an act of God to be sure. But it comes after I have decided to come to him, and not before. I must make that decision.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=91595&highlight=regeneration&page=5[/QUOTE]
    Agreed, except that it is impossible for one to be regenerated without one putting their faith in Christ first.
     
    #74 DHK, Oct 7, 2014
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  15. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    II Helv. 10:6

    http://www.esvbible.org/resources/creeds-and-catechisms/article-the-second-helvetic-confession-1566

    "we do not allow of the wicked speeches of some who say, Few are chosen, and seeing I know not whether I am in the number of these few, I will defraud my nature of her desires. Others there are who say, If I be predestinated and chosen of God, nothing can hinder me from salvation, which is already certainly appointed for me, whatsoever I do at any time; but if I be in the number of the reprobate, no faith or repentance will help me, seeing the decree of God can not be changed: therefore all teachings and admonitions are to no purpose. Now, against these men the saying of the apostle makes much, “The servants of God must be apt to teach, instructing those that are contrary-minded, proving if God at any time will give them repentance, that they may come to amendment out of the snare of the devil, which are taken of him at his pleasure” (2 Tim 2:24-26)."
     
    #75 Jerome, Oct 7, 2014
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  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Hi, Jerome. What is it you are saying ? Thank you.
     
    #76 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
  17. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Hadn't seen that scripture posted yet.

    Do you think it's applicable?
     
    #77 Jerome, Oct 7, 2014
  18. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Yes, it is. It doesn't mean preaching the gospel to evangelize God's people is futile, though, especially in a church setting because who knows if God just brought in one of His own for nourishing.
     
    #78 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The gospel message is what the Lord uses to save his own people, so keep on preaching the Cross!
     
    #79 Yeshua1, Oct 7, 2014
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Allow me with due respects to use the phrase "gospelly save His people".:thumbs::jesus:
     
    #80 pinoybaptist, Oct 7, 2014
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