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Featured Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, Oct 4, 2014.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God has commanded all men everywhere to repent....The duty to repent does not depend on the persons ability , or knowledge...they are responsible.

    I can post more if you like:thumbs:
     
    #41 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    no, I find fault with your limiting God's grace and mercy to ONLY THOSE WHO will hear and obey the gospel. Read the post.
    God is under no obligation to save anyone.

    But Scriptures are definite.
    From the foundation of the world, God wrote names in the book of life.

    Revelation 13:8
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    The beast that thou sawest was , and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder , whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was , and is not, and yet is Revelation 17:8

    Those were the names of all His people whom He elected unto salvation before they even knew how to say "religion" or "soteriology" or "theology" or even mama or dada.

    Those were the names of all His people who will be born in every tongue, nation, and kindred all over the world, under every political, racial, theological, philosophical, or credal division in a fallen world that a fallen mankind (not God) is responsible for.


    Those are the names of His people whom His Son Jesus Christ redeemed with His blood, not with His gospel.

    Revelation 5:9
    And they sung a new song, saying , Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain , and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    These are His own, whom He has called sheep always, before, during, or after the preaching of the gospel, or the putting of His word in writing.
    They have always been His people.

    Psalm 90:1-2 - Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth , or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

    Moses didn't say "will be", or "coming generations", he said "hast been"..."all generations". God is His people's God, whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not, whether the believe it or not. Gospel or no gospel.

    He redeemed them despite themselves.
    Titus 3:5 -Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    You, and Mitchell, on the other hand, and almost every Calvinist I have encountered, whether here on this board, or elsewhere, would have ONLY THOSE THAT HEAR THE GOSPEL have a chance at regeneration and salvation IF THEY BELIEVE AND OBEY IT.

    So, like I asked somebody else.
    When was the foundation of the world ?
    Can you put a finger on it ?
    Is it after the cross, and the great commission was given, and the gospel first began to be preached ?
    That is an honest question which I expect an answer for because I did meet people who say so.
    Are you one of them ?
     
    #42 pinoybaptist, Oct 6, 2014
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Now, here's my doctrinal conclusion on the matter.
    God foresaw the fall of mankind in Adam.
    And in His Omniscience also knew everything that will transpire in this time world, down to every human being who will exist.
    Out of this fallen race of mankind, He chose out His people.
    He wrote their names in His mind (the book of life).
    Recall that He spoke of a time when there will be those He will turn away with the words: I NEVER KNEW YOU.
    His body was broken, and His blood shed, for those who were with Him at the Lord's Table, as well as for everyone whose names were written in His book of life, and some of those existed in time before Him, some during His time, ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just in Israel.
    Some of them were even in the crowd that mocked Him as He hung on that cross.
    Some were drowned in the flood (read the genealogies).
    I like the way a singer put it: "none of them could understand, the One they saw was Christ the Lamb....."
    His blood shed in eternity past as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, was also shed in time as the Lamb of Calvary.
    Therefore, when that blood was shed, and that body was broken, it accomplished everything that that body was broken for, and that blood was shed for.
    The redemption of sinners.
    Specifically, HIS OWN and ONLY HIS OWN.
    THAT IS THE GOSPEL.
    It does not redeem, it does not save unto heaven.
    It TELLS His ignorant (as yet) redeemed that THEIR REDEMPTION is steadfast, sure, and unmovable.
    Their place in the kingdom of God is secure, and their journey to Heaven, unstoppable.

    But you, and Mitchell, have made the gold holy, instead of the temple that makes it holy.
    Whereas God has extended His grace and mercy to an innumerable host from fallen mankind, before and after the gospel, you and Calvinism, and, what an unlikely duo, Mitchell, and the other two, would limit it to only those who hear the gospel, believe, and obey, and repent.

    Am I saying repentance has no place ?
    No way.
    But repentance is an act of a regenerate man, and it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates.
    Preaching is an act of a man, unable to be at all places at all times, therefore not all of God's people in this time world will be reached by the gospel.
    It is the Holy Spirit, and only Him, God Himself, who is able to reach each and everyone of His own, regenerate Him, and draw him to Christ.
    Do you, or Mitchell, and others on here think your all's eloquence and knowledge of Scripture did that to whoever you all may have converted ?
    Nah.
    The Holy Spirit was there before you.
     
    #43 pinoybaptist, Oct 6, 2014
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  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    well, guys, I came home from church later than usual.
    what with having to pick up the wife from work.
    I lay down to rest a little bit at 6 pm and wouldn't you know it, woke up 1 am so I decided to just let it go.
    ain't always I get a deep sleep, gotta take advantage of it anytime the Lord allows it.
    so I woke up at 5 a.m. took awhile to do the above replies to Icon.
    it's 6:30 and the wife, my secretary of defense and the treasury, she wants to go to work early and munch on her favorite bread at Starbuck's.
    So, like everybody else, we gotta eke out a living.
    catcha all later tonight.
    or, as usual, I'll try to sneak in a reply or two via my android.
    Y'all have a blessed day.
     
    #44 pinoybaptist, Oct 6, 2014
  5. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn Well-Known Member

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    I have a question for Icon. Do you believe a person can repent before he is regenerated ? I am talking about the repentance that is acceptable with God.
     
    #45 salzer mtn, Oct 6, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Would you agree that the Great Commission to "all nations" is general? Luke's version of the commission states:

    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Or do you believe that "all nations" and "Jerusalem" merely stand for those already regenerated??

    Do you believe the elect or regenerate are in danger of perishing?

    Lk. 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
    2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish    .

    It seems here that Jesus is arguing in the very reverse of your premise? He is denying that repentance is just for specific persons but rather is a command to "all" just as he is denying that the incidents that caused the death of specific ones listed restricted sinfulness to just those killed but ALL are just as sinful. Hence, his call to repentance is universal "all" rather than to specific individuals.
     
    #46 The Biblicist, Oct 6, 2014
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #47 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Exactly....the call goes out...they do not want to obey,,,,,But God ....eph2:4
     
    #48 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This is declared to be true from Gods point of view. No one can question this.

    You keep mixing up the accomplishment of redemption...payment by blood,
    by the Lamb of God. His person and work...and the application of redemption through the preaching and teaching of the gospel...Here in Rev 5:9 for example...You say...it is by the blood.....yes it is...however it is the proclamation of the gospel that this blood payment for sinners is explained and proclaimed....

    from the 1689'







    And they sung a new song, saying , Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain , and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    These are His own, whom He has called sheep always, before, during, or after the preaching of the gospel, or the putting of His word in writing.
    They have always been His people.

    Psalm 90:1-2 - Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth , or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

    Moses didn't say "will be", or "coming generations", he said "hast been"..."all generations". God is His people's God, whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not, whether the believe it or not. Gospel or no gospel.He redeemed them despite themselves.
    Titus 3:5 -Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;[/QUOTE]


    3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )



    4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess. ( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

    2tim1:9
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

    Scripture does ...

    Most look to the revealed Gen3:15-
    we are also told-
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham

    If we are told God had preached the "gospel" to Abraham....by the Covenant promise before the incarnation ,why do you seem to despise its preaching?

    I am one who knows the gospel must go worldwide as God demands...not hidden under a bushel.
     
    #49 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #50 DHK, Oct 6, 2014
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    #51 Jerome, Oct 6, 2014
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK;

    .

    yes I have considered that That is why I responded to SM as I did.
    It all is granted [graced} by God to the sinner at regeneration. The Holy Spirit indwelling the previously dead sinner{ unsaved} God brings him from death to life. Every time God saves a sinner he grants spiritual gifts to the unsaved sinner...that is how the unsaved become saved:wavey::thumbsup:


    I do not share your idea on this. It is mistaken.
    What you are speaking of is a natural human trust.....it does not save.
    Not everyone has saving faith;
    2 Thessalonians 3:2

    And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    Anyone who is saved has been granted repentance and faith.

    It is the gift of God....:thumbs:
     
    #52 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #53 DHK, Oct 6, 2014
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    First, regeneration and salvation are simultaneous. One cannot split hairs over any period of time here. They take place at the same time. In order to be saved one must have faith (not from God.)
    God commanded "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." The command is not "Believe with God's belief or God's faith..." Ludicrous!
    God does not give faith to the unsaved to believe. The Bible does not teach that anywhere. Faith is a spiritual gift only to the saved. You say he gives gifts to the unsaved? Impossible! Does he give all the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved? The fruit of souls as well? Why not make him a Christian without regeneration, Icon?

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    --To which child of the devil does he give spiritual fruit to? Please explain?

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    --To which of these does he give spiritual gifts to?
    You don't agree that God changes lives after they are saved?
    You don't agree that those who trust Christ should change in their behavior or their lives should evidence a change.
    Perhaps you believe in perpetual backsliding??
    The Bible does not use the term "saving faith." Yes, all men have faith. Jesus said that unless your faith was as the faith of a small child you could not enter the kingdom of God. All, even small children, have faith.
    The verse more accurately says:

    (MKJV) And pray that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for all do not have the faith.
    --Quite true. All men do not have the Bible, the faith, the truth that is summed up within the pages of the Bible, our Baptist faith so to speak. That is what the word means here. It is in opposition to what unreasonable and wicked men believe.
    That gift is granted to believers only. First they must come to Christ on their own accord, of their own free will.
     
    #54 DHK, Oct 6, 2014
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Your theory is doctrinally unsound --that is unorthodox. Unless the Lord interposes and gives faith and repentance to those of His choosing they would never be saved.

    The above is just a sample of your all-too-typical MO. You deliberately attribute the worst kind of utter nonsense to someone from thin air. Icon said nothing that would lead to any of the above absurdities. You need to just stop with your dishonesty.
    No, they don't. Your theory is not biblical.
    Then don't deny it. So the MKJV is a more accurate rendering even though it says virtually the same thing in nearly all english versions? Not everyone has faith. It is obvious and biblical. And as you said --quite true.
    Since there is no such thing as free will your premise is wrong. People have enslaved wills --that is why God, in His graciousness intercedes on behalf of the elect and gives them faith and repentance. They can't come to Him on their own. As John 6:44 says:'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them..." In verse 37 of the same chapter Jesus says:"All those the Father gives me will come to me..."

    There is no such thing as someone coming to Christ on their own power --it is an anti-biblical concept.
     
    #55 Rippon, Oct 6, 2014
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    again, you are mixing gospel salvation, which does require repentance, obedience, faith and all those things you want to throw in with eternal salvation, which alone is the work of Christ, from eternity past, to the cross at Calvary.
    therein lies all this misunderstanding.
     
    #56 pinoybaptist, Oct 6, 2014
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Brother,
    You beat me to it and said exactly what I wanted to say:wavey:
    His posting is agenda driven and another denial of mans condition as dead in Adam.
    Dhk has a theology where man did not die in the fall. He has unrepentant sinners who just come to Jesus on their own. They come to Jesus even though Jesus says no man can come unless drawn of the Father.

    Yes his M.O. remains the same:laugh::laugh:

    It is always easier to go after the strawman...lol
     
    #57 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    PYB,

    It is not either or....but both and.:thumbsup:
     
    #58 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2014
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  19. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    what do you mean ?
    and, oh, yes, I am in the process of replying to your earlier posts.
    bear with me.
     
    #59 pinoybaptist, Oct 6, 2014
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Let me repeat: I am on the for nished (should read "for the finished"..typed the previous in an android phone with that infernal auto-correct) and complete redemption and salvation of all the elect INDEPENDENT of any and all acts of righteousness (on their part) save that of Christ therefore repentance or the preaching of the gospel is for TIMELY purposes only. Disprove that, first of all.

    Disprove or rebut what I said that the redemption of all the elect is INDEPENDENT of any and all acts of righteousness (on their part) save that of Christ, therefore repentance or the preaching of the gospel is for TIMELY purposes only before you ask me or have me discuss various things in one post.

    Then we'll deal with the rest of your post.

    We have to do it this way because in my observation on this board most of the time, the discussants end up talking past each other because of long quoted posts, PLUS, for some reason the Baptist Board webmasters have decided to rewrite the scripts in which the full post (quotes and all) can be copied.
     
    #60 pinoybaptist, Oct 6, 2014
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