Calvinists Please Explain Something for Me...

[DrJamesAch]

The Calvinist Hebrews 6 Conundrum

"they" gon' say they wuz never saved, bro.

I would explain this verse, but most Calvie's wouldn't believe it if I did, so I'll just explain the conundrum.

The plain reading of the verse is:

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

According to Calvinist theology, a person must be granted repentance by God.
The conundrum here is that:

1. The person in this verse could have never repented the first time according to Calvinist theology if this person was never saved in the first place.

2. Then how is this person said to have been denied the RENEWAL of repentance AGAIN? If I RENEW a library book, that means it's in my possession. If I RENEW my vows, that means I am already married.

3. According to Calvinism, only an elect person can be granted repentance. So if this person fell away, and was never saved in the first place, then how could he have been offered repentance in the first place, and then lost it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus will lose none -- John 6:39.

Contextually those in Hebrews 6 who apostatized didn't have 'things that accompany salvation'.

Correct.....the verse reads.....if having fallen away.....apostates

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus will lose none -- John 6:39.

Contextually those in Hebrews 6 who apostatized didn't have 'things that accompany salvation'.

It's you that is inserting eternal consequences into the passage when none are mentioned.

 

[preacher4truth]

Correct.....the verse reads.....if having fallen away.....apostates

Agreed. The fact is Jesus won't lose any of those given to Him by the Father.

There are other cases in this passage worth thought --

1) That it is a solemn warning to those hearing, not that they could lose salvation, but to make it certain.

2) That the case is hypothetical, and used to illustrate repentance cannot be renewed at all, that it is unnecessary.

3) That they don't need to be renewed to repentance, because such is an impossibility, but need to produce evidence of salvation.

-and more-

I'm not saying these are all my ideas, or that I agree with them all either, but are simply things I have read in commentary through the years.

If they were again lost, then John 6:39 isn't true. God forbid that. I believe Jesus words here need to be used in interpreting this difficult passage of Hebrews 6 that has troubled many believers. If they were lost 'again' (just to use this phrase) or apostate, then they were never His in the first place.

That Jesus will lose none is solemn, comforting truth.

 

[DrJamesAch]

The explanation that this person is an apostate does not help the Calvinist position because that would imply that the person was saved. An apostate isn't a person who was never saved in the first place, an apostate is someone who turns their back on their religion. (apostasia, defect or revolt).

If an apostate is an unsaved person, since when do unsaved persons get enlightened, taste the heavenly gifts, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost (v. 4)?

And this is certainly NOT hypothetical:

" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,"

 

[kyredneck]

You all are promoting a false premise that 'true Christians' can never make shipwreck of their faith. Why these admonitions then?:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

 

[preacher4truth]

It's you that is inserting eternal consequences into the passage when none are mentioned.

Which eternal consequences did I insert?

None.

I gave two passages and gave context.

Now we have this as well 'But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed and its end is to be burned.'

Now back to what I originally said:

Jesus will lose none -- John 6:39

Contextually those in Hebrews 6 who apostatized didn't have 'things that accompany salvation'.

Nothing imposed there above kyredneck. :thumbs:

Now, one not having salvation? Well, I suppose there are eternal consequences to that.

I've imposed nothing on the text, I've simply given some context and the words of Christ. Maybe you're reading too much into it since it perchance disagrees with your position on the text?

I just don't happen to agree with your assessment that they were saved (which is what it looks like you've held to) Perhaps you feel they are still His and saved?

According to the writer there is a 'beg to differ' as he writes and shows that compared to them who he had hope, that in there case there were things that accompany salvation which shows the others did not possess these same things.

 

[preacher4truth]

You all are promoting a false premise that 'true Christians' can never make shipwreck of their faith. Why these admonitions then?:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

So Jesus does lose the ones given to Him? Impossible.

Or is your understanding and usage of these passages incorrect? Probable.

Jesus will lose none. Those that make shipwreck and apostatize could not have been His. They were hogs and dogs cleaned up that returned to wallowing in mire and to their vomit. Signs they were never His.

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 11:
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 John 2:
9 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I would explain this verse, but most Calvie's wouldn't believe it if I did, so I'll just explain the conundrum.

The plain reading of the verse is:

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

According to Calvinist theology, a person must be granted repentance by God.
The conundrum here is that:

1. The person in this verse could have never repented the first time according to Calvinist theology if this person was never saved in the first place.

2. Then how is this person said to have been denied the RENEWAL of repentance AGAIN? If I RENEW a library book, that means it's in my possession. If I RENEW my vows, that means I am already married.

3. According to Calvinism, only an elect person can be granted repentance. So if this person fell away, and was never saved in the first place, then how could he have been offered repentance in the first place, and then lost it?

Calvinists, well, at least, the real ones I know of, and those in the persuasion of the Doctrine(s) of Grace, would not say that this person was never saved in the first place.
In my post, the "they" who would say these were never saved, refers to Arminians and semi-pelagians.
I know because I was once a Bible Baptist, KJVO, Baptist-brider (and not just Baptists but BIBLE Baptists) and when they got to the passage kyredneck cited, they emphasize these people were never saved in the first place or leastways that's what the Bible Baptists in my former neck of the woods said.
But, congratulations, Doc, you just articulated what Calvinists, DoG's, and even some level-headed Arminians and semis believe regarding that passage.= if I read you correctly.
Strange, ain' it ?
lol.

 

[preacher4truth]

kyredneck, correct me if I am wrong here.

Didn't you interpret Romans 2:6ff (perhaps prior verses) in the past that within the passage we are saved by works?

Yes? No?

 

[jbh28]

An agent is free if he does what he most wants to do.

correct. We always choose what we want the most with the options available to us at the time.

the example I've used before. If you are approached by someone with a gun and he demands your wallet, you have 2 choices. 1) keep your wallet, 2) give him your wallet. No of course we would want to keep our wallet, but in this situation, the gun changes everything. The choice here is really 1) keep your wallet and die, 2) give him you wallet and live. You chose 2 because your desire to live is greater than your desire to keep your wallet and die. so you choose to give you wallet.

So here, as in every choice anyone has ever made was based on desire. When God changes our hearts, our desires change. As we grow in our life as all believers do(2 Corinthians 3:18) our desires change.

 

[Herald]

So if a person has been regenerated, could they then freely choose to reject Christ? If they wanted to?

No. And it's not because people don't have the mental capacity not to choose Christ. Once the sinner has been regenerated the desire for Christ is overwhelming. The scales have been removed from their eyes (Acts 9:18); their spiritual blindness is gone. Once all they could see was only darkness. In instant they recognize the death, despair, and hopelessness of that darkness and see the Light of the World (John 8:12) in contrast. Remember that the first man was created to serve God and walk in constant fellowship with Him. He was able to do so until sin was found in him. What is being liberated from sin is that ability to freely serve God because of a new nature. It's not so much a prevention from choosing against God (which every sinner does so well) as it is being freed to enjoy the benefits of Adam's pre-fallen state through the righteousness found in the last Adam - Christ.

 

[InTheLight]

IMO, audience relevance (that generation of Jews that crucified Christ) has everything to do with the correct understanding of the passage; and it's NOT that God can't, He WON'T grant repentance to these.

He regenerated them (presumably) because they were predestined. So He changed his mind?

 

[InTheLight]

correct. We always choose what we want the most with the options available to us at the time.

This denies every unselfish choice ever made.

So here, as in every choice anyone has ever made was based on desire.

Like the soldier in the foxhole that falls on a grenade to save his buddies? Like the person that donates a kidney to his sibling?

When God changes our hearts, our desires change. As we grow in our life as all believers do(2 Corinthians 3:18) our desires change.

But God is determining these choices for us. They are not "free choices".

 

[jbh28]

No. And it's not because people don't have the mental capacity not to choose Christ. Once the sinner has been regenerated the desire for Christ is overwhelming. The scales have been removed from their eyes (Acts 9:18); their spiritual blindness is gone. Once all they could see was only darkness. In instant they recognize the death, despair, and hopelessness of that darkness and see Light of the World (John 8:12) in contrast. Remember that the first man was created to serve God and walk in constant fellowship with Him. He was able to do so until sin was found in him. What is being liberated from sin is that ability to freely serve God because of a new nature. It's not so much a prevention from choosing against God (which every sinner does so well) as it is being freed to enjoy the benefits of Adam's pre-fallen state through the righteousness found in the last Adam - Christ.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

So Jesus does lose the ones given to Him? Impossible.

Or is your understanding and usage of these passages incorrect? Probable.

Jesus will lose none. Those that make shipwreck and apostatize could not have been His. They were hogs and dogs cleaned up that returned to wallowing in mire and to their vomit. Signs they were never His.

And I reiterate:

"It's you that is inserting eternal consequences into the passage when none are mentioned."

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck, correct me if I am wrong here.

Didn't you interpret Romans 2:6ff (perhaps prior verses) in the past that within the passage we are saved by works?

Yes? No?

We all will be JUDGED by our works.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Ever wonder why Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, wrote a letter specifically to HEBREWS when they are under blindness during the church age? Rom 11:25

Hebrews has all the tremendous truths about the OT sacrifices and the how Christ fulfilled all the types, but Hebrews is for TRIBULATION JEWS, NOT the current Gentile church.

When the door is reopened to the Jews during the tribulation is when all of these elements in Hebrews apply. The 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 are JEWISH churches (unless you think God cares about whether Gentiles tried Jews 2:2, 9, 3:9, and you misinterpret "he that hath ears let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churcheS [not the church] there's more, but a diligent study of Rev 2-3 will show these are tribulation churches although they also represent different church stages of history). There are 144,000 LITERAL JEWS sealed out of the 12 tribes of Israel, each tribe is by name. Rev 7:4-8. And it is Israel that is protected from the beast after all hell breaks loose after the beast kills the 2 witness. Rev 12:1,6,14.

During the tribulation, if you don't take the mark of the beast, you die. Rev 13:11-18. That causes many to take the mark of the beast because they face death, as well as starve because no man can buy or sell with out the mark. Notice that in Hebrews 6:4 they are PARTAKERS but not SEALED as we are in this age. Eph 1:13, 4:30. The Holy Spirit is not present on earth during the tribulation as He is in the church age. It will be as it was on the old testament. Ps 51:11.

A person still lives by faith, but during the tribulation they demonstrate that by faith by risking martyrdom. If they reject the Holy Spirit when He illuminates them after hearing the ministry of the 144,000 under the 2 witnesses of Rev 11:3, they WILL worship the beast. Rev 14:9-10.

The early rain and the latter rain are addressed in Hebrew 6:7-8 and if you try and take Hebrews 6:4-8, or Hebrews 10 and apply it to the church in this age, you will have a skewed theology, and make it appear like a Christian can lose their salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

He regenerated them (presumably) because they were predestined. So He changed his mind?

"It's you that is inserting eternal consequences into the passage when none are mentioned."