Calvinists Please Explain Something for Me...

[DrJamesAch]

Calvinists, well, at least, the real ones I know of, and those in the persuasion of the Doctrine(s) of Grace, would not say that this person was never saved in the first place.
In my post, the "they" who would say these were never saved, refers to Arminians and semi-pelagians.
I know because I was once a Bible Baptist, KJVO, Baptist-brider (and not just Baptists but BIBLE Baptists) and when they got to the passage kyredneck cited, they emphasize these people were never saved in the first place or leastways that's what the Bible Baptists in my former neck of the woods said.
But, congratulations, Doc, you just articulated what Calvinists, DoG's, and even some level-headed Arminians and semis believe regarding that passage.= if I read you correctly.
Strange, ain' it ?
lol.

I don't actually BELIEVE that proposition, that's just the problem they face if they are consistent with their theology. The Arminian will use this to prove one can lose their salvation. To the Calvinist, these passages annihilate the entire idea of God granted repentance to anyone to give them faith. Both views are wrong because this passage is not meant for the present church.

 

[kyredneck]

Which eternal consequences did I insert?

None.

"impossible to renew them again unto repentance"

You take that to mean these folks are bound for hell for all eternity, yes, no?

 

[preacher4truth]

We all will be JUDGED by our works.

Answer the question.

Did you say that we are saved by our works in the past as per Romans 2?

 

[kyredneck]

Answer the question.

Did you say that we are saved by our works in the past as per Romans 2?

YOU answer the question:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

[add] And no, I've NEVER said we are born again from above on account of our good works. We do good works, i.e. 'patience in well-doing', because we have been born again from above. Is there something difficult about that to understand?

 

[kyredneck]

Answer the question P4T:

"impossible to renew them again unto repentance"

You take that to mean these folks are bound for hell for all eternity, yes, no?

 

[preacher4truth]

"impossible to renew them again unto repentance"

You take that to mean these folks are bound for hell for all eternity, yes, no?

..........

Jesus will lose none -- John 6:39.

Contextually those in Hebrews 6 who apostatized didn't have 'things that accompany salvation'.

 

[preacher4truth]

YOU answer the question:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

[add] And no, I've NEVER said we are born again from above on account of our good works. We do good works, i.e. 'patience in well-doing', because we have been born again from above. Is there something difficult about that to understand?

Did I ask if you stated we are born from above on account of good works? I trow not! :smilewinkgrin:

One more time: Did you say in the past that Romans 2:6 teaches we are saved by good works?

No need to get twisted kyredneck. Just answer the questions. It's all good. :thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed. The fact is Jesus won't lose any of those given to Him by the Father.

There are other cases in this passage worth thought --

1) That it is a solemn warning to those hearing, not that they could lose salvation, but to make it certain.

2) That the case is hypothetical, and used to illustrate repentance cannot be renewed at all, that it is unnecessary.

3) That they don't need to be renewed to repentance, because such is an impossibility, but need to produce evidence of salvation.

-and more-

I'm not saying these are all my ideas, or that I agree with them all either, but are simply things I have read in commentary through the years.

If they were again lost, then John 6:39 isn't true. God forbid that. I believe Jesus words here need to be used in interpreting this difficult passage of Hebrews 6 that has troubled many believers. If they were lost 'again' (just to use this phrase) or apostate, then they were never His in the first place.

That Jesus will lose none is solemn, comforting truth.

T0 expand on what you have offered already,and in agreement with Herald,

These Hebrews were in danger of apostasy.When this is written it was legal to practice the OT jewish worship.....Nt christian worship was not legal.
here they needed to be exhorted that to taste of the Nt worship and ministry of the Spirit in the Nt assembly,but then to draw back unto perdition was what was at stake....

P4t you correctly went ahead a few verses to indicate the solution and why this passage as well as all the warning passages have eternal consequences.

6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

7 For earth, that is drinking in the rain many times coming upon it, and is bringing forth herbs fit for those because of whom also it is dressed, doth partake of blessing from God,

8 and that which is bearing thorns and briers [is] disapproved of, and nigh to cursing, whose end [is] for burning;

9 and we are persuaded, concerning you, beloved, the things that are better, and accompanying salvation, though even thus we speak,

10 for God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the labour of the love, that ye shewed to His name, having ministered to the saints and ministering;

11 and we desire each one of you the same diligence to shew, unto the full assurance of the hope unto the end,

12 that ye may not become slothful, but followers of those who through faith and patient endurance are inheriting the promises.

this figure of thorns and briers comes from the Ot prophets and always spoke of apostates.....
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;


the obvious contrast was those who had those things that accompany salvation.....that would be the elect.
Hebrews was written for the NT church...the Christian Israel....
these professed Hebrew Christians were being exhorted not to forsake assembling with the Christians which would be apostasy...

it would show their profession of faith to be a LIE....and all liars will be found in the lake of fire....8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

 

[preacher4truth]

T0 expand on what you have offered already,and in agreement with Herald,

These Hebrews were in danger of apostasy.When this is written it was legal to practice the OT jewish worship.....Nt christian worship was not legal.
here they needed to be exhorted that to taste of the Nt worship and ministry of the Spirit in the Nt assembly,but then to draw back unto perdition was what was at stake....

P4t you correctly went ahead a few verses to indicate the solution and why this passage as well as all the warning passages have eternal consequences.

6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

7 For earth, that is drinking in the rain many times coming upon it, and is bringing forth herbs fit for those because of whom also it is dressed, doth partake of blessing from God,

8 and that which is bearing thorns and briers [is] disapproved of, and nigh to cursing, whose end [is] for burning;

9 and we are persuaded, concerning you, beloved, the things that are better, and accompanying salvation, though even thus we speak,

10 for God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the labour of the love, that ye shewed to His name, having ministered to the saints and ministering;

11 and we desire each one of you the same diligence to shew, unto the full assurance of the hope unto the end,

12 that ye may not become slothful, but followers of those who through faith and patient endurance are inheriting the promises.

this figure of thorns and briers comes from the Ot prophets and always spoke of apostates.....
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;


the obvious contrast was those who had those things that accompany salvation.....that would be the elect.
Hebrews was written for the NT church...the Christian Israel....
these professed Hebrew Christians were being exhorted not to forsake assembling with the Christians which would be apostasy...

it would show their profession of faith to be a LIE....and all liars will be found in the lake of fire....8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

Agreed. That is the context in a nutshell. :applause:

 

[preacher4truth]

By the way Icon, I've heard some say that only the 'ground' was nigh to being cursed, not the person.

That's a big miss there IMO.

 

[Iconoclast]

By the way Icon, I've heard some say that only the 'ground' was nigh to being cursed, not the person.

That's a big miss there IMO.

There are 4-5 more Ot verses that speak of the figure of thorns and briers being apostate Israelites who are destroyed by God...

AW Pink does a great job with the soils in His hebrews commentary
http://www.godrules.net/library/pink/42pink_a25.htm
The apostle’s design in this 6th chapter was to exhort the Hebrews to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-3), and to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is presented in verse 1 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostacy: (verses 4-6, note the opening “for”). His purpose in referring to this second class (of unregenerate professors, who apostatize) was, to warn against the outcome of a continuance in a state of slothfulness. Here in the similitude found in verses 6,7, he continues and completes the same solemn line of thought, showing what is the certain and fearful doom of all upon whom a regenerating work of grace is not wrought. First, however, he describes the blessedness of the true people of God. “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God; But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned” (verses 7,8).

In taking up these verses we shall endeavor to give, first, an interpretation of them; second, make an application of their contents. The interpretation respects, in its direct and local reference the Jews, or rather, two classes among the Jews; the application belongs to all who come under the sound of the Gospel.

The two verses quoted above are designed to illustrate and confirm the solemn admonition found in the six preceding verses, therefore are they introduced with the word “for”. In the context two classes of people are in view, both of which were, according to the flesh, Jews. This we have sought to establish in our previous expositions. With the first class the apostle identified himself, note the “we” in verse 3; from the second class Paul dissociates himself, note the words “those” in verse 4 and “they” in verse 6. So, too, two different pieces of ground are now described: first, fruitful ground, which depicts those who have been truly regenerated, and who in consequence, had received the Word into good and honest hearts.

Second, unfruitful ground, which represents that class against whose sin and doom the apostle was warning the Hebrews; namely, those who, however great their privileges and fair their professions, bring forth only thorns and briers, who, being rejected by God, are overtaken with swift and terrible destruction. “For the earth which drinketh in the rain”. The prime reference is to the Jewish nation. They were God’s vineyard (see Isaiah 5:7,8; Jeremiah 2:21 etc.). It was unto them God had sent all His servants, the prophets, and last of all His Son (see Matthew 21:35-37). The “rain” here signifies the Word, or Doctrine which the Lord sent unto Israel: “My doctrine shall drop as the rain” ( Deuteronomy 32:2 and cf. Isaiah 55:10,11). Note how when Ezekiel was to prophesy or preach, his message would “drop” as the rain does ( Ezekiel 21:2 and cf. Amos 7:16). The figure is very beautiful. The rain is something which no man can manufacture, nor is the Word of human origin. Rain comes down from above, so is the Gospel a heavenly gift. The rain refreshes vegetation, and causes it to grow, so too the Doctrine of God revives His people and makes them fruitful. The rain quickens living seeds in the ground, though it imparts no life to dead ones; so the Word is the Spirit’s instrument for quickening God’s elect ( John 3:5; James 1:18), who previously had (federal) life in Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

This then was the “earth” in which were the plants of God’s husbandry.

In what follows to the end of the passage the apostle distributes the plants into two classes: “herbs” (verse 7), “thorns and briers” (verse 8). The former, represent those who, having believed and obeyed the Gospel, brought forth the fruits of practical godliness. These constituted that “remnant according to the election of grace” ( Romans 11:5), which obtained mercy, when the rest of their brethren according to the flesh were blinded. These still continued to be the vineyard of the Lord, a field which He cared for. They formed the first Gospel church, gathered out from the Hebrews, which brought forth fruit to the glory of God, and was blessed by Him. The latter, were made up of obstinate unbelievers on the one hand, who persistently rejected Christ and His Gospel; and on the other hand, of those who embraced the profession of the Gospel, but after a season returned again to Judaism. These were rejected of God, fell under His curse and perished. “And bringeth forth herbs”. Several have noted the close resemblance which our present passage bears to the parable of the Sower, recorded in the Gospels. There are some notable parallels between them; the one of most importance being, to observe that in both places we have men looked at, not from the standpoint of God’s eternal counsels (as for example, Ephesians 1:3-11), but according to human responsibility. The earth which receives the rain, is a figure of the hearts and minds of the Jews, to whom the Word of God had been sent, and to whom, in the days of Christ and His apostles, the Gospel had been preached. So our Lord compared His hearers unto several sorts of ground into which the seed is cast — observe how the word “dressed” or “tilled” presupposes the seed. What response, then, will the earth make to the repeated rains? or, to interpret the figure, What fruit is brought forth by those who heard the Gospel? That is the particular aspect of truth the Holy Spirit here has before Him. “And bringeth forth herbs”. The verb here properly signifies the bringing forth of a woman that hath conceived with child, cf. Luke 1:31. So here the earth is said to bring forth as from a womb impregnated, the rains causing the seeds to issue in fruit. The Greek word for “herbs” occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It appears to be a general term for vegetables and cereals. It is found frequently in the Sept. as the equivalent of the Hebrews “eseb”, which has the same extensive meaning. Now just as the cultivator of land has a right to expect that, under the providential blessings of God, his toils shall be rewarded, that the seed he has sown and the ground he has tilled, should yield an increase, so had Jehovah the right to expect fruit from Israel: “And He looked that it (His vineyard) should bring forth grapes” ( Isaiah 5:4). “Meet for them by whom it is dressed”. The Greek may be rightly rendered thus: equally so, as in the margin, “for whom” it is dressed: either makes good sense. “By whom” would look to the actual cultivator; “for whom,” the proprietor. The apostle’s design here is to show the importance of making a proper use of receiving God’s Word: a “meet” or suitable response should be forthcoming.

The ministry of the Gospel tests the state of the hearts of those to whom it comes, just as the fallen rain does the ground which receives it

 

[HeirofSalvation]

By the way Icon, I've heard some say that only the 'ground' was nigh to being cursed, not the person.

That's a big miss there IMO.

More accurately.....the Scriptures clearly state that the serpent was "cursed" and also the "ground" was cursed: Genesis does not say that either the man or the woman were "cursed". The curses effect them drastically. But it is not a direct "curse" on they themselves. That's just the testament of Scripture:
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed

vs. 17:... cursed [is] the ground for thy sake;

Genesis does not state that the man and the woman were themselves accursed. They suffer the consequences.

 

[Winman]

No. And it's not because people don't have the mental capacity not to choose Christ. Once the sinner has been regenerated the desire for Christ is overwhelming. The scales have been removed from their eyes (Acts 9:18); their spiritual blindness is gone. Once all they could see was only darkness. In instant they recognize the death, despair, and hopelessness of that darkness and see the Light of the World (John 8:12) in contrast. Remember that the first man was created to serve God and walk in constant fellowship with Him. He was able to do so until sin was found in him. What is being liberated from sin is that ability to freely serve God because of a new nature. It's not so much a prevention from choosing against God (which every sinner does so well) as it is being freed to enjoy the benefits of Adam's pre-fallen state through the righteousness found in the last Adam - Christ.

The Philipian jailer refutes this.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

The Philipian jailer was not regenerated when he sprang in and asked how to be saved, because he had not yet believed. He did not even know what to believe. Therefore he was still spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins.

Yet he had a real desire to be saved. Yes, he was moved and influenced by the earthquake that had opened all the cells, but he could not have possibly been regenerated or spiritually alive. No man can be spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven, and no man can be forgiven until he believes.

This story absolutely refutes Total Inability.

 

[Iconoclast]

Second , “thorns and briers” are of a hurtful and noxious nature: see Ezekiel 28:24, etc.

Third , these terms tell us that all which is brought forth by the natural man is under the curse of God: Genesis 3:18, 4:11, 12. “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected”. Land which, after cultivation, brings forth only such products, is abandoned by the farmer as worthless. The Greek word here for “rejected”, signifies the setting aside as useless after trial has been made of a thing. The application of it here is to by far the greater part of the Jewish people.

First , Christ had warned them “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” ( Matthew 21:43).

Second , after their full and open rejection of Himself and His Gospel, Christ told them, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” ( Matthew 23:38).

Third , proof that the Nation as a whole had been “rejected” by God, is found in Acts 2:40, when, on the day of Pentecost, Peter bade the believing remnant, “Save yourselves from this untoward generation”. “And is nigh unto cursing”. This is in sharp contrast from what was said of the good ground: “receiveth blessing from God”. The word “cursing” here, means, “given over to execration”, or “devoted to destruction”. It was given over to be “burned”, which, according to the analogy of faith, means, it would be visited with Divine judgment. Israel had become a barren tree, a cumberer of the ground, and the word had gone forth, “Cut it down”( Luke 12:7,9). Further proof that Israel as a nation was given over to “execration”, is found in the solemn incident of Christ’s cursing of the “fig tree” ( Matthew 21:19), figure of the Jews, see Matthew 24:32. True, a short respite had been granted — another “year” ( Luke 13:8) — hence the “nigh unto cursing”. “Whose end is to be burned”. In Eastern lands, when a husbandman discovers that a piece of ground is worthless, he neglects it, abandons it.

thisis a help ful blog:
http://paradiseregained.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/john-owen-on-hebrews-64-6/

 

[Winman]

More accurately.....the Scriptures clearly state that the serpent was "cursed" and also the "ground" was cursed: Genesis does not say that either the man or the woman were "cursed". The curses effect them drastically. But it is not a direct "curse" on they themselves. That's just the testament of Scripture:
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed

vs. 17:... cursed [is] the ground for thy sake;

Genesis does not state that the man and the woman were themselves accursed. They suffer the consequences.

Exactly. Nowhere do the scriptures EVER say that God cursed man's moral nature so that he is compelled to sin and reject God. In fact, we know from scripture that Cain could have given an acceptable sacrifice if he chose to do so.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God clearly told Cain if he gave an acceptable sacrifice he would be accepted.

Was God mocking Cain, knowing he could not possibly give an acceptable sacrifice?

Did God forget that Cain was not elect and could not possibly do well?

The scriptures do not support Total Inability whatsoever, it is a man-made doctrine that is shown to be false NUMEROUS times in scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

So if a person has been regenerated, could they then freely choose to reject Christ? If they wanted to?(and)In the first phrase quoted above, a non-Cal could easily say, "when the Holy Spirit convicts us" instead of "regenerates us".

Well, to answer you second point first, I have no problem with "non-cals" acknowledging the work of Holy Spirit in conviction. Such is biblical truth and is part of the process of bringing someone to salvation.

It is enough to realize the necessity of intervention by God in the person's life.

The first question, "could a person who is regenerated by Holy Spirit freely choose to reject Christ if they wanted to?" is a non-sequitur.. that is the conclusion that a person so regenerated would then desire to reject Christ doesn't make sense.

Regeneration doesn't put a person in a "neutral" position with respect to making a decision about Christ... regeneration allows a person to see and understand the truth of their own sinfulness and their alienation from God, and see and understand the truth that Christ died for their sins and that coming to Christ in faith will heal that sinfulness and alienation. No person so worked upon by Holy Spirit will reject the offer of salvation.

 

[Winman]

Well, to answer you second point first, I have no problem with "non-cals" acknowledging the work of Holy Spirit in conviction. Such is biblical truth and is part of the process of bringing someone to salvation.

It is enough to realize the necessity of intervention by God in the person's life.

The first question, "could a person who is regenerated by Holy Spirit freely choose to reject Christ if they wanted to?" is a non-sequitur.. that is the conclusion that a person so regenerated would then desire to reject Christ doesn't make sense.

Regeneration doesn't put a person in a "neutral" position with respect to making a decision about Christ... regeneration allows a person to see and understand the truth of their own sinfulness and their alienation from God, and see and understand the truth that Christ died for their sins and that coming to Christ in faith will heal that sinfulness and alienation. No person so worked upon by Holy Spirit will reject the offer of salvation.

I just explained that the Philipian jailer refutes this. He had a real desire to be "saved", so obviously he knew he was lost.

He could not have possibly been regenerated at this point in time, because he had not yet believed. He did not even know what he had to do to be saved when he burst in to Paul and Silas, and he did not know the gospel. He was absolutely spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.

You guys just don't get it, it is impossible to be spiritually alive until your sins are forgiven, and no one's sins are forgiven until they believe.

Yet, the Philipian jailer had a sincere desire to be saved before he even knew to believe.

Total Inability is a false man-made doctrine.

 

[canadyjd]

I just explained that the Philipian jailer refutes this. He had a real desire to be "saved", so obviously he knew he was lost.

Understand that scripture does not lay out a specific formula for salvation in every account where someone is saved. Scripture doesn't provide every detail.

I think I remember you saying at one time that you believe Holy Spirit does convict a person of the sin in their lives. Do you believe that? Well, nowhere in Acts 16 does it say Holy Spirit convicted the jailer of the sin in his life. Does that mean Holy Spirit didn't convict the jailer of sin?

As far as I can see, Holy Spirit is not mentioned at all, not even that He came "upon them". Do you believe Holy Spirit indwelt the jailer when he was saved? Well, why? It doesn't say so in Acts 16. The reason it doesn't say so is because that is not the purpose of recording this event. There are other scriptures that specifically address the "how" of salvation and the role of Holy Spirit.

I think it is unwise to use the account of salvation of the jailer,.... that doesn't specifically address the "how" of salvation but rather the significance of the jailer being one of the first converts in Macedonia,... to "disprove" the doctrine of regeneration found in other scripture that is specifically addressing the "how" of salvation.

Total Inability is a false man-made doctrine.

Total inability is a scriptural doctrine, so there!!.

 

[Iconoclast]

Understand that scripture does not lay out a specific formula for salvation in every account where someone is saved. Scripture doesn't provide every detail.

I think I remember you saying at one time that you believe Holy Spirit does convict a person of the sin in their lives. Do you believe that? Well, nowhere in Acts 16 does it say Holy Spirit convicted the jailer of the sin in his life. Does that mean Holy Spirit didn't convict the jailer of sin?

As far as I can see, Holy Spirit is not mentioned at all, not even that He came "upon them". Do you believe Holy Spirit indwelt the jailer when he was saved? Well, why? It doesn't say so in Acts 16. The reason it doesn't say so is because that is not the purpose of recording this event. There are other scriptures that specifically address the "how" of salvation and the role of Holy Spirit.

I think it is unwise to use the account of salvation of the jailer,.... that doesn't specifically address the "how" of salvation but rather the significance of the jailer being one of the first converts in Macedonia,... to "disprove" the doctrine of regeneration found in other scripture that is specifically addressing the "how" of salvation. Total inability is a scriptural doctrine, so there!!.

Well said:applause::thumbs::applause: