Calvinists Please Explain Something for Me...

[jbh28]

I understand that. I was using the doctor example as an illustration.

ok.

No we won't.

Well, prove me wrong. I've demonstrated over and over again that you always do. If you are not choosing what you want, whose making you choose something else? You always choose what you want most in every circumstance with the options available to you. You can't just say no. Show me one instance that you choose something that wasn't your greatest desire of the options available.

No, according to the theology of Calvinism people come to Christ because God has determined that they will do so. They have NO choice. An honest reading of the Westminster Confession tells us this.

They do choose to come to Christ willingly because God changed their heart. They want to come to Christ. God doesn't force them to come no more than you are forced to serve Christ now that you have a new regenerated heart. You serve Christ because you want to, not because God forces you.

 

[psalms109:31]

I remember my salvation and it was not my will nor did God change my will, my will is always the same seeks evil,I denied my will to follow Jesus and took on the will of God to repent and live.

It is funny how men think they came to Jesus by their will like they came up with it on their on without the prompting of the word of God which is His will not ours.


"It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."

C.H. Spurgeon

Bold emphasis mine to simplifing what Spurgeon is saying

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Matthew 6:
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Matthew 12:
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Luke 8:
19 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”

21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”

John 6:
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


You are either doing your own will that leads to death or His will that leads to life eternal.

We are not going to receive a new heart without hearing and putting what we hear into practice

John 6:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[ Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.


Regeneration before faith is ridiculous. Always hearing and never understanding, you will never understand until you put into practice what you are hearing.


James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Herald]

I guess as OP, I'm asking the questions.

Threads go both ways, sir. Part of learning is to ask questions and be asked questions.

So why does the Westminster Confession say that God determining our actions is free will?

Have you ever considered you are asking Baptists about a Presbyterian document?

The Baptist confession (1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith) states:

Chapter 10.1

Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

In order to understand "so as they come most freely" it is important to understand the preceding part of the paragraph.

1. Effectually to call.

Those whom God has predestined unto eternal life, He effectually calls. This means God will not only call them, but that call will accomplish the purpose God intended; namely their salvation.

2. By His Word and Spirit

This is the means by which God effectually calls.

3. Out of that state of sin and death.

This is the state of man that is held in bondage to sin. It is also where man's will is prevented from operating as God originally designed in Adam.

4. Enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly (heart of flesh vs. heart of stone).

This is regeneration (preceding faith and justification). Man's spiritual eyes are now opened; illumined.

5. Renewing their wills.

The human will, fallen in Adam, is now restored to Adam's pre-fall condition, although with some important caveats (explanation following).

6. [God] determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ.

Through regeneration the sinner is given understanding of the Word, through the Spirit, and effectually (accomplishing God's intended purpose) saved.

7. Yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

This is the part that you do not like. Well, not the statement of the confession, but the response of others. Free(ly) here does not mean they have the ability to choose not to come (this is the caveat to the restoration of Adam's pre-fall will). It means they come without encumbrance. There is nothing to impede their coming to Christ. As I said earlier in this thread, "Once the sinner has been regenerated the desire for Christ is overwhelming. The scales have been removed from their eyes (Acts 9:18); their spiritual blindness is gone. Once all they could see was only darkness. In instant they recognize the death, despair, and hopelessness of that darkness and see the Light of the World (John 8:12) in contrast." Having been called by God, there is nothing to stop them from freely coming to Christ. And there is the key; they are freed to come to Christ, not freed to choose whether or not to come to Christ. That is the right understanding of what the confession is saying. Of course, you are "free" not to accept that.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous. The word of God gave me life, I had no life before that.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

 

[psalms109:31]

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!



They are going to die we are all going to die physically. God isn't concerned about our physical death here or He would do away with it. They were walking and living this isn't talking about a physical salvation, but a Spiritual one.


Luke 13

Repent or Perish

13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

 

[kyredneck]

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

I believe the answer is clear, yes, the regenerate can reject Christ.

I take this passage in the context of someone who was "enlightened" religiously under the auspices of the Old Covenant (that foreshadowed the new Covenant) and wants to be "renewed to repentance" under such terms while rejecting the mediator of the New Covenant. Since the Old Covenant was passing away, to attempt to be restored under the legalism of the Old while rejecting the New would be impossible.

That’s interesting, I’ve never considered that angle before, but the description given of them doesn’t quite jive with the notion that these are “under the auspices of the Old Covenant”, especially since ‘they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame,’ and neither does it jive with the context/description of chapter 10.

I would agree that these ‘fell away BACK' to the “auspices of the Old Covenant”, i.e. apostate Judaism, that wicked generation that killed Christ; and from that angle they genuinely would have crucified 'to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame’.

I believe Mt 12:31 is in the same vein as 'impossible to renew them again unto repentance':

'Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.'

Also, I see the impending sealing of fate in the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 awaiting Judaizers reflected in Hebrews.

YES, AGREE! 10th chapter being a prime example:

23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:
24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

If you make 'if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth' to mean just 'any ol' sin', then we are all in deep doo doo. No, 'if we sin wilfully' is addressed to those Hebrew Christians experiencing severe persecution from the Jews and is in reference to 'falling away back' to that apostate religion that murdered Christ.

 

[AresMan]

That’s interesting, I’ve never considered that angle before, but the description given of them doesn’t quite jive with the notion that these are “under the auspices of the Old Covenant”, especially since ‘they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame,’ and neither does it jive with the context/description of chapter 10.

I would agree that these ‘fell away BACK' to the “auspices of the Old Covenant”, i.e. apostate Judaism, that wicked generation that killed Christ; and from that angle they genuinely would have crucified 'to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame’.

I believe Mt 12:31 is in the same vein as 'impossible to renew them again unto repentance':

'Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.'



YES, AGREE! 10th chapter being a prime example:

23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:
24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

If you make 'if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth' to mean just 'any ol' sin', then we are all in deep doo doo. No, 'if we sin wilfully' is addressed to those Hebrew Christians experiencing severe persecution from the Jews and is in reference to 'falling away back' to that apostate religion that murdered Christ.

I would agree that these are apostates, but I would not think that these were regenerated by God. To me, the whole focus of the book of Hebrews is to explain the newness and superiority of the New Covenant in Christ and to warn about falling back and trusting the Old Covenant (sacrifices) as if it had any legitimate saving merit. To me, "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" has to do with the fact that if someone thinks he can get God's approval through an Old Covenant sacrifice and be "renewed again unto repentance" after Christ has already performed His perfect sacrifice once for all time, he is essentially expecting a sacrifice to God after Christ's. Since "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," for a first century Jew to entertain the notion of participating in the Levitical system again would be to seal his fate in the destruction of that very temple system with its immanent destruction and wrath of God afterwards.

I believe there are many truths we can glean from Hebrews, but I think the context of many of these warnings are no longer chronologically applicable because the Old Covenant is totally gone (not under transition).

I believe that "the Lord shall judge His people" is a reference to the constitution of Israel under the Old Covenant, and the judgment is with the breaking off of the faithless branches, preserving the remnant, and grafting in of the faithful Gentiles into the newly constituted Olive Tree where "all shall know Me from the least to the greatest of them."

 

[InTheLight]

They do choose to come to Christ willingly because God changed their heart. They want to come to Christ. God doesn't force them to come no more than you are forced to serve Christ now that you have a new regenerated heart. You serve Christ because you want to, not because God forces you.

Yes or no? A person that has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit can choose not to believe in Christ?

 

[InTheLight]

Have you ever considered you are asking Baptists about a Presbyterian document?

There is no difference in the section we are examining, Chapter 10.1

http://www.proginosko.com/docs/wcf_lbcf.html

The Baptist confession (1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith) states:

7. Yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

This is the part that you do not like. Well, not the statement of the confession, but the response of others. Free(ly) here does not mean they have the ability to choose not to come (this is the caveat to the restoration of Adam's pre-fall will). It means they come without encumbrance. There is nothing to impede their coming to Christ. As I said earlier in this thread, "Once the sinner has been regenerated the desire for Christ is overwhelming. The scales have been removed from their eyes (Acts 9:18); their spiritual blindness is gone. Once all they could see was only darkness. In instant they recognize the death, despair, and hopelessness of that darkness and see the Light of the World (John 8:12) in contrast." Having been called by God, there is nothing to stop them from freely coming to Christ.

Finally, somewhat of an answer. I have underlined the portion I think may answer my question.

And there is the key; they are freed to come to Christ, not freed to choose whether or not to come to Christ. That is the right understanding of what the confession is saying. Of course, you are "free" not to accept that.

Oops. You just fudged on your answer. Now we are right back to my original post. If God has determined that they WILL come to Christ, there is no choice involved.

 

[Herald]

There is no difference in the section we are examining, Chapter 10.1

That is not disputed. I mentioned it because many non-confessional Baptists may be put off or intimated by the mention of a Presbyterian document.

Finally, somewhat of an answer. I have underlined the portion I think may answer my question.

Finally, somewhat of an answer, to your liking. No one is under compulsion to provide you with what you consider to be a satisfactory answer.

Oops. You just fudged on your answer. Now we are right back to my original post. If God has determined that they WILL come to Christ, there is no choice involved.

The only fudge I know about is chocolate with walnuts. As I stated in a previous thread, you are using Webster's definition for "fair", or in this case "choice". When it comes to salvation we are not free to choose or not choose we are free to do, but that freedom is not a violation of the regenerate's will because it is something he wants to do. You are having a problem with that concept which is understandable.

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Luke 8:14
The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude 1:
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Winman]

There is no difference in the section we are examining, Chapter 10.1

http://www.proginosko.com/docs/wcf_lbcf.html



Finally, somewhat of an answer. I have underlined the portion I think may answer my question.



Oops. You just fudged on your answer. Now we are right back to my original post. If God has determined that they WILL come to Christ, there is no choice involved.

Watch this video, Jerry Walls does a very good job of explaining the Reformed or Calvinist view of freedom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daomzm3nyIg

Calvinists ALWAYS contradict themselves. In reality they say everything and nothing at the same time.

They will say you are enslaved to sin, and then contradict it and say you are completely free, but only free to sin. It's all DOUBLE-TALK.

You have to cut them slack, they think they are so smart they don't even know they are self-deceived.

 

[canadyjd]

You are asking--Does God have the power to do whatever God desires? Obviously, yes.

That is not what I asked.

Does God have the power to influence a person...."enlighten" or "enable" or "draw" (whatever definition you want) in such a way that they will do whatever God desires them to do?

Let's take it that you agree that Holy Spirit has unlimited ability to influence a person, just so we can move the discussion along.

The next question I want to ask is this.... Does Holy Spirit use the exact same amount of influence on each and every person when He "enlightens" or "enables" or "draws"?

 

[Rippon]

In the following is a quote from D.A.Carson in his book :Divine Sovereignty And Human Responsibility :Biblical Perspectives In Tension.

"It is surprising how often the reference to Isa.54:13 (or perhaps Jer.31:34) in John 6:45 is taken to meanall men without exception will be taught by God,and therefore that the 'drawing' in the previous verse must also be extended to everyone. But 6:45 is adduced to explain someting of the nature of the 'drawing' in 6:44. The 'all' dies not mean 'all without exception' but 'all the people of God' (cf.11:520,all those given to the Son (6:37,39), drawn by the Father (6:44,65). This is special 'teaching' which all believers, but only believers,enjoy (cf. 1 John 2:27). Outward evidence,like signs and testimonies,is not enough. No one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him, as the prophets themselves said: there must be 'teaching' from God. Everyone thus taught must be identified with everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him:all of these come to Jesus." (p.186)

 

[psalms109:31]

John 6:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[ Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

It is so easy to quote one verse and use it to plug in our own elect, but Jesus in the same chapter tells us who the Father will draw, those who will come. It is not to those who just hear or listen but those who listen and learn.

We following the crowd does not mean we are drawn by the Father.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, all will not come only those who come to the knowledge of the truth.

When Jesus is high and lifted up, he will draw all men to Himself. Will all come no only those who see Jesus high and lifted up.

God loved the world that He sent His Son, does that mean all will come no only whosoever believes. Universalism isn't taught in those verses it is an excuse not to believe them.

It all has to do with the message, and we are carrying our own message.

Jeremiah 23:
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.