Calvinists Please Explain Something for Me...

[Winman]

The verse means it was not required under the law. They could offer voluntarily. It is not addressing the issue of the false idea of free will which does not exist.

What a laugh, if they brought it voluntarily, that is free will.

It was real worship, God himself said he would accept it as an atonement for them. Do you believe man could fool God with false worship?

"Any man of you" among the Jews could give this voluntary offering.

 

[InTheLight]

First, congrats on the weight loss.

Many times, if not most of the time, we have competing desires. You had them here. You wanted to eat the hi calorie food, but you also wanted to be healthy. Which one did you choose? You choose your health. Your desire for you health outweighed your desire for your food. Did you desire the food? Of course you did, but you had a greater desire to be healthy.

You wanted to be healthy more than you wanted that food. That desire outweighed your other desire. That's why you choose that. No one made you choose you. you choose the healthy choices because you wanted to. That was also your desire and it was more than the other.

It was in my nature to want to eat sweets and fatty foods, avoid good foods and regular exercise. This was basically a path to destruction. Along comes an authority that tells me I'm headed for disaster unless I change my ways. In my heart, the doctor convinced me of the truth and I have a change of mind regarding the direction my diet is taking me.

Let's apply that to spiritual matters.

It was in my nature to want to sin, avoid God, and to not read the Bible regularly. This is a path to spiritual destruction. Along comes an authority, the Gospel via Bible and preaching, that tells me I'm headed for an eternal disaster unless I change my ways. In my heart the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin and I repent (have a change of mind) regarding the direction my sinful ways are taking me.

Now, did the doctor regenerate my brain so that I could accept the truth that unhealthy eating will lead to a disaster? Or was I enlightened and enabled by his historical statistics and facts to change my mindset about food and make the right choices?

Same thing with the Holy Spirit. He enlightens and enables us to be able to repent.

 

[InTheLight]

First of all, Article X didn't use the phrase "free will", it says "they may come most freely."

A distinction without a difference, IMO.

No. Regeneration doesn't put a person in a "neutral" position with respect to making a decision about Christ... regeneration allows a person to see and understand the truth of their own sinfulness and their alienation from God, and see and understand the truth that Christ died for their sins and that coming to Christ in faith will heal that sinfulness and alienation. No person so worked upon by Holy Spirit will reject the offer of salvation.

Then that person is not "coming freely". That's the whole point of my OP. Why does the Westminster Confession say that [paraphrasing] God will DETERMINE.... that people may come freely?" It's a contradiction.

Whether you acknowledge the work of Holy Spirit in regeneration or simply agree that Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, the truth is that God must intervene in a person's life for salvation to occur.

Yep, I agree.

 

[DrJamesAch]

What?? I thought the King James and the Modern Versions all said the same thing? What is going on here? Are you telling me the version you read says something completely different from the King James?

Who'd of thunk?

Here's what various versions say;

KJV
If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
© Info

NKJV
'If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.
© Info

NLT
"If the animal you present as a burnt offering is from the herd, it must be a male with no defects. Bring it to the entrance of the Tabernacle so you* may be accepted by the LORD.
Footnote:
* Or it.
© Info

NIV
“ ‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, you are to offer a male without defect. You must present it at the entrance to the tent of meeting so that it will be acceptable to the LORD.
© Info

ESV
"If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.
© Info

RVR
Si su ofrenda fuere holocausto vacuno, macho sin defecto lo ofrecerá; de su voluntad lo ofrecerá a la puerta del tabernáculo de reunión delante de Jehová.
© Info

NASB
'If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer it, a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.
© Info

RSV
"If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it at the door of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD;
© Info

ASV
If his oblation be a burnt-offering of the herd, he shall offer it a male without blemish: he shall offer it at the door of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before Jehovah.
© Info

YLT
`If his offering [is] a burnt-offering out of the herd -- a male, a perfect one, he doth bring near, unto the opening of the tent of meeting he doth bring it near, at his pleasure, before Jehovah;
© Info

DBY
If his offering be a burnt-offering of the herd, he shall present it a male without blemish: at the entrance of the tent of meeting shall he present it, for his acceptance before Jehovah.
© Info

WEB
If his offering shall [be] a burnt-sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
© Info

HNV
"'If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall offer it at the door of the Tent of Meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.


Wow, I am shocked, many of the Modern Versions do not say the same thing as the King James Bible.

NOT!

Not only is the phrase "ratson" in the majority of manuscripts THEY use, the MV's don't even translate any alternate renderings, they just remove it altogether.

 

[AresMan]

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

I believe the answer is clear, yes, the regenerate can reject Christ.

I take this passage in the context of someone who was "enlightened" religiously under the auspices of the Old Covenant (that foreshadowed the new Covenant) and wants to be "renewed to repentance" under such terms while rejecting the mediator of the New Covenant. Since the Old Covenant was passing away, to attempt to be restored under the legalism of the Old while rejecting the New would be impossible.

Also, I see the impending sealing of fate in the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 awaiting Judaizers reflected in Hebrews.

 

[canadyjd]

Not only is the phrase "ratson" in the majority of manuscripts THEY use, the MV's don't even translate any alternate renderings, they just remove it altogether.

What does the Hebrew word "ratson" mean?

 

[Amy.G]

Not only is the phrase "ratson" in the majority of manuscripts THEY use, the MV's don't even translate any alternate renderings, they just remove it altogether.

Darby
Leviticus 1:3 If his offering be a burnt-offering of the herd, he shall present it a male without blemish: at the entrance of the tent of meeting shall he present it, for his acceptance before Jehovah.

Tynedale
Leviticus 1:3 Yf he brynge a burntoffrynge of the oxen he shall offre a male without blimesh, and shal brynge him to the dore of the tabernacle of witnesse, that he maye be accepted before the Lorde.

Wycliffe
Leviticus 1:3 and of the droue of oxun, he schal offre a male beeste without wem at the dore of the tabernacle of witnessyng, to make the Lord plesid to hym.


Are these MV's??

 

[preacher4truth]

Darby
Leviticus 1:3 If his offering be a burnt-offering of the herd, he shall present it a male without blemish: at the entrance of the tent of meeting shall he present it, for his acceptance before Jehovah.

Tynedale
Leviticus 1:3 Yf he brynge a burntoffrynge of the oxen he shall offre a male without blimesh, and shal brynge him to the dore of the tabernacle of witnesse, that he maye be accepted before the Lorde.

Wycliffe
Leviticus 1:3 and of the droue of oxun, he schal offre a male beeste without wem at the dore of the tabernacle of witnessyng, to make the Lord plesid to hym.


Are these MV's??

Tennessee Version:

Bring dat dare boyeee oxen over he uh to dat back door over dare yonder by dat dare tent and clean him up sos he be sceptable nomesain?

 

[jbh28]

It was in my nature to want to eat sweets and fatty foods, avoid good foods and regular exercise. This was basically a path to destruction. Along comes an authority that tells me I'm headed for disaster unless I change my ways. In my heart, the doctor convinced me of the truth and I have a change of mind regarding the direction my diet is taking me.

Let's apply that to spiritual matters.

It was in my nature to want to sin, avoid God, and to not read the Bible regularly. This is a path to spiritual destruction. Along comes an authority, the Gospel via Bible and preaching, that tells me I'm headed for an eternal disaster unless I change my ways. In my heart the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin and I repent (have a change of mind) regarding the direction my sinful ways are taking me.

Now, did the doctor regenerate my brain so that I could accept the truth that unhealthy eating will lead to a disaster? Or was I enlightened and enabled by his historical statistics and facts to change my mindset about food and make the right choices?

Same thing with the Holy Spirit. He enlightens and enables us to be able to repent.

There is an enormous difference between you being told about your health and your spiritual darkens that was in your old heart. . Because the doctor can show you that you need to eat right in no way proves that you don't need a regenerated heart to believe.

We will always choose what we want the most. Before one is saved he has a stony heart that the things of God of foolishness, after regeneration, we have a heart of flesh and want nothing else but to believe and love the Lord Jesus Christ. We freely come to Christ because our "wanter" has been fixed. Our heart has been changed. We come because we want to come to Christ.

 

[Winman]

There is an enormous difference between you being told about your health and your spiritual darkens that was in your old heart. . Because the doctor can show you that you need to eat right in no way proves that you don't need a regenerated heart to believe.

We will always choose what we want the most. Before one is saved he has a stony heart that the things of God of foolishness, after regeneration, we have a heart of flesh and want nothing else but to believe and love the Lord Jesus Christ. We freely come to Christ because our "wanter" has been fixed. Our heart has been changed. We come because we want to come to Christ.

Nonsense, the Philipian jailer refutes this, he had a sincere desire to be saved, but he could not possibly be regenerated, because he had not yet believed. He did not even know he had to believe, and he did not know the gospel. Obviously he was convicted of his sins, because he asked how he could be "saved" which shows he understood he was lost.

This absolutely refutes Total Inability as Calvinism understands it. He could not be convicted, he could not understand he was lost, and he could have no desire to be saved until he was regenerated in your system.

 

[canadyjd]

....Now, did the doctor regenerate my brain so that I could accept the truth that unhealthy eating will lead to a disaster? Or was I enlightened and enabled by his historical statistics and facts to change my mindset about food and make the right choices?

Same thing with the Holy Spirit. He enlightens and enables us to be able to repent.

Maybe I should visit your doctor so that he can convince me to change my eating habits.:smilewinkgrin:

However, I don't think you or I would limit God, Holy Spirit, to possessing the "same" ability as a doctor, no matter how good he may be.

You acknowledge Holy Spirit must intervene. Let's explore a little further. I am certain you believe Holy Spirit is not limited in power, so....

Do you believe God Holy Spirit has the power to "enlighten" and "enable" (use whatever term you like for the intervention) without any limits. I'm not asking if you think He will, I am asking if you believe He has the power to influence someone to do whatever He (God) desires?

The answer has to be "yes". God, who made the universe and can make rocks cry out to His glory most certainly has the power to cause us to do whatever He desires. Do you agree that God has that power?

 

[InTheLight]

Do you believe God Holy Spirit has the power to "enlighten" and "enable" (use whatever term you like for the intervention) without any limits. I'm not asking if you think He will, I am asking if you believe He has the power to influence someone to do whatever He (God) desires?

The answer has to be "yes". God, who made the universe and can make rocks cry out to His glory most certainly has the power to cause us to do whatever He desires. Do you agree that God has that power?

Suppose I agree with you. What does it have to do with my OP, which was: How can the Westminster Confession say that those that God has determined to be elected may freely come to Christ?

 

[Herald]

Suppose I agree with you. What does it have to do with my OP, which was: How can the Westminster Confession say that those that God has determined to be elected may freely come to Christ?

You have been given the answer, you just do not like it.

 

[InTheLight]

There is an enormous difference between you being told about your health and your spiritual darkens that was in your old heart. . Because the doctor can show you that you need to eat right in no way proves that you don't need a regenerated heart to believe.

I understand that. I was using the doctor example as an illustration.

We will always choose what we want the most.

No we won't.

Before one is saved he has a stony heart that the things of God of foolishness, after regeneration, we have a heart of flesh and want nothing else but to believe and love the Lord Jesus Christ. We freely come to Christ because our "wanter" has been fixed. Our heart has been changed. We come because we want to come to Christ.

No, according to the theology of Calvinism people come to Christ because God has determined that they will do so. They have NO choice. An honest reading of the Westminster Confession tells us this.

 

[InTheLight]

You have been given the answer, you just do not like it.

Yes I've been given "answers" that are very Clintonesque--it depends on the definition of free will. Apparently if God forces you to make a choice that is free will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, according to the theology of Calvinism people come to Christ because God has determined that they will do so. They have NO choice. An honest reading of the Westminster Confession tells us this.

If that is so, that we have no choice & its all in Gods hands (not ours) then Thank The Good Lord for that gift of Eternal Life....because if it were up to us then we would all be resigned to hell. :godisgood:

 

[Herald]

Yes I've been given "answers" that are very Clintonesque--it depends on the definition of free will. Apparently if God forces you to make a choice that is free will.

It depends on how you define free will. Did Adam, in his pre-fallen state, possess a completely self-autonomous free will? If so, was that free will matched with the power to act upon it? Depending on how you answer those questions you can charge God with being cruel by not equipping man with the same power that He possesses; therefore man cannot fully employ his free will.

The fact is that free will is not completely unencumbered nor self-autonomous. Man's will is held captive to his nature. In addition it is a finite will, seeing as man is a finite creature. Man's will was never meant to be free so that he can choose to do whatever he wants. Do you want to know what man's will was created to do?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Adam was supposed to serve God like Jeremiah described. For reasons that only God knows, He gave Adam the ability to choose to sin and choose not to sin. In the eternal state the redeemed will lose the ability to sin. What shall we say about that? Has man lost his free will? I suggest (and it is not unique to me) that man's will is perfected in glory. Man was created to freely serve God. By free I mean that man yearns for nothing else. He was created for that very purpose. The problem we have in this discussion is using the Webster's definition of "free" and transposing it upon man's disposition towards God (or not).

 

[canadyjd]

Suppose I agree with you. What does it have to do with my OP, which was: How can the Westminster Confession say that those that God has determined to be elected may freely come to Christ?

Let's see where the answer takes us. Do you believe God Holy Spirit has the power to "enlighten" or "enable" a person to do whatever God desires?

 

[InTheLight]

Let's see where the answer takes us. Do you believe God Holy Spirit has the power to "enlighten" or "enable" a person to do whatever God desires?

You are asking--Does God have the power to do whatever God desires? Obviously, yes. Now, why is God causing someone to do something called free will in the Westminster Confession?

 

[InTheLight]

It depends on how you define free will. Did Adam, in his pre-fallen state, possess a completely self-autonomous free will? If so, was that free will matched with the power to act upon it? Depending on how you answer those questions you can charge God with being cruel by not equipping man with the same power that He possesses; therefore man cannot fully employ his free will.

I guess as OP, I'm asking the questions. So why does the Westminster Confession say that God determining our actions is free will?