Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

[zrs6v4]

Sorry for all the questions Webdog but please take time, stay on subject and answer them the best you can.

One last question, if God does not force people to do anything how can we be sure that the bible is inherently the truth?

maybe these questions are bad, but Im trying to talk it out, haha

 

[Grasshopper]

Non sequitur, God's drawing doesn't mean all will heed His drawing. Apparently from Romans 1 all men have been presented with the Truth, meaning all have been drawn. One cannot reject that which is not presented.

So explain the difference between God drawing someone and God calling someone and the text ,if any, you use to make that distinction.

 

[J.D.]

I have a question about this order of salvation, J.D.
First, if one must be regenerated before one can believe and thus be saved, will it not follow that the salvation of sinners and of God's elect people began only when there was something and someone to believe in and someone to preach what and whom to believe in ?

If that is logical, then doesn't it follow that Christ's work of eternal salvation began only after the cross ? Or when there was a gospel to preach and gospel preachers to preach the gospel ?

Whether or not your answer is yes or no, my question is, how far and wide, geographically and chronologically, then, will such a salvation following your ordo salutis, go or reach ?

Thank you for any forthcoming reply.

Brother Pinoy: I believe the Gospel was preached first in Genesis 3:15, and was further expounded in various ways throughout history. As far as the length and breadth of the Gospel's publication, I don't think it was then or is presently as limited as we often assume, but it is ultimately God's prerogative as to where it goes and where it doesn't go.

Assuming that your questions arise from your doctrine of salvation without means, I will add this: While it can be proven that God sometimes works without and even against means, I'm not convinced that God ever works salvifically without means. I don't think God would save someone without the Gospel given that he proclaimed the Gospel as "the power of God unto salvation".

I think the PB practice of splitting salvation into eternal and temporal aspects is a hermeneutic interpretation necessitated by the defense of salvation without means.

In spite of my differences with my BP brethren, I still love them and appreciate much of what they stand for.

 

[HankD]

So the Father does draw all men. Then you must be a universalists:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Is Jesus a universalist?
​

 

[HankD]

The dreaded double post!

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

HankD (can you guess I'm a former Catholic?)

 

[Grasshopper]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

Is Jesus a universalist?​

1. I will ask you the same question, what is the difference between God "drawing" someone and God "calling" someone?

2. Does the "if" make it conditional?

 

[HankD]

1. I will ask you the same question, what is the difference between God "drawing" someone and God "calling" someone?

2. Does the "if" make it conditional?

To the first question concerning the difference bewteen "drawing" and "calling": This question does not address the real issue, the word used was "draw" not "call" in both the questions concerning universalism.

If we are going to obliquely accuse soemone of being a "universalist" because of the verse alluded to by the statement

So the Father does draw all men. Then you must be a universalists:

Then that criteria begs the question "Is Jesus a universalist" because He is the one who said in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The second question about the condition, yes when He made the statement it was conditioned upon His crucifixion.

It has been accomplished and therefore this passage (John 12:32) of Scripture is being fulfilled as we speak.


HankD

 

[Allan]

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So, are you saying that everone whom God calls will obey?


And if so, IF I were to show you verses that specifically state that God called some and they did not obey and or that they could potentially NOT obey - would you change your stance?

 

[zrs6v4]

So, are you saying that everone whom God calls will obey?


And if so, IF I were to show you verses that specifically state that God called some and they did not obey and or that they could potentially NOT obey - would you change your stance?

The truth is neither would change the stance, you seem pretty firm as well. I think everyone is pretty firm on what they think the bible says but Id like to ask if youd please give the verses specifically stating against God calling elect to life who didnt obey the call?

 

[Allan]

The truth is neither would change the stance, you seem pretty firm as well. I think everyone is pretty firm on what they think the bible says but Id like to ask if youd please give the verses specifically stating against God calling elect to life who didnt obey the call?

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Paul reiterates the passage of Prov 1 in Rom 10, most specifically verse 24 of Proverbs in Romans 10:21:

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Any time God is calling men from darkness to light, from error to truth, or righteousness from unrighteousness you have God drawing men. His drawing and calling are the same thing. Even the writer of Hebrews 3 (I personally believe it was Paul) :

Hbr 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hbr 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Hbr 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
Hbr 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Also in Rom 10:8 (which is a direct quote of Duet 30:10-14-20) Paul is again illistrating the choice set before them by God Himself. In Duet God through Moses is declaring to them a choice and is pleading to 'choose life'. Paul also uses this when speaking in Rom 10 to establish his position - that being God is calling/drawing them unto Himself - believe and be saved, do not reject Him as Israel did whom He loved and called.

And then you have the passage of 2 Thes 2:10-12 which speaks of the followers of the Anti-Christ who were given the truth that they might be saved (vs 10) but chose not to receive it and for THAT reason God gave them over to their sin

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Is God really damning them because He (God) would not allow them to believe
Or
Because He called/drew them to the truth to them (no one can know any spiritual truth unless God reveal it) that could save them and yet they rejected it?

This is seen also in Rom 1.

 

[Allan]

Actaully, I think I am in the wrong here. Though I do not agree with my Calvinist brethren on 'some' things, you came here specifically asking Calvinists for more info and I answered a post in a way that is not in line with your OP nor does it add to that which you are seeking for more info on.

My appologies. Search out what the Lord will have you to know. Just do not let your studies be one sided. Study all the points and let God lead you to truth. He leads some toward Calvinism and others away from it. And yes, we each have our personal testimonies of "through honest and prayerful study God led me this way". Be confident in your own mind that which the Lord has shown you but also do not be so unmovable that no matter what truth is presented you will not budge.

 

[Tom Butler]

Search out what the Lord will have you to know. Just do not let your studies be one sided. Study all the points and let God lead you to truth. He leads some toward Calvinism and others away from it. And yes, we each have our personal testimonies of "through honest and prayerful study God led me this way". Be confident in your own mind that which the Lord has shown you but also do not be so unmovable that no matter what truth is presented you will not budge.

Although Allan and I see this issue differently, I concur in his advice. Be careful to let the scriptures speak for themselves. Be careful not to draw a conclusion, then go looking for scriptures that support it, or filter those scriptures through your conclusion.

If you live long enough you will change your view on some subjects. It may be traumatic to come to the conclusion that what you thought was right no longer can stand the test. On some issues, I consider them settled. On others, the best I can say is, this is where I am today. I wasn't there yesterday and I may not be there tomorrow.

 

[Jerome]

"[The woman in Luke 13] was made straight we are told, and that at once. Now, what I want you to notice is this, that she must have lifted herself up—that was her own act and deed. No pressure or force was put upon her, she lifted up herself; and yet she was "made straight." She was passive in so much as a miracle was wrought upon her, but she was active too, and, being enabled, she lifted up herself. What a wonderful meeting there is here of the active and the passive in the salvation of men. The Arminian says to the sinner, "Now, sinner, you are a responsible being; you must do this and that." The Calvinist says, "Truly, sinner, you are responsible enough, but you are also unable to do anything of yourself. God must work in you both to will and to do." What shall we do with these two teachers? They fell to fighting, a hundred years ago, most frightfully. We will not let them fight now, but what shall we do with them? We will let both speak, and believe what is true in both their testimonies." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Jerome]

""To as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to as many as believed on his name"; but the reception must come first. And you cannot have this witness apart from faith, because the Holy Ghost never sets his seal to a blank sheet of paper. There must first of all be the writing of faith upon the heart, and then the Spirit of God puts his attesting seal thereto. Would you have God the Holy Ghost witness to a falsehood? And yet it would be witnessing to a lie if he gave an inner witness of salvation to a man who is still an unbeliever, and who consequently is condemned already. If you refuse to believe God's word how can you think that the Spirit will bear witness of anything in you except it be to your condemnation? There must be faith going before, and then the witness will follow after." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[zrs6v4]

Actaully, I think I am in the wrong here. Though I do not agree with my Calvinist brethren on 'some' things, you came here specifically asking Calvinists for more info and I answered a post in a way that is not in line with your OP nor does it add to that which you are seeking for more info on.

My appologies. Search out what the Lord will have you to know. Just do not let your studies be one sided. Study all the points and let God lead you to truth. He leads some toward Calvinism and others away from it. And yes, we each have our personal testimonies of "through honest and prayerful study God led me this way". Be confident in your own mind that which the Lord has shown you but also do not be so unmovable that no matter what truth is presented you will not budge.

No, hey, you are completely fine, I think its good to be able to talk about our sides. I am going to the Word for your answers and I really am trying to be as open minded as possible, though its hard for us, we can all vouge. I am not trying to put a title to what I think the bible says or take the sides of any man, but rather as you said search the Word. I am in fact going to reply to your post because I find it very interesting. thanks- Zach

 

[webdog]

Is God completely sovereign? Youd probably say yes, but doesnt mess with free will of man. why not?

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I am not as well spoken as some here, though. Bear with me

I'll give you an analogy. My son wants to see a movie. I give him a choice of a few to see. Since he's not 16, I drive him and his friend to the theater, give him money for tickets and popcorn, and pick him up when it is over. I was completely sovereign over his whole moviegoing experience, while he freely chose which movie he wanted to see (remember, a choice involves 2 or more options...not one like calvinism teaches).

If He can turn hearts then why not turn everyones to Him completely to be saved (which is an act of messing with free will, right)?

Obedience is not forced. He has determined those who come to Him in faith are saved.

What about those in other countries who do not hear the gospel? I's this our fault for not answering to God when He told us to go to them?

You start with a false presuppostion that all have not had the Truth presented at some point. What does Romans 1 say? Romans 3?

What do you do with Romans 9:11?

First thing I do is put it into the proper context. Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with God's plan for Israel, not personal salvation as is often taught. Knowing this context, the text in qustion is dealing with God's sovereign choice of one nation over another. Remember, Genesis 25:23 states "there are two nations in your womb"

What if God does love everyone greatly and for his plan they must not be born again. Is he still JUST in letting them die in their sins? or do they deserve a chance?

Fist, Romans 1 states there are two kinds of people...those who have accepted the Truth, and those who rejected the Truth. That is more than enough "chance". There is no group in between without ever having the chance.
Second, God's love and God's justice are not interwoven. God is also righteous. Does He love all men? Yes, Scripture states just that. It's not God's plan that they must not be born again, as 2 Peter 3:9 attests to. Is He just for allowing them to die in their sins? Absolutely, because they rejected Him.

 

[zrs6v4]

Paul reiterates the passage of Prov 1 in Rom 10, most specifically verse 24 of Proverbs in Romans 10:21:

Any time God is calling men from darkness to light, from error to truth, or righteousness from unrighteousness you have God drawing men. His drawing and calling are the same thing. Even the writer of Hebrews 3 (I personally believe it was Paul) :

Also in Rom 10:8 (which is a direct quote of Duet 30:10-14-20) Paul is again illistrating the choice set before them by God Himself. In Duet God through Moses is declaring to them a choice and is pleading to 'choose life'. Paul also uses this when speaking in Rom 10 to establish his position - that being God is calling/drawing them unto Himself - believe and be saved, do not reject Him as Israel did whom He loved and called.

And then you have the passage of 2 Thes 2:10-12 which speaks of the followers of the Anti-Christ who were given the truth that they might be saved (vs 10) but chose not to receive it and for THAT reason God gave them over to their sin


Is God really damning them because He (God) would not allow them to believe
Or
Because He called/drew them to the truth to them (no one can know any spiritual truth unless God reveal it) that could save them and yet they rejected it?

This is seen also in Rom 1.

in all peace and fellowship for understanding-

Proverbs 1:23 and 24 undoubtably says He reveals sin and if we turn he reveals and gives the sipirt. and in v24 He says He has called and we refused to listen and stretched out his hand and no one has heeded.

Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law, ineeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I think the remaining question for us to answer is can we turn to im without Him?

Proverbs 1:33- but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster. who listens in the flesh?

Romans 9 talks about Gods sovereign choice and the good ol predestined verse (11).

This only begs us to cry out with no hope and helplessly when we realize we are sinking and not slowing down in our sin. Is our choice our cry out for help or do we stop sinking on our own and start swimming upward? It seems everytime someone comes to this point of understanding then God always picks them back up, because they have truly become broken and sick (humble). But how can we make this happen to be saved? how can i become humble enough to gain Gods approval? How do I become the rebelling child who really understand the need of God on my own? I can't unless God chooses to have mercy on my foolishness.

Romans 10:8 the word is always there and God is right in front of everyones face. but they cant see b/c they are blind

v10 did pharaoh in exodus change his heart or did God? dont answer that, haha
v17 faith comes from the word of God
v21 Isaiah- who are the disobedient? Israel in captivity or us? arent we all, why didnt we listen?
Deut 30, again can we obey in the flesh?

I think "free will" is rightly saying that we all are getting worse and worse as we live without heeding to God. Jesus is the Gospel so we preach it and that the good news is that we have a savior. Still people never never see it while others sitting right next to them see it, why? Can we see how bad our sin without God revealing it and does He reveal it to everyone? Can we resist when we see it, or can we mess it up when God lays it in front of us? My understanding at this point is that God chooses people by His "Will" and while He longs for all to be saved the "Will" must be and has to be done perfectly. This means people do die in their sins as they do deserve justly. I cant stand to think of that because I want everyone to be saved, but it just doesnt happen. Could God save everyone, Yes Im sure He could, but does He? No. Why? must have a greater will to be done. Do I accept it? Yes. Do I have a choice? No. So why the heck did God choose me over the millions of others to recieve such a great gift in which I cant understand how undeserving I am? Thats why I just fall on my face and worship freely....

 

[zrs6v4]

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I am not as well spoken as some here, though. Bear with me

I'll give you an analogy. My son wants to see a movie. I give him a choice of a few to see. Since he's not 16, I drive him and his friend to the theater, give him money for tickets and popcorn, and pick him up when it is over. I was completely sovereign over his whole moviegoing experience, while he freely chose which movie he wanted to see (remember, a choice involves 2 or more options...not one like calvinism teaches).
Obedience is not forced. He has determined those who come to Him in faith are saved.
You start with a false presuppostion that all have not had the Truth presented at some point. What does Romans 1 say? Romans 3?
First thing I do is put it into the proper context. Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with God's plan for Israel, not personal salvation as is often taught. Knowing this context, the text in qustion is dealing with God's sovereign choice of one nation over another. Remember, Genesis 25:23 states "there are two nations in your womb"
Fist, Romans 1 states there are two kinds of people...those who have accepted the Truth, and those who rejected the Truth. That is more than enough "chance". There is no group in between without ever having the chance.
Second, God's love and God's justice are not interwoven. God is also righteous. Does He love all men? Yes, Scripture states just that. It's not God's plan that they must not be born again, as 2 Peter 3:9 attests to. Is He just for allowing them to die in their sins? Absolutely, because they rejected Him.

Im with you on speaking, haha, Im going with it...

So what if your child ran in the highway or was heading to a life threatening spot?
would you overrule His will?
I think your child has a will and you also have a will, and when the will collides, whose will wins? does the child have a choice then?

where does faith come from? the Word of God which couldnt have happened by accident.

I got nothin on the question of those dieing without the gospel in other countries. I cannot say God cannot get to them. Im not familier with the verses, can you please show them to me?

God is sovereign over the ones He chooses to have mercy on and those he doesnt. God loves greatly, but He also is a righteous judge who doesnt have to give mercy if He doesnt want to. God's will doesnt include personal salvation? please explain. I think we can relate Gods plan greatly with being for salvation of the world through Israel Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-David-Jesus. What if say David just so happened to not choose God by the way? it would have messed Gods providence all up, unless God had David in His book written before time began. Unless David was predestined to be exactly who he was.

When you keep quoting second Peter 3:9 I think you are making a mistake. It says God does not WISH that any should perish but that all would reach repentance. Unfortunetly that isnt the case because Gods PLAN/WILL (not God's WISH) is concrete and many will die in their sins.

 

[MB]

Hi Zrs6v4;
This is how Salvation was for me;
Choice of whether to be saved or not isn't one that where we just choose to be saved and then go out and get saved. We are first drawn or called. We then hear about Christ, learning about Him first. Being drawn isn't a choice but listening may be. Many are called but few are chosen. We do not choose Christ we are chosen for Christ.
Salvations depends on you being convinced of the truth of Jesus Christ there by creating faith inside of us. Then comes conviction this happens by learning we are sinners and we feel the conviction of it. Conviction tears at us so much that it literally drives us to our knees in submission to the righteousness of God.
There is nothing right about us with out God and when we see that is true is when conviction takes over.
Salvation is never forced though explanations may seem that way. All through the process of Salvation our only choice is to rebel against it. Rebellion is the choice we can make to stop the process although with out rebellion there is no resistance. With out resistance we accept Christ as our Savior. Salvation is all of God. Man's only part in his own Salvation is our submission to the righteousness of God. Submission is giving up the rebellion our fight against Him.
MB

 

[Grasshopper]

To the first question concerning the difference bewteen "drawing" and "calling": This question does not address the real issue, the word used was "draw" not "call" in both the questions concerning universalism.

But according to your fellow non-cal they are the same therefore it should matter not:

Allan
"Any time God is calling men from darkness to light, from error to truth, or righteousness from unrighteousness you have God drawing men. His drawing and calling are the same thing."

If we are going to obliquely accuse soemone of being a "universalist" because of the verse alluded to by the statement

So if we plug in "draw/drew" where "called" is in Romans 8, since I have now learned they are the same thing we get this:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also drew: and whom he drew, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those he drew were predestined and were justified and glorified. Therefore when you say this:

"Then that criteria begs the question "Is Jesus a universalist" because He is the one who said in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The second question about the condition, yes when He made the statement it was conditioned upon His crucifixion.

It has been accomplished and therefore this passage (John 12:32) of Scripture is being fulfilled as we speak."


you are saying God draws all men and Romans says all (not some or many)that are drawn/called are justified and sanctified. Universalism.:thumbs:


John Gill

Pro 1:24 - Because I have called, and ye refused,.... This is to be understood not of the internal call of Wisdom, or Christ, which is by the special grace of his Spirit; is according to an eternal purpose, the fruit of everlasting love, peculiar to God's elect, and by a divine power; and is also a call to special blessings of grace, and to eternal glory; and which is always effectual, unchangeable, and irreversible, and can never be refused, rejected, and resisted, so as to become void and of no effect: but of the external call by the word, to the natural duties of religion, and to an attendance on the means of grace; which may be where no election goes before, no sanctification attends, nor salvation follows, Mat_20:16; and this may be refused and rejected, as it often is; as when men, notwithstanding that call, do not attend on the ministry of the word, or, if they do, it is in a negligent careless way; or, they show an aversion to it, despise, contradict, and blaspheme it, as the Jews did, who were the persons first called to hear it; see Mat_22:2;