Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

[Allan]

It seems what John is saying is that in order to believe you must be first born of God.


1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I don't believe he is saying: when you believe you are born of God, but instead: when you are born of God you believe. Belief is a gift given when one is born of God.

Well you can 'believe' what you like but that does make it any more true. HOWEVER, I will state that this particular verse is very debated and debatable.

It wasn't until God opened Lydia's heart that she was able to believe:

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

So does God open the heart of all men?

I agree that it wasn't till the Lord opened Lydias heart that she was 'able' to believe. Does God do this for all men everywhere? Yes. Will and do all men believe? No.

 

[Allan]

The scripture clearly tells us to trust Christ and thats exactly what we are to plead with people to do. We obviously can take it further again and say can you trust Christ.

Now hold up a moment please. Let us look at this again.
We have God telling us to choose between two things (Life and death) and we have Him telling us to proclaim this same message, but then you leave the express declation of God "to choose, to believe, to ..." (you get the picture) and say "we can take it further..and say you 'can' trust Christ". My brother, it is not taking it furthur but simply believing God at what He says. Not only is the 'can' (at the moving of God in us) implied but expressly given. One can only take it beyond the context (or go furthur) if one assumes we can not when God tells us to.

It seems to me what he was trying to get across is that grace came first then faith, even though faith was given first it was still by grace.

I agree that grace came first and then faith. Umm.. in reference to that last part.. Faith is not given first or even given. What I mean by not given is that God implants a special type of faith inside us and thus we never had it nor could we come to it even with God's help. I do however believe that faith can be seen as a gift in that no man would have it if it were not for the working of God toward him. Thus it is a gift in that sense. - only helping you understand my view on this topic

He is saying that his trusting and believing was still part of the gift which makes God 100% the one who saved you and not even your trust was from you (belief was part of God's grace given in other words).

But regardless of if God gave it to you, it was you who still had to believe that you might be saved. Thus you in some degree participate in your salvation. Otherwise God would save you without you needing to believe. Therefore according to Reformed view that our salvation (meaning not only the act but the process) is 100% God and nothing of or from man is wrong biblically. No question that the act of salvation is 100% God.

I cant argue with it seeming to be to all men and women. I just cant because that is our approach due to not being God, anyone CAN be saved in our eyes.

But you just did argue with it. :tongue3:
If it says it then believe it or at the very least study it out for yourself to find out more.
How can it be 'seeming' unless that is what it is saying and that you differing with it because you have a different position on it.
Do not just read one side of the view. Look first look at the context and words. Then look at other places in scripture where it is much the same or the same certain words used and get a feel for it yourself. THEN look at commentators from both sides and see if what they say first lines up with the context and the scriptures as whole. Sometimes we are to live with those tentions in scripture and sometimes the tension is really in us.

Now on the flip side we have these unavoidable verses(which is why you probably respect, you dont have to comment on these back, just pick one if you want)

Acts 13:48/Acts 16:14/2 Timothy 2:19+25-26/Ezekiel 36:27/Phil 2:12-13/John:6:37-39/John 6:44-45/John 6:63-67+70/John 7:37-38/John 8:47/John 10:26-27**/
I stopped at chapter 10 in John, some verses or more clear than others I think.

Now with respect to your verses I will give 'briefly' my thoughts on them and 'you' can choose what you wish to speak to.

There is no problem with Acts 13:48.

Acts 16:14 is no issue either since the Lord must open our hearts in order to accept or reject.

2 Tim 2:19 is not a problem either.
HOWEVER, 2 Tim 2:25-26 is not speaking of an unbeliever but a believer who has fallen into sin. The 'giving of repentenance' is also said this way - allowing them to repent. Even as Sons we are still subject to his discipline and that includes death.

Eze 36:27 - Keep in context - this has nothing to do with us in the this present time and for a specific people - Jews.

Phil 2:12-13 - Is speaking of and to believers who are walking in righteousness.

John 6:37-39 - there is no problem here either. All God has given will be saved.

John 6:44-45 - Again no problem unless one makes an assumption. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. This does not negate that God draws all men (as Christ said He would) but that no one can come unless drawn. Remember that Jesus is dealing with Jews here and not only does their sin stand in their way but they are blinded by God due to their rebelliousness. Thus no one can come unless drawn. Notice also in vs 45 that those who come have been both taught and have learned. In order to learn you must accept or recieve what it told you as fact which simply reiterates what Jesus previously stated in verse 40.

John 7:37-38 - there is really no problem here thus I'm not sure why you added it.

John 8:47 - This needs to be kept in context .. Jesus was not saying that unless you are saved you can't hear God but they (knowing who He really was - John 3:2) rejected Him already. Thus they could not understand what Jesus was telling them because they had already reject Him and thus God as well and were not of Him to understand.

John 10 - Again context and is the same as my comment on John 8 and as such Jesus is contrasting the two groups. Believers and unbelievers. They are sheep, just not his sheep and they are not His because they do not beleive.

 

[zrs6v4]

But regardless of if God gave it to you, it was you who still had to believe that you might be saved. Thus you in some degree participate in your salvation. Otherwise God would save you without you needing to believe. Therefore according to Reformed view that our salvation (meaning not only the act but the process) is 100% God and nothing of or from man is wrong biblically. No question that the act of salvation is 100% God.

I just cant understand your view tonight in this respect- How can you say it is 100% God, when you say that you have to "do" this > believe... that would be 99% God and 1% you, so to speak.

But you just did argue with it. :tongue3:
If it says it then believe it or at the very least study it out for yourself to find out more. ..

I meant Im not arguing with scripture, but when the scripture goes deeper in some areas then I can apply my view to the scripture that isnt as deep. For example: if scripture says believe and repent to be saved. and then says God did it before time began, I can conclude that in the first verse I made up that God must have been the cause prior to the whole thing... (if that makes sense) so I cant argue witht he first or the second but the second is greater and deeper so i can apply that to the first..

How can it be 'seeming' unless that is what it is saying and that you differing with it because you have a different position on it...

I am saying from my best knowledge with applied verses to understand the passage in a fashion of systematic theology (for this particular case) I am drawing a big conclusion and not avoiding any scriptures of leaving them out of my view..

Do not just read one side of the view. Look first look at the context and words. Then look at other places in scripture where it is much the same or the same certain words used and get a feel for it yourself. THEN look at commentators from both sides and see if what they say first lines up with the context and the scriptures as whole. Sometimes we are to live with those tentions in scripture and sometimes the tension is really in us..

I think context of scripture means all scripture in this case. So if Paul is talking about a life of a born again person and says in the flesh you are unable, then I knowing what He is talking about can also draw the conclusion that even an unsaved person in the flesh is unable, because the flesh is equal.... I am not saying I understand all context and dont make mistakes, hah, but you get my point. I am not saying read the bible in the same way everytime, but read the context in our time with God (Or however God leads), but in this study we can look at the context of the bible as a whole... Am I not right?

 

[Rippon]

I agree that it wasn't till the Lord opened Lydia's heart that she was 'able' to believe. Does God do this for all men everywhere? Yes. Will and do all men believe? No.

The Lord does not open the hearts of all people everywhere! At which passage of Scripture have you discovered that idea?!He opens the hearts of certain ones -- the elect alone.When the Lord opens hearts they will believe -- there is no possibility of disbelief.

 

[Allan]

I just cant understand your view tonight in this respect- How can you say it is 100% God, when you say that you have to "do" this > believe... that would be 99% God and 1% you, so to speak.

IOW - you wouldn't be saved if it were not for God. He saved you (thus 100%)
God is not obligated to save some because of belief. God chose to save us through faith. Thus He saves us because of His grace.

However, with respect to the percentages above - In the Reformed view there is no real Monergism because regardless of how it plays out. Man must believe in that he might be saved. Man, no matter how it is sliced and diced participates in his salvation. The only way to remove man from the salvation equation is to have God save man without faith - This is actaully Primitive Baptist view.

I meant Im not arguing with scripture

I know.

but when the scripture goes deeper in some areas then I can apply my view to the scripture that isnt as deep. For example: if scripture says believe and repent to be saved. and then says God did it before time began, I can conclude that in the first verse I made up that God must have been the cause prior to the whole thing... (if that makes sense) so I cant argue witht he first or the second but the second is greater and deeper so i can apply that to the first..

To this I do not disagree. I think I misunderstood one part though which appears to read that God saved us before time began? Or did you mean that God purposed to save us before time began.

I can agree with the last part.

I am saying from my best knowledge with applied verses to understand the passage in a fashion of systematic theology (for this particular case) I am drawing a big conclusion and not avoiding any scriptures of leaving them out of my view..

Do not let your systematic theology dictate scriptrue. Scripture dictates our theology. This is important in letting the scripture speak for itself. Other scriptures are important in understanding as well but context is both Key and King in interpretation.

I think context of scripture means all scripture in this case.

No I don't think it doesn't. Context refers to who is speaking, what is said, the time or culture it is being spoke to, and the purpose of it being given. Other scriptures can be used to clarify but not to dicate. Context can branch furthur outward to the book, the particular Testimant and then finally the whole of scripture. However in doing so it does not change from what the original intent of the author was meant when he penned it in conjunction with those surrounding passages.

IOW- the intent and meaning wont change as you entend context to encompass larger portions.

So if Paul is talking about a life of a born again person and says in the flesh you are unable, then I knowing what He is talking about can also draw the conclusion that even an unsaved person in the flesh is unable, because the flesh is equal.... I am not saying I understand all context and dont make mistakes, hah, but you get my point.

Yes, but unable to what? Not to do but to please God through living in obedience. This is why we should deal with what is there and try not to make argument or at worst a doctrine from silence that is not explicitly infered.

Yes, we can make applications through illistrations but we need to be careful not to allow them to much weight since again they are only assuming something not expressly stated.

I am not saying read the bible in the same way everytime, but read the context in our time with God (Or however God leads), but in this study we can look at the context of the bible as a whole... Am I not right?

You can look at the scripture on the whole only after you have examined what is in context before you. What the scriptures state on the whole should not contradict what is in the passages surrounding the verse. But in order to know if you are correct or not regarding the whole you must first look at the writting the verse is in to know what is being said and meant.

To probably best illistrate what I'm saying about context is a sermon from Spurgeon called "Salvation by Knowing the Truth" on 1 Tim 2:3-4.
Here is an excert:

"God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."—1 Timothy 2:3, 4.
MAY GOD THE HOLY GHOST guide our meditations to the best practical result this evening, that sinners may be saved and saints stirred up to diligence. I do not intend to treat my text controversially. It is like the stone which makes the corner of a building, and it looks towards a different side of the gospel from that which is mostly before us. Two sides of the building of truth meet here. In many a village there is a corner where the idle and the quarrelsome gather together; and theology has such corners. It would be very easy indeed to set ourselves in battle array, and during the next half-hour to carry on a very fierce attack against those who differ from us in opinion upon points which could be raised from this text. I do not see that any good would come of it, and, as we have very little time to spare, and life is short, we had better spend it upon something that may better tend to our edification. May the good Spirit preserve us from a contentious spirit, and help us really to profit by his word.
It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

With the above I am only pointing out that some remove context and import another view and then superimpose it upon the text. We are not to do this. Context dictates what is being said and gives meaning to that which is said.

 

[Allan]

The Lord does not open the hearts of all people everywhere! At which passage of Scripture have you discovered that idea?!He opens the hearts of certain ones -- the elect alone.When the Lord opens hearts they will believe -- there is no possibility of disbelief.

Before I answer you, please give scripture that states the Lord only opens the hearts of the elect alone.

:wavey: tootles!

 

[zrs6v4]

"There is no problem with Acts 13:48." As many as were chosen to eternal life, believed... Seems to me that God has called these people to salvation?

Acts 16:14 is no issue either since the Lord must open our hearts in order to accept or reject. So when the Lord gives secrets and revelations to the chosen, you are saying that hes giving them that for a choice of accept or reject? I know your answer is yes, but maybe throw a scripture at me where God opens up a heart and it doesnt do exactly what it is opened to do? In other words a heart that God takes into His own hands and it doesnt do a pleasing thing to God..

2 Tim 2:19 is not a problem either.
"HOWEVER, 2 Tim 2:25-26 is not speaking of an unbeliever but a believer who has fallen into sin. The 'giving of repentenance' is also said this way - allowing them to repent. Even as Sons we are still subject to his discipline and that includes death." this is similar to above, and I agree the context is to believers, but again I dont see an unbeliever believing before regenerate to be able to believe which is going to happen every time they are justified and called to ministry from death to life. a dead man even if revealed God cannot see God, so I cant see how he is given a choice unless brought to life..

Eze 36:27 - "Keep in context - this has nothing to do with us in the this present time and for a specific people - Jews." Yes God is speaking throguh Ezekiel to Israel. This message is also to us. God is greatly stressing I from 36:22-38. God is the one that does it, while we were dead in our tresspasses God resurrected us making us be alive in Christ, so we may vindicate the holiness of His name and bear fruit. Lemme ask you another question, did Jesus heal the blind man before he believed or after?

Phil 2:12-13 - Is speaking of and to believers who are walking in righteousness. Right but we can apply it to the flesh in reverse, it is God who works in us, both to will and work for His good pleasure. I just cant imagine doing a single thing right without God being behind it or else I would say I pleased God without God working in me...

John 6:37-39 - "there is no problem here either. All God has given will be saved." (v40) no one looks on the Son or believes in the flesh aka unsaved, and unbeliever. All that the Father gives will come to Jesus, and those will never leave, again b/c once saved always saved and upheld by God. So we can say everyone who is called/chosen by the Father comes to Jesus for eternal life, and those not chosen will not be called to eternal life... Also go back to verse 35, Jesus is the living bread, whoever comes to Him are saved (chosen by the Father) they will never hunger or thirst (beattitudes) because they have been blessed (not all are blessed). You cannot say that the Father draws them to Himself and then they reject and thirst again (spiritually), because all the father draws/chooses/calls to himself will never thirst, and they will believe. Let me ask you this is God calls (Wills) you to preach can you mess that up and reject the call?

John 6:44-45 - Again no problem unless one makes an assumption. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. This does not negate that God draws all men (as Christ said He would) but that no one can come unless drawn. Remember that Jesus is dealing with Jews here and not only does their sin stand in their way but they are blinded by God due to their rebelliousness. Thus no one can come unless drawn. Notice also in vs 45 that those who come have been both taught and have learned. In order to learn you must accept or recieve what it told you as fact which simply reiterates what Jesus previously stated in v.40."

V47 whoever believes "has eternal life." Yes those who came were taught and learned from God, therefore they had fellowship which was not broken anymore. They were taught because they were healed and able to listen and believe. The flesh is not willing but the spirit is always willing.. So to listen to God in flesh and believe is not the nature, but rather the Spirit of God listens to the Father and whatever He hears He does. The flesh is rebellious. So maybe this is another time to explain to me the picture of God bringing you to Him "for the choice to be of His Will which He foreknew" where you are still in flesh but actually are in a position to believe without the Spirit acting upon your decision at all? and If he foreknew His Will and you are of His Will to come and accept or reject, but yet made a choice, then how is His Will sovereign because you'd be changing it in eternity past by your Will.

John 7:37-38 - there is really no problem here thus I'm not sure why you added it. Simply jesus showing the picture of the saved man who is believing. But yea it isnt the best verse here to get into, hah

John 8:47 - "This needs to be kept in context .. Jesus was not saying that unless you are saved you can't hear God but they (knowing who He really was - John 3:2) rejected Him already. Thus they could not understand what Jesus was telling them because they had already reject Him and thus God as well and were not of Him to understand."
I am going to say it the way I see it. If you are of God you are saved and hear (if you dont hear you will be taught if it is for you to know). If you are not of God you are not saved and do not understand the gospel. There is no choice, because God chooses those who hear and understand spiritually. For those who have been "given" to know the secrets of the Kingdom of God, while for others they are in parables, seeing they cannot see and hearing they cannot understand. Yes they pondered that He was of God, but they didnt believe, because God didnt discern the spiritual things to them for them to believe. If they truly would have believed He was the messiah like He said, then they would have turned but they didnt know or understand that although He told them they didnt see because they werent of God. In other words God never opened their hearts to Himself, although they heard. If He would have they would have turned. I cant see how you say God reveals to them Himself spiritually and they reject, while saying they didnt see Him spiritually? How can they reject if they didnt understand who He was? That is part of Gods drawing and revelataion to sinners, is spiritual understanding (not all but the beginning of wisdom). This is exactly why I say when God calls them unto Himself at understanding that they are saved, but again they were never called to understand..

"John 10 - Again context and is the same as my comment on John 8 and as such Jesus is contrasting the two groups. Believers and unbelievers. They are sheep, just not his sheep and they are not His because they do not beleive.
right believers are Gods flock and unbelievers are not. "

Verse 16: "And I have other sheep (predestined) that are (currently) not of this fold. And I will bring them also and they "will" (no choice) listen to my voice." (chosen beforehand)
V 26: "You do not believe b/c you are not part of my flock." reverse it- If you believed then you would be part of my flock already. unbelief = not of flock, belief=of flock, no middle grounds, you cant be unbelieving and be of the flock. If "you" decided to believe then there would be a time before you were saved that you believed. So therefore you must be saved first to believe. just to make it clear, if believing came before saving then youd be unsaved and believe = not of flock believing. We know that pleasing God in the flesh isnt possible because He finds pleasure only in the trinity and He doesnt need our pleasing to be perfectly pleased, therefore we cannot please Him. If we outside of Him believed then we in flesh would be offering extra pleasure to be saved. If we believe in Spirit then He is believing for us. That would require the Holy Spirit inside which comes when salvation begins.
V27: "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me."
V28 "I give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." (parable of the sower 4th seed, not even the devil can change this Will, but He can in the first three).
V29 "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and noone is able to snatch them out of my father's hand." in other words, when the Father Calls someone it is history from eternity past there are no negotiations, the Will is done.

 

[Allan]

"There is no problem with Acts 13:48." As many as were chosen to eternal life, believed... Seems to me that God has called these people to salvation?

Acts 16:14 is no issue either since the Lord must open our hearts in order to accept or reject. So when the Lord gives secrets and revelations to the chosen, you are saying that hes giving them that for a choice of accept or reject? I know your answer is yes, but maybe throw a scripture at me where God opens up a heart and it doesnt do exactly what it is opened to do? In other words a heart that God takes into His own hands and it doesnt do a pleasing thing to God..

2 Tim 2:19 is not a problem either.
"HOWEVER, 2 Tim 2:25-26 is not speaking of an unbeliever but a believer who has fallen into sin. The 'giving of repentenance' is also said this way - allowing them to repent. Even as Sons we are still subject to his discipline and that includes death." this is similar to above, and I agree the context is to believers, but again I dont see an unbeliever believing before regenerate to be able to believe which is going to happen every time they are justified and called to ministry from death to life. a dead man even if revealed God cannot see God, so I cant see how he is given a choice unless brought to life..

Eze 36:27 - "Keep in context - this has nothing to do with us in the this present time and for a specific people - Jews." Yes God is speaking throguh Ezekiel to Israel. This message is also to us. God is greatly stressing I from 36:22-38. God is the one that does it, while we were dead in our tresspasses God resurrected us making us be alive in Christ, so we may vindicate the holiness of His name and bear fruit. Lemme ask you another question, did Jesus heal the blind man before he believed or after?

Phil 2:12-13 - Is speaking of and to believers who are walking in righteousness. Right but we can apply it to the flesh in reverse, it is God who works in us, both to will and work for His good pleasure. I just cant imagine doing a single thing right without God being behind it or else I would say I pleased God without God working in me...

John 6:37-39 - "there is no problem here either. All God has given will be saved." (v40) no one looks on the Son or believes in the flesh aka unsaved, and unbeliever. All that the Father gives will come to Jesus, and those will never leave, again b/c once saved always saved and upheld by God. So we can say everyone who is called/chosen by the Father comes to Jesus for eternal life, and those not chosen will not be called to eternal life... Also go back to verse 35, Jesus is the living bread, whoever comes to Him are saved (chosen by the Father) they will never hunger or thirst (beattitudes) because they have been blessed (not all are blessed). You cannot say that the Father draws them to Himself and then they reject and thirst again (spiritually), because all the father draws/chooses/calls to himself will never thirst, and they will believe. Let me ask you this is God calls (Wills) you to preach can you mess that up and reject the call?

John 6:44-45 - Again no problem unless one makes an assumption. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. This does not negate that God draws all men (as Christ said He would) but that no one can come unless drawn. Remember that Jesus is dealing with Jews here and not only does their sin stand in their way but they are blinded by God due to their rebelliousness. Thus no one can come unless drawn. Notice also in vs 45 that those who come have been both taught and have learned. In order to learn you must accept or recieve what it told you as fact which simply reiterates what Jesus previously stated in v.40."

V47 whoever believes "has eternal life." Yes those who came were taught and learned from God, therefore they had fellowship which was not broken anymore. They were taught because they were healed and able to listen and believe. The flesh is not willing but the spirit is always willing.. So to listen to God in flesh and believe is not the nature, but rather the Spirit of God listens to the Father and whatever He hears He does. The flesh is rebellious. So maybe this is another time to explain to me the picture of God bringing you to Him "for the choice to be of His Will which He foreknew" where you are still in flesh but actually are in a position to believe without the Spirit acting upon your decision at all? and If he foreknew His Will and you are of His Will to come and accept or reject, but yet made a choice, then how is His Will sovereign because you'd be changing it in eternity past by your Will.

John 7:37-38 - there is really no problem here thus I'm not sure why you added it. Simply jesus showing the picture of the saved man who is believing. But yea it isnt the best verse here to get into, hah

John 8:47 - "This needs to be kept in context .. Jesus was not saying that unless you are saved you can't hear God but they (knowing who He really was - John 3:2) rejected Him already. Thus they could not understand what Jesus was telling them because they had already reject Him and thus God as well and were not of Him to understand."
I am going to say it the way I see it. If you are of God you are saved and hear (if you dont hear you will be taught if it is for you to know). If you are not of God you are not saved and do not understand the gospel. There is no choice, because God chooses those who hear and understand spiritually. For those who have been "given" to know the secrets of the Kingdom of God, while for others they are in parables, seeing they cannot see and hearing they cannot understand. Yes they pondered that He was of God, but they didnt believe, because God didnt discern the spiritual things to them for them to believe. If they truly would have believed He was the messiah like He said, then they would have turned but they didnt know or understand that although He told them they didnt see because they werent of God. In other words God never opened their hearts to Himself, although they heard. If He would have they would have turned. I cant see how you say God reveals to them Himself spiritually and they reject, while saying they didnt see Him spiritually? How can they reject if they didnt understand who He was? That is part of Gods drawing and revelataion to sinners, is spiritual understanding (not all but the beginning of wisdom). This is exactly why I say when God calls them unto Himself at understanding that they are saved, but again they were never called to understand..

"John 10 - Again context and is the same as my comment on John 8 and as such Jesus is contrasting the two groups. Believers and unbelievers. They are sheep, just not his sheep and they are not His because they do not beleive.
right believers are Gods flock and unbelievers are not. "

Verse 16: "And I have other sheep (predestined) that are (currently) not of this fold. And I will bring them also and they "will" (no choice) listen to my voice." (chosen beforehand)
V 26: "You do not believe b/c you are not part of my flock." reverse it- If you believed then you would be part of my flock already. unbelief = not of flock, belief=of flock, no middle grounds, you cant be unbelieving and be of the flock. If "you" decided to believe then there would be a time before you were saved that you believed. So therefore you must be saved first to believe. just to make it clear, if believing came before saving then youd be unsaved and believe = not of flock believing. We know that pleasing God in the flesh isnt possible because He finds pleasure only in the trinity and He doesnt need our pleasing to be perfectly pleased, therefore we cannot please Him. If we outside of Him believed then we in flesh would be offering extra pleasure to be saved. If we believe in Spirit then He is believing for us. That would require the Holy Spirit inside which comes when salvation begins.
V27: "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me."
V28 "I give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." (parable of the sower 4th seed, not even the devil can change this Will, but He can in the first three).
V29 "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and noone is able to snatch them out of my father's hand." in other words, when the Father Calls someone it is history from eternity past there are no negotiations, the Will is done.

No fair, instead of doing just one as you wanted you hit them all :laugh:

I will section it off one at a time then :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

"There is no problem with Acts 13:48."

As many as were chosen to eternal life, believed... Seems to me that God has called these people to salvation?

No doubt, for none can come unless called. But not all who are called come. Jesus Himself addresses this in the Wedding Feast parable. Many are called but few are chosen. And Paul stating in Rom 10 for those who hear God to not harden their hearts as the Jews did in the provocation.

Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation

.
And more and more can be given.

I'll do another on in this since they sort link together:

Acts 16:14 is no issue either since the Lord must open our hearts in order to accept or reject.

So when the Lord gives secrets and revelations to the chosen, you are saying that hes giving them that for a choice of accept or reject? I know your answer is yes, but maybe throw a scripture at me where God opens up a heart and it doesnt do exactly what it is opened to do? In other words a heart that God takes into His own hands and it doesnt do a pleasing thing to God..

And just what does God reveal to those elect that He does not reveal the those who reject Him? I have found nothing different. The very fact He reveals those same things the unelect makes you have to ask - why would God do that if He never intends thus desires to save them?

Let me ask you this. What exactly does it mean to 'open the heart'?
It simply means that God is allowing them to hear and understand.
Now, understand what? Sin, righteousness (His righteousness), and His judgment to come. This is the exact same thing we find God doing in many of those scriptures I gave previoulsly gave in this thread. And many more besides.

Can anyone know any spiritual truth apart from God? No.
Then the question must be asked, why does God reveal the same things to bot the elect and none elect?

Notice what Jesus says to those who followed after Him across the sea in John 6 (those who would not believe).

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Again, who are the 'you' (plural) here in John 6. Those whom Jesus made this statement about:

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

So not only is Sin, righteousness, and Judgment revealed (all of which encompass the knowledge of God) He is 'given' by God for both the elect and non-elect. Thus the message of salvation goes to all men and 1 Tim 2 regarding God desires all men to be saved and come the knowledge of truth stands true.

Gods calling/drawing is the revealation of truth and all those who He foreknew will undeniably come, but that does not negate the fact that all others are called as well but few are chosen.

 

[Rippon]

Before I answer you, please give scripture that states the Lord only opens the hearts of the elect alone.

I asked you to funish just one passage which says that the Lord opens the hearts of all people --'all' meaning each and every.So you don't get to say :"Before I answer you". I'm the one who asked you the initial question.Now if you can't affirm that any such text exists then please tell me : "Indeed Rippon,I was wrong to say that the Lord opens the hearts of all.Scripture will not bear that out." Or words to that effect will suffice.

 

[Allan]

2 Tim 2:19 is not a problem either.
"HOWEVER, 2 Tim 2:25-26 is not speaking of an unbeliever but a believer who has fallen into sin. The 'giving of repentenance' is also said this way - allowing them to repent. Even as Sons we are still subject to his discipline and that includes death."

this is similar to above, and I agree the context is to believers, but again I dont see an unbeliever believing before regenerate to be able to believe which is going to happen every time they are justified and called to ministry from death to life. a dead man even if revealed God cannot see God, so I cant see how he is given a choice unless brought to life.

There is WAY to much to go into on this one.
I would say with due regard to 'Regeneration' please check out these threads I started regarding that very subject. You will get a better understanding of where I am coming from and we can continue that aspect of this conversation there.
1. Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again
2. Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration

Secondly, be careful about 'assuming' dead is to be taken in the wooden literal meaning. Paul uses this word regarding spiritual things as a meaning of being seperated from God and so without true life- thus dead. Paul uses this word to not only describe the non-believer but ALSO the believer!

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If dead is supposed to be take in the wooden literal form regarding the spiritual condition (and that meaning to be 'unable') then Paul is stating that believers are unable to sin! The meaning that you are using is something theologically superimposed upon the text or more specifically the word. Since it is context that establishes the words meaning and we know according scripture that spiritually we do not literally die then this must mean something other than the wooden literal.


Another thing. You are not justified prior to believing, nor does the holy Spirit indwell you prior to believing, nor are you alive (which is literally IN Christ) prior to believing. Notice the scriptures:

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

 

[Allan]

I asked you to funish just one passage which says that the Lord opens the hearts of all people --'all' meaning each and every.So you don't get to say :"Before I answer you". I'm the one who asked you the initial question.Now if you can't affirm that any such text exists then please tell me : "Indeed Rippon,I was wrong to say that the Lord opens the hearts of all.Scripture will not bear that out." Or words to that effect will suffice.

No need. Just read through the thread, I have posted a multitude of verses that speak specifically to that subject.
But here is one from Jesus:
I, If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.

or 1 Tim 2:3-4 God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

or Rom 1:18-32 where God reveals to all men Himself, sin, righteousness and judgment to come as decleared by Jesus via the Holy Spirit - who is to rebuke the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

Or Heb 3:15 where Paul state to those who 'hear' do not harden your hearts.

or 2 Thes 2:10-12 where it states that these men rejected the truth that could 'save them' and it was for that reason that God damned them. Rejecting the truth He revealed to them that could save them.

or on and on and on...

 

[Allan]

If we keep going "Z" I will take up 2 more pages on all your other one. Lets us stop for now - k?

 

[Rippon]

No need. Just read through the thread, I have posted a multitude of verses that speak specifically to that subject.
But here is one from Jesus:
I, If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.

or 1 Tim 2:3-4 God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

or Rom 1:18-32 where God reveals to all men Himself, sin, righteousness and judgment to come as decleared by Jesus via the Holy Spirit - who is to rebuke the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

Or Heb 3:15 where Paul state to those who 'hear' do not harden your hearts.

or 2 Thes 2:10-12 where it states that these men rejected the truth that could 'save them' and it was for that reason that God damned them. Rejecting the truth He revealed to them that could save them.

or on and on and on...

You do go on and on;however,none of the verses you quoted say a word about the Lord opening the hearts of all people.If you think the passages you listed do that -- then you employ strange hermeneutics.Lydia's case is not be to universalized --the Bible gives no warrant for such a belief.

 

[Allan]

You do go on and on;however,none of the verses you quoted say a word about the Lord opening the hearts of all people.If you think the passages you listed do that -- then you employ strange hermeneutics.Lydia's case is not be to universalized --the Bible gives no warrant for such a belief.

Of course I do, the truth is the truth. I believe Scripture gives sound support for what I am saying. The hermeneutics that are applied, regarding my positio, are quite simple really - no man can know any spiritual truth unless God reveals it to them and thus God opens the heart that the person might hear and understand. It is there and only there that man can accept or reject those truths God has revealed.

However I am still waiting for your verse that says the Lord only opens the hearts of His elect.

 

[Jerome]

"John Knox did much, but he might perhaps have done more if he had had a little love . . . . Behold in Christ love consolidated! He was one mighty pillar of benevolence. As God is love, so Christ is love. Oh, ye Christians, be ye loving also. Let your love and your beneficence beam out on all men . . . . If there is one virtue which most commends Christians, it is that of kindness; it is to love the people of God, to love the church, to love the world, to love all. But how many have we in our churches of Crab-tree Christians, who have mixed such a vast amount of vinegar, and such a tremendous quantity of gall in their constitutions, that they can scarcely speak one good word . . . . Be ye not thus, my brethren. Imitate Christ in your loving spirits" ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[HankD]

When one injects himself into a debate that is already going on between two people and that injector takes one side over the other, is it not safe to assume he his joining with one side against the other?

No grasshopper.

In a public debate forum anyone may challenge any other whether the point of debate is supported by the challenger or not.

You have acknowledged and affirmed the standard answer but still have not personally answered my question: Is Jesus a universalist because He said He would draw all men to Himself if He were lifted up?


HankD

 

[Rippon]

"John Knox did much, but he might perhaps have done more if he had... Imitate Christ in your loving spirits" ---Charles Spurgeon

What in the world does this quote from Charles H.Spurgeon have to do with the present discussion?

 

[Rippon]

No need. Just read through the thread, I have posted a multitude of verses that speak specifically to that subject.
But here is one from Jesus:
I, If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.

No opening of the heart by God here if by "all men" you thing there is a universality to the passage.I take the drawing as it is developed in John six.

or 1 Tim 2:3-4 God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

There is no reference to God opening all hearts here.

or Rom 1:18-32 where God reveals to all men Himself, sin, righteousness and judgment to come as decleared by Jesus via the Holy Spirit - who is to rebuke the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

In Romans 1:18-32 there is no opening of the hearts of all people in evidence whatsoever.

Or Heb 3:15 where Paul state to those who 'hear' do not harden your hearts.

Nope.There is no sign of God opening the heats of any here.

or 2 Thes 2:10-12 where it states that these men rejected the truth that could 'save them' and it was for that reason that God damned them. Rejecting the truth He revealed to them that could save them.

There certainly is no such indication that God is opening any hearts -- much less the hearts of all people here.

or on and on and on...

You can go on and on with your non-proof passages.But that will prove that you can't get blood from a turnip.You can not extract that which is not present.

 

[Grasshopper]

No grasshopper.

In a public debate forum anyone may challenge any other whether the point of debate is supported by the challenger or not.

OK, I've never read the Debate Forum Rule book. All I know is you haven't answered my question. You seem more interested in debating debates.

You have acknowledged and affirmed the standard answer but still have not personally answered my question: Is Jesus a universalist because He said He would draw all men to Himself if He were lifted up?

Actually I did, the answer was NO.

ALLAN

No doubt, for none can come unless called. But not all who are called come

.


Well then apparently not all who are justified are glorified because not all who are called are justified.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.