Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

[Jerome]

""No," says one strong-doctrine man, "God never invites all men to himself; he invites none but certain characters." Stop, sir, that is all you know about it. Did you ever read that parable where it is said, My oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready; come unto the marriage." And they that were bidden would not come. And did you never read that they all began to make excuse, and that they were punished because they did not accept the invitations. Now, if the invitation is not to be made to anybody, but to the man who will accept it, how can that parable be true? The fact is, the oxen and fatlings are killed; the wedding feast is ready, and the trumpet sounds, "Ho every one that thirsteth, come and eat, come and drink." Here are the provisions spread, here is an all-sufficiency; the invitation is free; it is a great invitation. "Whosoever will, let him come and take of the water of life freely."" ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Allan]

No opening of the heart by God here if by "all men" you thing there is a universality to the passage.I take the drawing as it is developed in John six.



There is no reference to God opening all hearts here.




In Romans 1:18-32 there is no opening of the hearts of all people in evidence whatsoever.




Nope.There is no sign of God opening the heats of any here.



There certainly is no such indication that God is opening any hearts -- much less the hearts of all people here.



You can go on and on with your non-proof passages.But that will prove that you can't get blood from a turnip.You can not extract that which is not present.

Then it is apparent you do not understand what 'opening the heart' means or entails. Scripture states God opened and she believed NOT She believed because God opened. Secondly you still have yet to post your scripture with states that God ONLY opens the elects heart. Again, blood from a turnip huh.

Anyway, you are going back into your childish postings so you can enjoy talking with yourself. It is a shame that you being a child of God still have not learned to engage debate with grace and civility.

 

[Allan]

Well then apparently not all who are justified are glorified because not all who are called are justified.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Oh yes, but the 'called' there is speaking of the means by which God drew those whom He foreknew. To assume this is speaking of God calling only the elect is going beyond the plain reading of the text and imposing your theology upon the wording.

Otherwise we must declare Jesus a liar who said that many are called but few chosen. And if you will study the parable you will find the many are the two groups called seperately but not called differently. That being the Jews were called by God and since they 'rejected' it, the Gentiles were called. There is no special selecting in the calling there but a definate and real invitation to all men to come and partake.

An illistration of what I mean:
I can send out invitations to 100 people to be my guests. Now all are called and called in the same way, but only those who come are called my guests, yet when refering to the means by which they came are they not 'the called'?

 

[HankD]

OK, I've never read the Debate Forum Rule book. All I know is you haven't answered my question.
You seem more interested in debating debates.

True, when I'm intersted in bowling, I go to a bowling alley when I'm interested in debating
I go to a debate forum.

Actually I did, the answer was NO.

Also true but you didn't explain why "all" doesn't mean "all".

It does not matter if one believes "draws" and "called" have the same meaning.

It does matter if the Word of God has a different meaning for each word.

And I did so by pointing to Romans 8:29-30. Perhaps you can enlighten me who the called are in that passage.
Were they also drawn?

One merely needs to read the passage, those who are called are they who love God.
Whether they were "drawn" is not revealed in this passage.

Roman 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The smokescreen was in answer to Allan's question. Since when are we no longer allowed to quote others?
And I did so by pointing to Romans 8:29-30. Perhaps you can enlighten me who the called are in that passage.
Were they also drawn?

Actually IMO the smokescreen was used to deflect a central issue in this thread:
Verse 1
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Verse 2
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In verse 1 those who are being coming to Christ are being drawn by the Father, Christ promises to raise them up at the last day.
In verse 2 Jesus now says that if He is lifted up from the earth He will draw all men to Himself.

Please put those 2 verses together and explain/exegete why Christ is not a universalist. That is and has been my challenge to you.

So does God open the heart of all men?

He enlightens every man who comes into this world and reproves /convicts the world of sin.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

HankD

 

[Rippon]

None of the verses you quoted say a word about the Lord opening the hearts of all people.If you think the passages you listed do that -- then you employ strange hermeneutics.Lydia's case is not be to universalized --the Bible gives no warrant for such a belief.

Again,John 12:32;1 Timothy 2:3,4;Romans 1:18-32;Hebrews 3:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do not produce any evidence,sign or indication of your unique belief that the Lord opens the hearts of all people everywhere just as Lydia's was.

The Lord opens only the hearts of His elect like Lydia. He hardens the hearts of everyone else.

Do you maintain that the Lord opens the hearts of the ones He hardens?! That is confusing theology.

Everyone has stony hearts to begin with.However, the Lord graciously gives some hearts of flesh -- that is tender and responsive hearts.(As Ezekiel 11:19 and 36:26 speak of for examples).

 

[Me4Him]

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Like most calvinist I've debated with, you're under the impresson that some must be condemned in order for God to accomplish his plan,

But what does the scripture say??

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If God has predestine "ONE PERSON" to be condemned, then the scriptures are wrong,

It was "possible" for God to accomplish his plan without one person being condemned,

predestination doesn't offer "other possibilities".

 

[Grasshopper]

Allan
Oh yes, but the 'called' there is speaking of the means by which God drew those whom He foreknew.

Who did He foreknow? All men?

Also true but you didn't explain why "all" doesn't mean "all".

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So when Christ was crucified “all people” were drawn by Him? Does this include the American Indians in the year AD30? Or the Mayans or those living in China? Years after the crucifixion were Paul and the other Disciples teaching those who had already been drawn by the Father even though they knew nothing of the God of Abraham not to mention a Jewish carpenter named Jesus? It must be exactly what you believe, true?

Or does it mean this:

"Chrysostom and Theophylact say that this word "all" refers to all nations: that is, not only to the Jews."

The above seems the most plausible to me since clearly all men were not drawn to Him.

Quote:
It does not matter if one believes "draws" and "called" have the same meaning.


It does matter if the Word of God has a different meaning for each word.

But as I pointed out, the person I was discussing this with doesn’t believe they have different meanings.

Allan
"Any time God is calling men from darkness to light, from error to truth, or righteousness from unrighteousness you have God drawing men. His drawing and calling are the same thing."

Roman 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
One merely needs to read the passage, those who are called are they who love God.
Whether they were "drawn" is not revealed in this passage.

But according to Allan drawn and called are the same thing.

Not sure how a natural man can ever “love God”. Unless of course God does something to the man's heart first. But wouldn’t that violate the man’s free will to be at enmity against God.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Actually IMO the smokescreen was used to deflect a central issue in this thread:
Verse 1
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Verse 2
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In verse 1 those who are being coming to Christ are being drawn by the Father, Christ promises to raise them up at the last day.
In verse 2 Jesus now says that if He is lifted up from the earth He will draw all men to Himself.

Please put those 2 verses together and explain/exegete why Christ is not a universalist. That is and has been my challenge to you.

And this is what I have repeated, if God draws all men, and drawn is the same as called and according to Romans 8:30 all who are called are justified then why is that not Universalism.

Secondly the reason Jesus is not a Universalist is because He only effectually calls His elect. If He however taught as you and Allan, He would be a Universalist.

Quote:
So does God open the heart of all men?

He enlightens every man who comes into this world and reproves /convicts the world of sin.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Is that a yes to the question of does God open the heart of all men?

“All people” means Jews and Gentiles alike.

Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

[Grasshopper]

Like most calvinist I've debated with, you're under the impresson that some must be condemned in order for God to accomplish his plan,

But what does the scripture say??

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Context:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

In reference to the elect.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Definition: Propitiation is that priestly work of Christ wherein He removed God's anger and wrath by the covering over of our sins through the substitutionary sacrifice of Himself to God, thus securing our acceptance before God

He's done that for the whole world already? Back to Universalism, unless He will once again get angry and pour out His wrath for sins that have already been covered by Christ.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Not only Jews but Gentiles as well.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If God has predestine "ONE PERSON" to be condemned, then the scriptures are wrong,

Was not man condemned upon birth?

It was "possible" for God to accomplish his plan without one person being condemned,

Not sure of the point you're trying to make. But I say again, man was condemned already. Whether one wishes to say God did it or not, they are condemned already.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

predestination doesn't offer "other possibilities".

Was God active in man's future or merely reactive?

 

[HankD]

Secondly the reason Jesus is not a Universalist is because He only effectually calls His elect. If He however taught as you and Allan, He would be a Universalist

well, at least and at last you gave an answer.

But, the best answer is that the words "all men" in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The word "men" is in italics meaning that it is not in the original Greek, so therefore its up for debate what the word "all" modifies.

So putting John 12:32 together with John 6:37 it would be pefectly legitimate to say the Jesus would draw "all" those in John 6:37 that "the Father giveth me" in John 6:37.

HankD

 

[Me4Him]

Was not man condemned upon birth?

Adam's sin condemned all flesh, and Adam's soul, but Adam sin didn't condemn "OTHER SOULS".

Sins of the soul are not inherited from Father to son, each soul must commit it's own sin to be guilty, and that requires "knowledge of Good/evil". (age of accountability)

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Not sure of the point you're trying to make. But I say again, man was condemned already. Whether one wishes to say God did it or not, they are condemned already.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The problem with the predestination doctrine is that it looks at the scriptures "BACKWARDS",

it believes the some must be condemned in order for God to accomplish his mission,

But the truth/Gospel is that God/Jesus did all that was necessary to save every single human being,

and the "TRUE GOSPEL" is that the reason "ALL MEN" are not saved is because "MEN REJECTS GOD", rather than "GOD REJECTING SOME MEN".

And when you "inject" terms like efficacious calling vs. IN-efficacious calling into the gospel, you're denying God offer salvation to "ALL MEN" equally.

Only when you start viewing the scriptures as God/Jesus desiring to save everyone,

will you have a correct understanding of the scriptures and why everyone isn't saved,

which violates God's will rather than "being God will", as predestination would have us believe.

 

[webdog]

An illistration of what I mean:
I can send out invitations to 100 people to be my guests. Now all are called and called in the same way, but only those who come are called my guests, yet when refering to the means by which they came are they not 'the called'?

Excellent illustration :thumbs:

 

[Me4Him]

Excellent illustration :thumbs:

And scripture.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (Jerusalem, 70AD)

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. (to attend the lamb's marriage supper)

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (Gentiles church)

 

[zrs6v4]

No doubt, for none can come unless called. But not all who are called come. Jesus Himself addresses this in the Wedding Feast parable. Many are called but few are chosen. And Paul stating in Rom 10 for those who hear God to not harden their hearts as the Jews did in the provocation.
.
And more and more can be given.

I'll do another on in this since they sort link together:


And just what does God reveal to those elect that He does not reveal the those who reject Him? I have found nothing different. The very fact He reveals those same things the unelect makes you have to ask - why would God do that if He never intends thus desires to save them?

Let me ask you this. What exactly does it mean to 'open the heart'?
It simply means that God is allowing them to hear and understand.
Now, understand what? Sin, righteousness (His righteousness), and His judgment to come. This is the exact same thing we find God doing in many of those scriptures I gave previoulsly gave in this thread. And many more besides.

Can anyone know any spiritual truth apart from God? No.
Then the question must be asked, why does God reveal the same things to bot the elect and none elect?

Notice what Jesus says to those who followed after Him across the sea in John 6 (those who would not believe).

Again, who are the 'you' (plural) here in John 6. Those whom Jesus made this statement about:

So not only is Sin, righteousness, and Judgment revealed (all of which encompass the knowledge of God) He is 'given' by God for both the elect and non-elect. Thus the message of salvation goes to all men and 1 Tim 2 regarding God desires all men to be saved and come the knowledge of truth stands true.

Gods calling/drawing is the revealation of truth and all those who He foreknew will undeniably come, but that does not negate the fact that all others are called as well but few are chosen.

Sorry I got busy the other day, but here is my point..... I think this will show you my understanding which is in progress..

Yes many and many will hear about sin, righteousness, and judgement....

But while some hear they dont understand... say someone is 15 years old and they hear the gospel and go to church there whole life have asked Christ into their lives and do whatever else. Then one day they go to church and they see it in a real way, a way that connects the worldview and reality to the bible. A way in which they never saw or understood before. In a sense they were blinded there whole life but now they have been revealed the truth. So at one point they saw and thought they understood, when in the fuutre they find out that they never really undertsoond at all.... This revelation of truth brings forth, brokenness, fear, the real revelation of sin upon ones life, the great need of a savior, hunger for wanting to see and understand depths, and much more.... That is what I believe Jesus means when He says in Matt. 13:11.

I am having a hard time remembering all we have discussed so bear with me if I repeat.. What I am saying is that I just have a nudge many people dont believe like I just said.

And for your statements on the term systematic theology- YEs I totally agree it is just another word that says this, Let the bible interperet itself.. who what, when, where, why, how's.. And every rellevent aspect of the biblwe to be in affect before concluding with a view. As you know its a fancy word for trusting in the Word.

 

[webdog]

Truth is suppressed. Jesus said the faith of a child is needed, so there is nothing difficult to understand. The "god of this world" blinds us to this so simple Truth. Your illustration of the 15 year old would have him being regenerated (born again) so he can hear the Gospel. This puts the 15 year old from passing from spiritual death to spiritual life before faith in Christ, hence salvation comes apart from Christ. Faith and regeneration go hand in hand.

 

[zrs6v4]

If we keep going "Z" I will take up 2 more pages on all your other one. Lets us stop for now - k?

haha, I totally am at that point, and thats fine.. I would like you if you will to just work through a small passage before we call it.. it was my last statement and maybe you can bring me understanding by showing me my wornging in the short passage... again thanks for all your time, so if you dont I understand...

"John 10 - Again context and is the same as my comment on John 8 and as such Jesus is contrasting the two groups. Believers and unbelievers. They are sheep, just not his sheep and they are not His because they do not beleive.
right believers are Gods flock and unbelievers are not. "

Verse 16: "And I have other sheep (predestined) that are (currently) not of this fold. And I will bring them also and they "will" (no choice, while yes they are choosing God already made it to be done) listen to my voice." (chosen beforehand)
V 26: "You do not believe b/c you are not part of my flock." reverse it- If you believed then you would be part of my flock already. unbelief = not of flock, belief=of flock, no middle grounds, you cant be unbelieving and be of the flock. If "you" decided to believe then there would be a time before you were saved that you believed. So therefore you must be saved first to believe. just to make it clear, if believing came before saving then youd be unsaved and believe = not of flock believing. We know that pleasing God in the flesh isnt possible because He finds pleasure only in the trinity and He doesnt need our pleasing to be perfectly pleased, therefore we cannot please Him. If we outside of Him believed then we in flesh would be offering extra pleasure to be saved. If we believe in Spirit then He is believing for us. That would require the Holy Spirit inside which comes when salvation begins.
V27: "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me."
V28 "I give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." (parable of the sower 4th seed, not even the devil can change this Will, but He can in the first three).
V29 "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and noone is able to snatch them out of my father's hand." in other words, when the Father Calls someone it is history from eternity past there are no negotiations, the Will is done. But His context is that once saved your always gonna be saved (I believe). But as of right now it seems to me that if you say that then this can be concluded--

1-personal participation in belief leads to saying we can lose our salvation upon personal participation. This one says God gives choice and if we choose to gain life then we also will be allowed to fall away if we choose and lose it....

2-while no participation leads to God gving and upholding our salvation which cannot be lost. This one says even though we are totally involved God reigns over us totally.

So therefore I conclude with saying that it doesnt make sense (unless you show me) that one can choose salvation then all of a sudden God gives them no choice to lose it? You can resolve this quickly by saying you take the first statement, hah.. Again sorry for dragging this on..

 

[zrs6v4]

Truth is suppressed. Jesus said the faith of a child is needed, so there is nothing difficult to understand. The "god of this world" blinds us to this so simple Truth. Your illustration of the 15 year old would have him being regenerated (born again) so he can hear the Gospel. This puts the 15 year old from passing from spiritual death to spiritual life before faith in Christ, hence salvation comes apart from Christ. Faith and regeneration go hand in hand.

Ok a 30 yr old man has been to church his whole life and then at age 40 encounters the Holy Spirit opening up his heart as I used the wrong age.
This bring true belief and it is like a child totally helpless (humble) before God relying on him as a child would his parent (this is an outcome I didnt put).

We, in every way will be like a child before God... its amazing to think about how a child is and how simple it is to have a relationship with God. We all come across in harsh and wrong ways at times and other times we are easy, obviously. But this is a deep debate and I would not go to a 15 year old and tell him any of this, but teach him simple truths.... So dont impose that on me please...

The question is for everyone- have you become like a little child, loving, enjoying, hiding, being shy, hanging out, wanting to go everywhere with, relying on, and so forth with God?

I noticed this greatly when I was born again as a spiritual baby, I knew absolutely nothing in depth. But now as i grow up Im Im learning and maturing.

HEre is a verse quoted on page 9-

John 9:41- "If you were blind, you would have no guilt, but now that you say, We see, ' your guilt remains."

John 9:39 is the key- "For judgement I came into this world, that those who may not see may see, and those who may see may become blind." I hinted this earlier in my posting to everyone who knows it all, haha

This is a wrong approach to God when you are an unbeliever or a believer. Jesus is simply illustrating humbleness to the Pharisees.

Before you can come to saving faith you must realize your need for Jesus and your sin's damage, you dont come and say yes I have sin, duh. Its an opening of heart towards God. Like I said when I truly came to God, I remember saying and having such fear from my unbelief (although I believed) in my life and I openly confessed it, I knew I was helpless and I needed God to perform a miracle for me to be right. I couldnt in any way supplement this miracle to happen. So I was like a child throwing myself on and relying on God totally, which at the time I didnt know what was going on. I knew God was always there and was loving and good, but I didnt feel the Holy Spirit rubbing my back or anything. I already had a firm pact within that was a new life with God through all of this, but I knew none of that mattered without God. I knew He could do anything and was everywhere and saw everything. This all occured after a sermon (right when I bought my 20th car, dream car), and while in all of this I chose oddly enough to sepereate myself from the world and be lost in the Word of God, why I have no clue, but I didnt have to consider it, its what I desired.
When I was 11 I prayed a prayer and thought I was saved, and that went on for 11 more years (blindness, no desires for anything godly). When I was 11 I really wanted to be saved and not go to hell, so I thought all was well and I believed I was saved and different from everyone else.. I did my own thing for 11 years and it ended up failing out of college in bars on drugs searching for happiness in possessions and money (which is what that sermon was about). This all was used by God as good to show me Himself and myself truly. I saw my sin for the first time and how I was just as bad and worse than everyone else, I was the hypocrite unbeliever that needed a savior. I was the one the bible spoke to, not them. by the way when i came to Christ and wanted to lose my life for Him I already thought I was saved coming into it, which is interesting.

So maybe that will help illustrate my point, and Im not going just by my own encounter (as we all do to feel comfortable) but to the Word's explanation as a whole in context (which we are all learning).

I thought a bit of my testimony would be good, sorry for rambling on.

 

[zrs6v4]

Webdog I am trying to say that to see and understand we must be regenerate. I get born again and regenerate all mixed up so please excuse me as I try to explain my point the best I can. I know I may have contradicted myself in the previous posted as Im trying to sort this all out, but please bare with me. So God must revive the soul in order to bring that soul to the choice which is inevitable.
another thing is this- We know everything happens for a reason. So when someone lives in this life and has a hard life, very broken and chooses to use drugs to ease the pain then they have put their faith in drugs....
Now when the same person puts their faith in God, they get grace....
Did they come to God by accident, why did God allow one to go one way and the other the opposite? The Holy Spirit preparing regeneration.. Im not saying they were born again, but predestined to have faith in Christ to be born again. (In a sense they couldnt reject while they still had the choice).
John the Baptist is a great example of predestination. Luke 1:12-17 why didnt John get a choice? At best you would say some are predestined and others have a choice.

I conclude with we are saved through faith by grace.

 

[Allan]

Sorry I got busy the other day, but here is my point..... I think this will show you my understanding which is in progress..

Sorry as well. I have been out due to an intencely painful inner ear ache.

Yes many and many will hear about sin, righteousness, and judgement....

I want to break your post down a bit if that is ok.
Your above is a true statement but it lacks qualification.
Let ask a couple of questions to 'flesh out' your statement.

1. How will they hear about sin, righteousness, and judgment?
....1a. IOW - who will reveal these things that are only known spiritually?
(this [a] question is holding to the knowledge that spiritual things can not found out or 'known' by men in and of themself - they must be revealed)

Is not the answer God? Do we not find in the scriptures that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals these things?(John 16:8) Do we also not find in the scriptures that God Himself is revealing these things (Rom 1:18-19)?

2. Why is God doing this?

But while some hear they dont understand...

Ok, Some more questions need to asked in order to properly understand this statement.

1. If it is God who reveals these spiritual truths to them then why must we 'assume' they did not understand?

2. If something is 'revealed' is not the definition of the word - to make 'known' that which was not previously known?
...2a. Does not the very word 'know' or 'known' explicitly mean to understand?
(Definition #1 of "Know" - to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: )


The 'assumption' that these men did not know is not something that comes from scripture but is part of the 'logical' argumentation. Remember that regeneration prior to faith/salvation is not something biblically expressed but is a actaully part of 'logical order' in the Reformed view.

say someone is 15 years old and they hear the gospel and go to church there whole life have asked Christ into their lives and do whatever else. Then one day they go to church and they see it in a real way, a way that connects the worldview and reality to the bible. A way in which they never saw or understood before. In a sense they were blinded there whole life but now they have been revealed the truth. So at one point they saw and thought they understood, when in the fuutre they find out that they never really undertsoond at all.... This revelation of truth brings forth, brokenness, fear, the real revelation of sin upon ones life, the great need of a savior, hunger for wanting to see and understand depths, and much more....

This last part, again, is an assumption.
We find nothing in scripture that says when this happens you will or must come to Christ. But on the contrary we do find in scripture like where Paul states 'do not harden your hearts as in the days of provocation" as he is dealing with God speaking to them and them listening. If we will or must come when God reveals then how can we harden our hearts that are broken?

The above 'assumption' is primarily based upon a systematic view point and not so much as to what the text or scriptures plainlsssssss

I can tell you from personal testimony that when I first 'knew' the truth I didn't respond in faith automatically, nor with brokeness. Fear was most definately there, Oh Yes. And I know many others who claim the same.

And for your statements on the term systematic theology- YEs I totally agree it is just another word that says this, Let the bible interperet itself.. who what, when, where, why, how's.. And every rellevent aspect of the biblwe to be in affect before concluding with a view. As you know its a fancy word for trusting in the Word.

No, that isn't what I said at all . I was saying be careful not to allow your theology to dicate what scripture 'should' be saying but let the scriptures dicate what your theology aught to properly be. Secondly, I was saying that context is established by the surrounding passages not the whole of scripture. Yes, the whole of scripture can be used to elaborate on many different truths but each and everyone of those are established by the context of the passages it was written in. And on the whole we can see them playing out not only in their particular piece, but also giving illumination to the whole. Without surrounding context you have nothing but proof-texts waiting to be pulled out of context.

 

[Allan]

Verse 16: "And I have other sheep (predestined) that are (currently) not of this fold. And I will bring them also and they "will" (no choice, while yes they are choosing God already made it to be done) listen to my voice." (chosen beforehand)

I agree with much of what you have here but I also disagree with the presupposition you are bringing into the text that does not warrent it. Mainly in your last sentence where you have them listening because they were chosen. Nothing in the text gives us this reasoning but is something that must be brought in or assumed before hand (Presupposition).

While I agree that it is only the chosen will listen and believe we do not have scripture stating they believe due to the fact they were chosen. There is a world of diffenence here and that difference is mostly added to the text to prove a position.

V 26: "You do not believe b/c you are not part of my flock." reverse it- If you believed then you would be part of my flock already. unbelief = not of flock, belief=of flock, no middle grounds, you cant be unbelieving and be of the flock.

No question. Agreed

If "you" decided to believe then there would be a time before you were saved that you believed. So therefore you must be saved first to believe. just to make it clear, if believing came before saving then youd be unsaved and believe = not of flock believing.

Umm no. We are NOT saved before we believe. Scripture states in no uncertain terms - believe and BE saved. Scripture is also very clear that we were under God's wrath (a position only the unsaved are in); Eph 2:3
We are Christ's 'flock' because God knows those who are/will be His. He knows them and thus knows they will heed His voice.

We know that pleasing God in the flesh isnt possible because He finds pleasure only in the trinity and He doesnt need our pleasing to be perfectly pleased, therefore we cannot please Him. If we outside of Him believed then we in flesh would be offering extra pleasure to be saved. If we believe in Spirit then He is believing for us. That would require the Holy Spirit inside which comes when salvation begins.

Again, not true. You are trying to make faith a work but it can not ever be so.
Jesus in John 6 when addressing those who sought Him after the feeding of the 5000 answered a specific question.

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Jesus did a play on their words. As Jews they sought to 'do' or work in some way to earn God's favor. Jesus stated this is the work that will allow you walk in God's favor - believe. This is eactly what Paul states in Romans 4:4-6

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Rom 4:5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Faith is not and can never be equated with works. Notice also the word I underlined in verse 5.

V29 "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and noone is able to snatch them out of my father's hand." in other words, when the Father Calls someone it is history from eternity past there are no negotiations, the Will is done.

No one is disputing the fact that the chosen are those believe and not only will but can only believe when God calls them.

But His context is that once saved your always gonna be saved (I believe). But as of right now it seems to me that if you say that then this can be concluded--
1-personal participation in belief leads to saying we can lose our salvation upon personal participation. This one says God gives choice and if we choose to gain life then we also will be allowed to fall away if we choose and lose it....

Umm.. again, no. This is not even close to what I am saying nor implying.
Personal participation does not lead to loosing salvation though there are some who do believe that. God makes the promise to change us so that we will have love for Him, cleave to Him, desire after Him (Deut 30:19-20) and that after choosing/believing so the loosing ones salvation is presupposition which ignores other scriptures that attest to this will not be the case.

2-while no participation leads to God gving and upholding our salvation which cannot be lost. This one says even though we are totally involved God reigns over us totally.

If you have no participation then my firiend - what is faith for? Why must you believe? Why does God not save anyone until they have believed as the scritpures state? The problem is simple that you are involved and God still reigns over us totally.

So therefore I conclude with saying that it doesnt make sense (unless you show me) that one can choose salvation then all of a sudden God gives them no choice to lose it? You can resolve this quickly by saying you take the first statement, hah.. Again sorry for dragging this on..

Please show where I ever stated a person can loose their salvation.

No problem with the dragging, It gives me something to do at work on the security night shift

 

[zrs6v4]

Sorry as well. I have been out due to an intencely painful inner ear ache.


I want to break your post down a bit if that is ok.
Your above is a true statement but it lacks qualification.
Let ask a couple of questions to 'flesh out' your statement.

1. How will they hear about sin, righteousness, and judgment?
....1a. IOW - who will reveal these things that are only known spiritually?
(this [a] question is holding to the knowledge that spiritual things can not found out or 'known' by men in and of themself - they must be revealed)

Is not the answer God? Do we not find in the scriptures that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals these things?(John 16:8) Do we also not find in the scriptures that God Himself is revealing these things (Rom 1:18-19)? .

Sorry about your ear and i hope you feel better now. Yes for sure God is the one who reveals what we cannot see, sin and such. no doubt

2. Why is God doing this?

Ok, Some more questions need to asked in order to properly understand this statement.

1. If it is God who reveals these spiritual truths to them then why must we 'assume' they did not understand? .

From what I see there are 2 ways to see the truth. In spirit and in flesh. The flesh is a blind way of seeing, you see and hear but do not understand with your heart. The spiritual way is seeing and hearing with your heart, understanding which is God's Spirit. Who is them? and give me an example. Jesus spoke to many, but few understood.

2. If something is 'revealed' is not the definition of the word - to make 'known' that which was not previously known?
...2a. Does not the very word 'know' or 'known' explicitly mean to understand?
(Definition #1 of "Know" - to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: ) .

This I cannot answer for sure, maybe give me 1 example of scripture to work with. It may depend on how it is used.

The 'assumption' that these men did not know is not something that comes from scripture but is part of the 'logical' argumentation. Remember that regeneration prior to faith/salvation is not something biblically expressed but is a actaully part of 'logical order' in the Reformed view.


This last part, again, is an assumption.
We find nothing in scripture that says when this happens you will or must come to Christ. But on the contrary we do find in scripture like where Paul states 'do not harden your hearts as in the days of provocation" as he is dealing with God speaking to them and them listening. If we will or must come when God reveals then how can we harden our hearts that are broken?

If our hearts are broken and soft, then God has softened them, but when they are hardened then God hardens them. We are the clay and God is the potter. If God seriously calls anyone to do any task, and we do not listen, that would be saying that God is not powerful enough to make us come to the calling or it would be saying we can change Gods will. Jonah for example or John the Baptist neither could run away, one gave God a hard time and one didnt, either way God will is always done. Or Israel as a whole, absolutely could not run away from God or escape His choosing them. Yes the Chosen people could fight, but God always brought her back in His will. Paul is also right in that for all we have to deal with, be open to God. This is not a deep statement. If I were talking with a person asking about Christ I would tell them the same thing. While in my heart I would be crying out to God to have mercy and save the person.

The above 'assumption' is primarily based upon a systematic view point and not so much as to what the text or scriptures plainlsssssss?

Assuming to makea point is wrong, but give me an example of where I am assuming. I am not saying your wrong, but just so I can see what your seeing in my statements.

I can tell you from personal testimony that when I first 'knew' the truth I didn't respond in faith automatically, nor with brokeness. Fear was most definately there, Oh Yes. And I know many others who claim the same. ?

I would have to say that being broken and helpless is probably important when you see and understand sin in your heart? Not arguing with your faith but as of right now I see it a lot in scripture. It is natural for a rebelling son who comes back to his father is going to be shattered, upset, helpless, and humble before the father. So what "Knowing" is to me is not just understanding in your head, but having a life changing impact on your heart. I knew with my head and was scared when I was 11 but a whole different kind of "knowing" happened at age 22. in my understanding, knowing produces- repentence, belief, trust, childlike behavior, humbleness, brokenness, fear,preserverance, beattitudes, real prayer, seeking, etc...

No, that isn't what I said at all . I was saying be careful not to allow your theology to dicate what scripture 'should' be saying but let the scriptures dicate what your theology aught to properly be. Secondly, I was saying that context is established by the surrounding passages not the whole of scripture. Yes, the whole of scripture can be used to elaborate on many different truths but each and everyone of those are established by the context of the passages it was written in. And on the whole we can see them playing out not only in their particular piece, but also giving illumination to the whole. Without surrounding context you have nothing but proof-texts waiting to be pulled out of context.

How do you know what scripture should be saying without theology? The answer is through the Holy Spirit. God teaches all of His children.. What I have found is that about 90% or better of my knowledge has come from my love and desire for personal bible study (knowing God), teaching(telling), and doing it(in my life). Most of what I find in theology amazingly meets with what I have understood. Not all of it, and yes I have been wrong a lot, but it all has seemed to work for good. This theology of predestination is not something I have read or been taught, but it hit me in a debate with an evangleist and it to me at this point is unavoidable to me. What estonishes me is that I read quotes about how others came to the understanding is a lot like I did. I agree, proper theology is scripture and scripture and scripture. This is why I ask what you do with certain things like John the Baptist, Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:11, etc...