Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

[zrs6v4]

I agree with much of what you have here but I also disagree with the presupposition you are bringing into the text that does not warrent it. Mainly in your last sentence where you have them listening because they were chosen. Nothing in the text gives us this reasoning but is something that must be brought in or assumed before hand (Presupposition).

While I agree that it is only the chosen will listen and believe we do not have scripture stating they believe due to the fact they were chosen. There is a world of diffenence here and that difference is mostly added to the text to prove a position.

If it is only the chosen that believe, then we can say that those who believe are chosen. Ill clear up my mistake below

No question. Agreed

Umm no. We are NOT saved before we believe. Scripture states in no uncertain terms - believe and BE saved. Scripture is also very clear that we were under God's wrath (a position only the unsaved are in); Eph 2:3
We are Christ's 'flock' because God knows those who are/will be His. He knows them and thus knows they will heed His voice.

I agree we are not saved before we believe, we are chosen (my mistake). The God reveals to our hearts truth and ourselves like a mirror. It happens somthing like this. Chosen by God (called, grace)-regeneration-heart change due to understanding- belief, trust, faith- saved by grace. This is the layout I have in mind when we are chosen we are called and always will do what God has called us to. though we were blind, now we can see, we once were lost, but now we are found... Jesus came to heal the blind and the sick, who were in need of a physician. He also was the author who made the people blind and sick to choose them to heal. So if Jesus never made the blind man blind, He couldnt have healed them, either way it was all God's doing from eternity past. We are no more than a clay pot which is unable to do a thing unless the potter does all of it..

Again, not true. You are trying to make faith a work but it can not ever be so.
Jesus in John 6 when addressing those who sought Him after the feeding of the 5000 answered a specific question.

Jesus did a play on their words. As Jews they sought to 'do' or work in some way to earn God's favor. Jesus stated this is the work that will allow you walk in God's favor - believe. This is eactly what Paul states in Romans 4:4-6

Faith is not and can never be equated with works. Notice also the word I underlined in verse 5.

No one is disputing the fact that the chosen are those believe and not only will but can only believe when God calls them..

Im not sure where you are arguing now.. I agree even if I was wrong that true faith isnt a work, but in a sense false faith would be?? Faith is a gift from God and this is the reason I believe grace is still before faith (God gave you faith when you didnt deserve to have it). we cant gain faith but it has to be given. faith is produced from hearing and understanding the Word (Holy Spirit) as I said previously would bring brokenness and is believing. But believing must be a gift also. If all of this begins with God then God is the one behind our believing. Even though we arent saved until we believe it was Gods plan and we even though unsaved are predestined to be saved. This means that we cannot reject a calling by God, which is where we must disagree? God cannot predestine someone to be saved through faith if they have the choice to reject, otherwise God's will would be messed up by a pot. Unless God has some crazy unimaginable way of predestining and giving choice at the same time. But again if God left th choice up to us, we would never choose Him as we see in the world today..

Umm.. again, no. This is not even close to what I am saying nor implying.
Personal participation does not lead to loosing salvation though there are some who do believe that. God makes the promise to change us so that we will have love for Him, cleave to Him, desire after Him (Deut 30:19-20) and that after choosing/believing so the loosing ones salvation is presupposition which ignores other scriptures that attest to this will not be the case...

I didnt mean that you were, but it seems to me where your view was heading. We didnt choose to be born, we didnt choose to be where we are at (ever), we dont choose our purpose, we dont choose our parents, we dont choose our death, we dont choose to run from God after he saves us, but the one thing we have a choice in is believing and not going to hell even though we deserve it? This is where I am taking it... God doesnt give us any choice in life other than where we spend eternity? Why all of a sudden after we choose to believe in God then we lose this ability to choose? Dont get me wrong I dont want to choose without God's strength by the way. :smilewinkgrin:

If you have no participation then my firiend - what is faith for? Why must you believe? Why does God not save anyone until they have believed as the scritpures state? The problem is simple that you are involved and God still reigns over us totally.

We absolutely have 100% participation but it all is guided by the grace of God. This is why I said before that while in this situation we think we have the choice, but really it is all God in our hearts although we dont even know it. Our free choice doesnt stand before the will of God. Why do some go for awhile and fall away and never return, because they didnt walk in Christ.
Those are awesome questions, I have no clue, hah. There are hundreds of questions that I dont get. Your solution is what I used to believe but there is no room for us to have any say so or choice in God's will, or it would be partly ours. We are to focus on ourselves and keeping inline and remaining humble and that is what the bible teaches, God takes care of His part everytime. The deeper truth is that I dont always teach is again that in all of our good deeds and choices God is the reason or we have fooled ourselves.

Please show where I ever stated a person can loose their salvation.

No problem with the dragging, It gives me something to do at work on the security night shift

You didnt, but what I was implying was that if God didnt totally reign over our free choice in being saved then why does he all of a sudden reign in our salvation. Unless we accidentally fell into belief against our nature? The choosing to be saved and not falling away seem to be contradictory seem to be sovereignty on one and choice on the other. If you can chose to believe then why cant you choose to fall away? I have an idea of what you will say, but it seems to me that God is going from giving you a choice then no choice.. you will say once born again then always upheld, but how then did you choose in the first place? I assumed you didnt agree with losing your salvation by the way :flower: .

The same basic question arises again, can we really reject God's authentic calling?
Yes we have a choice but God is behind the choice everytime just like He is for the rest of our lives into heaven. Im not saying he makes us make bad decisions but rather allows them to happen to reveal our need for Him and what we truly have been given in which we cant fathom.

 

[zrs6v4]

:jesus: :godisgood:

 

[Allan]

:jesus: :godisgood:

Z,
I'm gonna get back here, but I got caught up on another thread .

It will most likely be tomorrow night.

PS.. you don't mind if I call you "Z" do you?

 

[zrs6v4]

Z,
I'm gonna get back here, but I got caught up on another thread .

It will most likely be tomorrow night.

PS.. you don't mind if I call you "Z" do you?

You are fine, no rush, and Z is cool with me or Zach.

 

[Allan]

Sorry about your ear and i hope you feel better now. Yes for sure God is the one who reveals what we cannot see, sin and such. no doubt

Ok, let us keep this in mind as we continue on. That God reveals what we do not know, such as sin, ect...

From what I see there are 2 ways to see the truth. In spirit and in flesh. The flesh is a blind way of seeing, you see and hear but do not understand with your heart. The spiritual way is seeing and hearing with your heart, understanding which is God's Spirit. Who is them? and give me an example. Jesus spoke to many, but few understood.

First, 'them' is all men everywhere whom God has revealed any spiritual truth.

Secondly, No man apart from God's revealing knows anything that is spiritual.
Thus to know any spiritual truth is to understand that which God has revealed.
Now, to know or understand something in and of itself is a neutral thing - neither good nor evil. However, typically when scripture uses the term understanding it is used in the positive aspect or in conjuction with an action toward that which is good. Those without understanding are those who DO know the truth but have refused it thus their understanding is used in a negitive aspect in conjuction with that is opposite.

In other words - either it refers to the knowledge of man apart from God (having no understanding) or it refers the positive action one did regarding the knowledge revealed by God.

However, to presume that a person has knowledge of spiritual things like the Godhead, sin, righteousness (spiritual), Judgment to come but that they do not understand it (grasp it's meaning) is to say that God has failed in His revelation of the truth. And since we know He did not but that He is God then His revealing is perfect regarding the giving of knowledge so that they are without excuse because they DO grasp His truth revealed. (Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:1-12; Prov 1:21-33; Eze 33 are some good starters)

This I cannot answer for sure, maybe give me 1 example of scripture to work with. It may depend on how it is used.

See above verses.

If our hearts are broken and soft, then God has softened them, but when they are hardened then God hardens them. We are the clay and God is the potter. If God seriously calls anyone to do any task, and we do not listen, that would be saying that God is not powerful enough to make us come to the calling or it would be saying we can change Gods will.

Hmmm.. God only hardens after man has rejected Him. God hardened Pharoahs hearts after scripture says Pharoah hardened it first. Scripture even tells us exactly 'when' God hardens Pharoahs heart which was afterward. God hardened Israel as well but only after Israels rebellion. 2 Thes 2:10-12 as well as Rom 1tells us in no uncertain terms that God only gives them up or makes them believe the lie (hardening) is AFTER they have rejected His truths which He has revealed.

Also if God calls to people it is always seriously. However God does not 'make' us come and even those of the Reformed view agree. We come willingly but not everyone will always come when God calls. (Parable of the Marriage Feast another good example).

No one says that God is not powerful enough. However God has chosen to do things a certain way and so who am I to say "God if you don't do it this way then you aren't sovereign enough to be God".

Israel as a whole, absolutely could not run away from God or escape His choosing them.

Actaully, Israel has been set aside due to their unbelief. Set aside but not cast away. Rom 11

give me an example of where I am assuming. I am not saying your wrong, but just so I can see what your seeing in my statements.

This statement you made is an assumption that this always happens:
"This revelation of truth brings forth, brokenness, fear, the real revelation of sin upon ones life, the great need of a savior, hunger for wanting to see and understand depths, and much more.... "
(aside from the 'real revelation of sin' because if God reveals sin to a person it is a 'real revelation of sin')

It is natural for a rebelling son who comes back to his father is going to be shattered, upset, helpless, and humble before the father.

True, but were are not sons prior to the excersizing of faith. We were children of wrath not of God.

So what "Knowing" is to me is not just understanding in your head, but having a life changing impact on your heart. I knew with my head and was scared when I was 11 but a whole different kind of "knowing" happened at age 22.

Understanding is merely the ability to grasp the concept of what is being given.
Knowing with regard to change is specifically based upon the action of faith which took 'understanding' from a neutral position of just knoweldge to the point of choosing to do something with it - believe or reject.

in my understanding, knowing produces- repentence, belief, trust, childlike behavior, humbleness, brokenness, fear,preserverance, beattitudes, real prayer, seeking, etc...

Then if that were the case we would have quite a bit of problem with Rom 1:18-32 as well as many other passages.

How do you know what scripture should be saying without theology?

Easy! Scripture simply says it. Theology takes them and tries to reason them out in a system that makes sense to us. We do not and should not presume that without theology one can not understand scripture or know what it is saying. In this you have theology telling scripture what it is to be saying. When the fact is scripture should dictate what theology is teaching. Theology is NOT scripture nor is scripture derived from theology but the opposite.

What I have found is that about 90% or better of my knowledge has come from my love and desire for personal bible study (knowing God), teaching(telling), and doing it(in my life). Most of what I find in theology amazingly meets with what I have understood. Not all of it, and yes I have been wrong a lot, but it all has seemed to work for good. This theology of predestination is not something I have read or been taught, but it hit me in a debate with an evangleist and it to me at this point is unavoidable to me. What estonishes me is that I read quotes about how others came to the understanding is a lot like I did. I agree, proper theology is scripture and scripture and scripture.

I agree, so what do you say about those who are just as prayerful and studious in the Word as you and come to a slightly different conclusion?

I agree that predestination is something that can not be denied for the scripture plainly make the case for it. The question really shouldn't be about is there predestination or not but what does predestination mean. The only time it is used in scripture is speaking about God determining/predestinating believers to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

This is why I ask what you do with certain things like John the Baptist, Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:11, etc...

You are making the assumption that John had no choice in the matter. This is incorrect. John did have a choice and he chose to. That does not negate that God intended him to be such. Let us not forget about the responsibility of man.


Exodus 33:19 does not imply that God selects some and not others but says that His grace and mercy are His to dispense at His pleasure to whom He chooses. Not that He only gives to some for He gives Him mercy even upon the heathen and ungodly. IOW - Man does not earn it nor merits it thus he can not demand it of God.

Rom 9:11 - is election to purpose NOT salvation. Chapter in context is about being elected to be God's nation or people. That seed of promise is directly related to prophecy that Abraham will have a son and through him God would make Himself a people. But Ishmael was born first. So the 'seed' isn't of the flesh (through whom should rightly be Ishmael) but of promise - that is Issac. Thus the election here is about purpose not salvation. Paul speaks of election regarding salvation in Rom 11 and specifically refers to it as the "election of grace".

 

[Allan]

We are no more than a clay pot which is unable to do a thing unless the potter does all of it..

The implication of your statement above, I believe, extend to avenues that you wouldn't agree with. I think there is much more of scripture which speaks quite a bit to the contrary. Does God make people do evil things? Do you believe that God believes for you?

While I agree that without God nothing will be that is to be but let us not forget the responsibility of man.

Faith is a gift from God and this is the reason I believe grace is still before faith (God gave you faith when you didnt deserve to have it).

I agree that grace is before faith, no question. However we will disagree about God giving people faith. Faith is either a verb (action) or it is a noun, and when used as a noun it refers to either 'the faith' relating to or meaning Christ Jesus or 'the faith' meaning those beliefs all believers hold. It is NOT spoken of as some nebulous aspect imparted to a person.

we cant gain faith but it has to be given. faith is produced from hearing and understanding the Word (Holy Spirit)

Let me state this. If you are meaning that God must given man some kind of special faith in order to use then I disagree.

If what you mean by 'give' is that without God revealing truth they would never know what is truth and thus would never use their faith in a saving way (thus in a sense God gave it to them) then I agree.

But believing must be a gift also.

Please identify the scripture or scriptures you got this view from.

If all of this begins with God then God is the one behind our believing.

I don't disagree here. But again God is behind our believing but He is not the one who believes - we are.

Even though we arent saved until we believe it was Gods plan and we even though unsaved are predestined to be saved.

I agree, but again be careful with the tossing of the word predestined around. Scritpurally it is not used specifically used when relating to salvation but the work of conforming us to Christ. The technical usage can be used to explian God choosing and that it must come to pass. Therefore be sure to differentiate that when talking to most people. It keeps them from misunderstanding you and keeps them from asking you give them a verse that says we are predetermined to salvation. Semantics I know but it can get rather nit-picky after a while.

This means that we cannot reject a calling by God, which is where we must disagree?

No, not here necessarily. We are that all those whom God knew before hand (before creation) will not only be called but answer in a positive way. We just differ that God calls all men as Jesus declared (I, if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself; and - He is the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world). It is those who are not foreknown that reject His calling.

God cannot predestine someone to be saved through faith if they have the choice to reject, otherwise God's will would be messed up by a pot.

Says who? Are you saying that God in His infinate wisdom and knowledge could not know what all men everywhere would choose He if gave them the choice? God can know full well all things that He intends and what man will choose and predestine all things still. The determining is simply stating this is how it will be and nothing more.

Unless God has some crazy unimaginable way of predestining and giving choice at the same time. But again if God left th choice up to us, we would never choose Him as we see in the world today..

Be careful trying to imaigine that you understand how and what God thinks. His thoughts are higher than yours or mine or both together. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is crazy nor unimaginable except to our finite minds. The last sentence is simply not true. If God left us to ourselves to know Him and Jesus then I would agree. But God has not left us to ourselves and God Himself says to choose. The apostle Paul tells us that when we hear His voice do not harden our hearts. Why would Paul under the guidenance of the Holy Spirit write that if we had no choice?

We didnt choose to be born

True

we didnt choose to be where we are at (ever),

Wrong. But mostly because I believe you have the wrong understanding of mans responsiblity. I would suggest - if I may humbly do so - to chech out what Spurgeon says on Mans Responsiblity.

we dont choose our purpose,

True

we dont choose our parents

True if you biological

we dont choose to run from God after he saves us,

Umm. Yes you can and some do. That is why God correction is called 'discipline' or chastening. We did something contrary to what God desired. Not what God knew would happen but what He desired you 'to do' in the first place.

but the one thing we have a choice in is believing and not going to hell even though we deserve it?

That is what God says. God doesn't save us because we deserve it. He does it because He has chosen to save those who believe. Thus believing of itself will not stop you from going to hell but God's merciful promise of what He will do if we will believe is.

This is where I am taking it... God doesnt give us any choice in life other than where we spend eternity?

Again, not a true argument. We do have choices but the only one that really matters regarding life and death is to believe that which God has revealed or reject it. We have no choices except that God has given us. Thus I believe in a limited will.

Why all of a sudden after we choose to believe in God then we lose this ability to choose?

Who says this. Scripture doesn't!

We absolutely have 100% participation but it all is guided by the grace of God. This is why I said before that while in this situation we think we have the choice, but really it is all God in our hearts although we dont even know it.

But scripture never makes any such declaration. Faith precedes regeneration according to scripture. Regeneration is a word that encompasses many different aspects of the same thing. Those aspects are being made righteous, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus alive in Christ. Yet ALL of these scripture states come about through the excercising of faith. Thus faith precedes regeneration scripturally. The only time you will ever see it the other way is due to a 'logical' argument by those of the Reformed view.

Our free choice doesnt stand before the will of God.

And yet I find in scripture saying just the opposite.

Your solution is what I used to believe but there is no room for us to have any say so or choice in God's will, or it would be partly ours. We are to focus on ourselves and keeping inline and remaining humble and that is what the bible teaches, God takes care of His part everytime.

You just contradicted yourself
If there is no room for you to choose then you can not focus to do anything. You either are going to or you are not. You can not remain humble unless you 'choose' to do so. Thus man's responsiblity sneaks in again

The choosing to be saved...

You don't choose to be saved but to believe.

If you can chose to believe then why cant you choose to fall away?

Because of the promises of God and part of those promises is to change me so that I will love Him and desire to cleave to Him. IOW - not to be seperated from Him.

I have an idea of what you will say, but it seems to me that God is going from giving you a choice then no choice.. you will say once born again then always upheld, but how then did you choose in the first place? I assumed you didnt agree with losing your salvation by the way :flower: .

Nope,not my answer. I chose because God not only gave it to me but allowed me to choose to believe Him.

I have studied Calvinism for nearly 7 years or so and almost took it up but do not through a great deal of prayer and study. For me there were to many inconsistenancies between the theology and the scriptures and the Lord led me away from it. That does not mean the Lord is not leading you toward it. The difference between your view and mine is not what is the immutable truths but merely the mechanics of how those truths operate and that only regarding soterology (salvation). So I would say let us take a break from this because it will definately start to get extremely lengthly here are you begin asking me more questions and I will answer them and vise versa. I don't mind possibly carrying this on through PM (private messages) because then I can take a little more time and ease and keep getting back to shorter aspects. However, if you want to know a little more about some of the non-cals views click on my name and then under my picture click on Threads I have started. They range from the calling, to faith, to regeneration and faith. I have had quite a bit fun and appreciate the discussion and commend you on your knowledge.

Hold fast that which you believe but do not hold on so hard that God has a hard time getting through to you.

 

[Rippon]

ALL Scripture Is From The TNIV

However, to presume that a person has knowledge of spiritual things like the Godhead, sin, righteousness (spiritual), Judgment to come but that they do not understand it (grasp it's meaning) is to say that God has failed in His revelation of the truth. And since we know He did not but that He is God then His revealing is perfect regarding the giving of knowledge so that they are without excuse because they DO grasp His truth revealed. (Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:1-12; Prov 1:21-33; Eze 33 are some good starters)

Are you trying to say that the folks in Romans 1:18-32 knew of the Godhead(Trinity)?! How do you draw this conclusion?The Scripture says they knew God -- but this kind of sacred knowlege they were not privy to.

Hmmm.. God only hardens after man has rejected Him. God hardened Pharoahs hearts after scripture says Pharoah hardened it first. Scripture even tells us exactly 'when' God hardens Pharoahs heart which was afterward.

No.As I have told you before -- God first hardened Pharoah's heart way back in Exodus 4:21 -- long before Scripture says that Pharoah hardened his own heart

However God has chosen to do things a certain way and so who am I to say "God if you don't do it this way then you aren't sovereign enough to be God".

That's one thing I can agree with.Make sure you always remember that.

I agree that predestination is something that can not be denied for the scripture plainly make the case for it. The question really shouldn't be about is there predestination or not but what does predestination mean. The only time it is used in scripture is speaking about God determining/predestinating believers to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

No.See 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14:But we ought always to thank God for you brothers and sisters loved by the Lord,because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief of the truth.He called you to this through our gospel,that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or go to 2 Timothy 1:9: who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of hos own purpose and grace.This grace was given us inn Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Or meditate upon Ephesians 1:11-14 : In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,in order that we,who were the first to put our hope in Christ,might be for the praise of his glory.And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth,the gospel of your salvation.When you believed,you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of his glory.

Predestination is certainly toward salvation of the ones He elected in eternity past.

 

[Rippon]

I agree, but again be careful with the tossing of the word predestined around. Scritpurally [sic]it is not used specifically used [sic]when relating to salvation but the work of conforming us to Christ. The technical usage can be used to explian [sic]God choosing and that it must come to pass. Therefore be sure to differentiate that when talking to most people. It keeps them from misunderstanding you and keeps them from asking you give them a verse that says we are predetermined to salvation. Semantics I know but it can get rather nit-picky after a while.

Predestination is toward salvation.To deny that is to deny Scripture.

Faith precedes regeneration according to scripture.

You have that backwards.

I have studied Calvinism for nearly 7 years or so and almost took it up but do not through a great deal of prayer and study.

Actually you said that about two years ago.

For me there were to many inconsistenancies[sic] between the theology and the scriptures and the Lord led me away from it.

The Lord does not lead a believer away from His precious truths!

 

[Allan]

Are you trying to say that the folks in Romans 1:18-32 knew of the Godhead(Trinity)?! How do you draw this conclusion?The Scripture says they knew God -- but this kind of sacred knowlege they were not privy to.

Did I make any mention about the 'Trinity'?
I was merely quoting the KJV on that part, but it is simply another way of sayin 'divine nature'.

No.As I have told you before -- God first hardened Pharoah's heart way back in Exodus 4:21 -- long before Scripture says that Pharoah hardened his own heart

We should let scripture tell us rather than you :thumbs:

Exd 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

So God had not yet done so, but 'will'.
The very context here is simply that in order for Moses to perform all those wonders God must harden Pharoahs heart. However it does NOT say that God hardened it first only that God will harden it so that Pharoah will not allow them to go in the midst of the wonders God will bring. Now WHEN does scritpure state God steps in specifically.

Exd 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exd 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exd 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart [is] hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Please note that this is AFTER Pharoah has already to Moses he will not let God's people go back in chapters 5. He not only said no but increased their burdens in great magnitude.

That's one thing I can agree with.Make sure you always remember that.

I have always taught it.

No.See 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14:But we ought always to thank God for you brothers and sisters loved by the Lord,because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief of the truth.He called you to this through our gospel,that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or go to 2 Timothy 1:9: who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of hos own purpose and grace.This grace was given us inn Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Or meditate upon Ephesians 1:11-14 : In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,in order that we,who were the first to put our hope in Christ,might be for the praise of his glory.And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth,the gospel of your salvation.When you believed,you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of his glory.

Predestination is certainly toward salvation of the ones He elected in eternity past.

You proved my point exactly. Predestination is never used in any of these but where it is used it speaks specifically about being conformed to His Son's image.

I was illistrating that to say the scripture say we are predestined to salvation is to set ones self up for a fall in trying to find the wording. THAT was my point. Thus differentiate between the scriptures saying it 'specifically' verses saying it in other forms.

 

[Allan]

Predestination is toward salvation.To deny that is to deny Scripture.

The 'word' predestination or predestinate is never used to describe it as such and THAT was my point.

You have that backwards.

Opinions vary.

Actually you said that about two years ago.

Yes, and it was back then that I stopped delving for what isn't there.
I know they believe and understand their arguments but I don't need to keep at them when I see to many issues with it.

The Lord does not lead a believer away from His precious truths!

I agree :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Did I make any mention about the 'Trinity'?
I was merely quoting the KJV on that part, but it is simply another way of sayin 'divine nature'.

The word "Godhead" = Trinity.That's pretty basic stuff.But for you to insist that those who have never heard the gospel of Christ in Romans 1:18-32 would know about the Godhead -- it is simply not supported by the Scriptures.

However it does NOT say that God hardened it first only that God will harden it so that Pharoah{sic} [will not allow them to go in the midst of the wonders God will bring.](What does that mean?) Now WHEN does scritpure {sic}state God steps in specifically.

Again,the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is in Ex.4:21 wherein God does the hardening.

I was illistrating{sic} that to say the scripture say we are predestined to salvation is to set ones self up for a fall in trying to find the wording. THAT was my point. Thus differentiate between the scriptures saying it 'specifically' verses {sic}saying it in other forms.

Predestination is toward salvation in the Scriptures.Election is toward salvation.Calling is toward salvation.Drawing is toward salvation.Many other cognate words are used in the Bible to denote God's purpose in bringing His own to Himself.

 

[Rippon]

Let me state this. If you are meaning that God must given man some kind of special faith in order to use then I disagree.

Your words in clarified form: If you mean that God must give people some kind of special faith in order to believe -- then I disagree.

God most certainly gives a special faith to believe -- nobody would believe otherwise.

...we are predetermined to salvation.

AMEN! It's the same as destined,predestined,ordained or appointed for salvation as in Acts 13:48.

Says who? Are you saying that God in His infinate {sic}wisdom and knowledge could not know what all men everywhere would choose He if gave them the choice? God can know full well all things that He intends and what man will choose and predestine all things still. The determining is simply stating this is how it will be and nothing more.

Here you are going against your own stated principles.

In addition,all people would not "choose"God if given a choice.No one would choose.You are not being biblical.

Be careful trying to imaigine {sic}that you understand how and what God thinks.

But you have done exactly that in the previous block of your words which I quoted.

The only time you will ever see it the other way is due to a 'logical' argument by those of the Reformed view.

No,we should not be logical.Those evil Reformed folks are too logical.But the non-Reformed are much better! They are illogical and proud of it.[Sarcastic remarks off now.]

 

[Rippon]

Yes, and it was back then that I stopped delving for what isn't there.
I know they believe and understand their arguments but I don't need to keep at them when I see to {sic}many issues with it.

You had said :'I have studied..."Did you mean :"I had studied?

 

[Allan]

The word "Godhead" = Trinity. That's pretty basic stuff. But for you to insist that those who have never heard the gospel of Christ in Romans 1:18-32 would know about the Godhead -- it is simply not supported by the Scriptures.

To 'presume' Godhead means 'trinity' at all times is wrong specifically when dealing with a tranlation. I was 'quoting' a translation and I elaborated on what it means (divine nature) because you have trouble understanding. Yes, it IS in scripture. It might not be something you agree with but it is in scripture.
See these all use the phrase 'Godhead':

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
© Info: - King James Version 1769 Info

NKJV - Rom 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

YLT - for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
(Young's Literal Translation)

WEB - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(The Websters Bible)

The others use divine nature or divinity. They mean the the same things when one understands that the useage of Godhead is not always used to mean Trinity.

Again,the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is in Ex.4:21 wherein God does the hardening.

No said it wasn't the first time it was spoken of. But God didn't do it then and scripture states this. It says He will do it not that He has done it. And scripture tells us 'exactly' when He does it too. It was after Pharoah had already told Moses No, I will not let your people go and then increased extrensively their burdens.

 

[Allan]

God most certainly gives a special faith to believe -- nobody would believe otherwise.

One can believe whatever they wish.

Here you are going against your own stated principles

Nope

In addition,all people would not "choose"God if given a choice.No one would choose.You are not being biblical.

You mean I not being Rippon, but yes, I'm being biblical.
I do agree however that a man apart from the influence and grace of God will never choose God. That is why God by grace mercifully reveals truth to all men via the Holy Spirit and Christ. IOW - God works in the heart and life of all men through various means and ways but not all men will receive Him.

But you have done exactly that in the previous block of your words which I quoted.

You seriously need a few leasons in comprehension. I did not say He does this nor that He does it this way. I asked:

Are you saying that God in His infinate {sic}wisdom and knowledge could not know what all men everywhere would choose He if gave them the choice?

This is not saying God does it this way specifically but was asking you that if God chose to do it this way would He not know the choices of all men at all times?

No,we should not be logical.Those evil Reformed folks are too logical.But the non-Reformed are much better! They are illogical and proud of it.[Sarcastic remarks off now.]

Logic that has no basis in scripture is not logic. Reformers even admit their understanding of regeneration preceding faith is not something that is specificly stated in scripture but that it is a 'logical' order presumed for their theological view.

 

[zrs6v4]

Allen I am going to try an pick a few of these and try to shorten in down to some main points.

Also if God calls to people it is always seriously. However God does not 'make' us come and even those of the Reformed view agree. We come willingly but not everyone will always come when God calls. (Parable of the Marriage Feast another good example).

I agree as well. the calling is irresistable is basically what Im saying. It would be like rejecting a million free dollars or something.

Actaully, Israel has been set aside due to their unbelief. Set aside but not cast away. Rom 11

Am I wrong by saying that God set us aside in the same way as He did Israel? compare Israle as a whole to us individually

This statement you made is an assumption that this always happens:
"This revelation of truth brings forth, brokenness, fear, the real revelation of sin upon ones life, the great need of a savior, hunger for wanting to see and understand depths, and much more.... "
(aside from the 'real revelation of sin' because if God reveals sin to a person it is a 'real revelation of sin')

Not at all.

I agree, so what do you say about those who are just as prayerful and studious in the Word as you and come to a slightly different conclusion?)

There's 1 answer, no answer, or maybe they are both right...

I agree that predestination is something that can not be denied for the scripture plainly make the case for it. The question really shouldn't be about is there predestination or not but what does predestination mean. The only time it is used in scripture is speaking about God determining/predestinating believers to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

What does it mean to be holy, blameless, adopted, redeemed?

You are making the assumption that John had no choice in the matter. This is incorrect. John did have a choice and he chose to. That does not negate that God intended him to be such. Let us not forget about the responsibility of man.

You are assuming I am assuming, but Im not :laugh: .
Luke 1:15- "for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mothers womb." please spend time on this one, this is a big one to me... If you can explain how John wasnt born with the Holy Spirit then that would be great.

 

[Allan]

Allen I am going to try an pick a few of these and try to shorten in down to some main points.

No Prob Z. (a little funny for ya. I had a friend in HS that's name was Zack and we all called him "Z" or Z-man, funny how small the world is huh)

I agree as well. the calling is irresistable is basically what Im saying. It would be like rejecting a million free dollars or something.

That is one way to look at it (irresistable).
No, it is not like rejecting 1 million dollars, but more like rejecting whether or not there actaully IS a million dollars. I can show you all the proof in the world that it is there and 'could' be yours but unless you are willing to accept what I say is truth then you will believe what you want to about it.

Am I wrong by saying that God set us aside in the same way as He did Israel? compare Israle as a whole to us individually

Yes I believe scripturally you are wrong in that aspect. God has not set us (believers) aside nor will He ever. He has set aside the people (nation) whom He foreknew for a time but will bring them back to Himself as Paul says.

There's 1 answer, no answer, or maybe they are both right...

A wise answer or they are both partially right. In any case the has lead many God fearing men into both aspects and we have been blessed due to His graciousness toward us by them.

What does it mean to be holy, blameless, adopted, redeemed?

I was simply saying that word 'predestined' is sort of a loaded theological word or better a word that tends to have some baggage that must be explained so others know what you mean. So if you were saying "scripture says we are predestined to salvation" is setting yourself up to be challenged, in that the word "predestined" is not used to specifically say 'to salvation'.

Beyond that I understand what you were saying and also I agree that God has predestined us to salvation . What I said seems to have brought some confusion but I was just giving you a heads up for future reference that some people will be nit-picky about what you type knowing full well you actually mean but like to try to twist what you say. For an example just look at Rippons responces to me.

You are assuming I am assuming, but Im not :laugh: .
Luke 1:15- "for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mothers womb." please spend time on this one, this is a big one to me... If you can explain how John wasnt born with the Holy Spirit then that would be great.

John the Baptist was not saved before he was born. I know some Reformers and their work say this in great error and they are wrong. No man is saved apart from faith. Salvation is 'by faith' and no child can excersize faith and is why even in the OT when Israel was under judgment to wander the desert for 40 years those under the age of 21 (the age where by came into service and had a voice in community) were not condemned due to unbelief and is why they were allowed into the Promised land with Joshua.

The Spirit of the Lord was and is known in the OT to come upon people. But it did not remain. We see this repeatedly in the OT. The Spirit coming upon the unborn child was apparently a sign to Elizabeth that the child in her cousins womb was indeed the promised one and we see this played out in her responce to the baby's jump.

 

[zrs6v4]

The implication of your statement above, I believe, extend to avenues that you wouldn't agree with. I think there is much more of scripture which speaks quite a bit to the contrary. Does God make people do evil things? Do you believe that God believes for you?

I dont mean we are a clay pot, but when comparing the potter to the pot there is much resemblance to our creature/creator relationship. God allows evil, but has no hand on it. No, I believe God blesses those with the ability to believe which always means they are saved.

Let me state this. If you are meaning that God must given man some kind of special faith in order to use then I disagree.

Yes special saving faith in Christ, which not everyone has.

If what you mean by 'give' is that without God revealing truth they would never know what is truth and thus would never use their faith in a saving way (thus in a sense God gave it to them) then I agree.

yes but again we disagree on being able to reject this special gift which is given for a purpose according to God's Will

I don't disagree here. But again God is behind our believing but He is not the one who believes - we are.

Yes we do believe and when God is behind it then we dont reject, unless God isnt behind it, that is limiting God's power to guide. Its like saying God is behind some stronger than others so some reject and some accept. It doesnt make sense

No, not here necessarily. We are that all those whom God knew before hand (before creation) will not only be called but answer in a positive way. We just differ that God calls all men as Jesus declared (I, if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself; and - He is the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world). It is those who are not foreknown that reject His calling.

Here you are saying that God Willed everything according to those who made "positive" decisions. His will was created around our decisions which He foreknew? I would have to look at "Jesus' drawing all men to Himself". (John 12:32) it seems to me He will at the judgment (v31). It seems as if it would consider universalism with my view, unless it is misunderstood. I admit I may be wrong but Ill look into. from the first glance it does support your view...

Says who? Are you saying that God in His infinate wisdom and knowledge could not know what all men everywhere would choose He if gave them the choice? God can know full well all things that He intends and what man will choose and predestine all things still. The determining is simply stating this is how it will be and nothing more..

Like I said, this is if God made the Will based on our choices.

Be careful trying to imaigine that you understand how and what God thinks. His thoughts are higher than yours or mine or both together. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is crazy nor unimaginable except to our finite minds. The last sentence is simply not true. If God left us to ourselves to know Him and Jesus then I would agree. But God has not left us to ourselves and God Himself says to choose. The apostle Paul tells us that when we hear His voice do not harden our hearts. Why would Paul under the guidenance of the Holy Spirit write that if we had no choice?

Dont worry I dont even begin to think like that. I taught a class yesterday and said imagine an infinitely big ocean infinitely deep and we are floating in it. What we see and know of God is just like if we looked down in this infinite ocean, which we may only see 20ft deep... I never said we arent to focus on our choice and teach people to choose good. What I did say is that while we are making these godly decisions God is the invisible One behind the scenes. I never would tell someone they didnt have a choice. They do. But. I know inside that unless God wills it, then it wont be done and if He does, it will be done. I accept either way He chooses.

Wrong. But mostly because I believe you have the wrong understanding of mans responsiblity. I would suggest - if I may humbly do so - to chech out what Spurgeon says on Mans Responsiblity.

Im afraid to say I understand (b/c truly Im sure I dont), but in this discussion it obviously may come across as Hyper-Calvanism. I absolutely would say man has 100% responsibilty for His actions whether sin or not. Righteousness for man is out of the question unless in Spirit. This is a perfect example of our desperation for God and helplessness. Truly like I said before we deserve to die in our sin and get hell which would be fair (justice, which God has the right to). It is unfair that God sent His Son for us to give us an unfair redemption. So yes we are all stuck in a trap of sin which we are fully responsible for. Our decisions= always bad, but by the grace of God we are rich and can, in Spirit, do good. We are responsible for doing all the bible commands as well, and in Christ we want to because we love and want to honor God. when talking responsibilty forget predestination, it leads misunderstanding easily. We can be accused of blaming God or slacking out on our responsibility. To me Calvanism if done right, is the having on your heart on your desperate need of God, while living day by day in choice.

Umm. Yes you can and some do. That is why God correction is called 'discipline' or chastening. We did something contrary to what God desired. Not what God knew would happen but what He desired you 'to do' in the first place.

Yes in this case, to the depth of God's will, God has it planned from the creation of all the good and bad each will do. We simply make all of these decisions, when they are good God has led us by Spirit, and when bad God was not involved and let us make our own decisions. This in our walk again teaches us about Gods attributes, our sinfulness, and our great need. God always desires good and and for us he allows evil to happen for good as I illustrated above. all works for good for us, this is our assurance. No matter where we go or what happens God is always there working all things for good. Even if it is the greatest disaster like Job had, God uses it for good.

You just contradicted yourself
If there is no room for you to choose then you can not focus to do anything. You either are going to or you are not. You can not remain humble unless you 'choose' to do so. Thus man's responsiblity sneaks in again ..

I have explained this plenty above I think. I believe the spirit of God leads to a proper humbleness which is usually brought through discipline and suffering in short sin as God takes his hand off of us to show us our need and ourselves. (David for example). We always are choosing as I have listed above, but our choices which are good are driven by the Holy Spirit, but when He takes His hand off of the wheel we crash and cry out b/c blind people cant drive. I just want to say that God has humbled me a lot, and when I try to humble myself it never works, its a fake act of trying to persuade God with some kind of words or something to alter His choices towards me. I hate being humbled, it doesnt feel good, although I love it at the same time because I am in the right with God at the time. I, like Israel, am in a constant sanctifying cycle. While with all of this on mind, I still know I have full responsibilty to obey God which also brings fear because it is a very serious thing. I know Ill never obey God without His constant mercy He gives which I am undeserving with my ways as hard as I try.

Nope,not my answer. I chose because God not only gave it to me but allowed me to choose to believe Him..

Sounds like Calvanism, this is my point we cant believe unless God enables us to do so. I know you didnt mean it like this, but I had to say it

I have studied Calvinism for nearly 7 years or so and almost took it up but do not through a great deal of prayer and study. For me there were to many inconsistenancies between the theology and the scriptures and the Lord led me away from it. That does not mean the Lord is not leading you toward it. The difference between your view and mine is not what is the immutable truths but merely the mechanics of how those truths operate and that only regarding soterology (salvation). So I would say let us take a break from this because it will definately start to get extremely lengthly here are you begin asking me more questions and I will answer them and vise versa. I don't mind possibly carrying this on through PM (private messages) because then I can take a little more time and ease and keep getting back to shorter aspects. However, if you want to know a little more about some of the non-cals views click on my name and then under my picture click on Threads I have started. They range from the calling, to faith, to regeneration and faith. I have had quite a bit fun and appreciate the discussion and commend you on your knowledge.

I do appreciate it, and sorry i already went through and relied everything :laugh: . dont feel pressured into replying back. Thanks for the good clean debate

Hold fast that which you believe but do not hold on so hard that God has a hard time getting through to you.

I dont think God will have a hard time getting through to me if He chooses to. The only thing that may happen is fighting a losing battle if I'm fighting God on something (Jonah/Jacob). God always gets His way :tonofbricks:

 

[Allan]

I dont mean we are a clay pot, but when comparing the potter to the pot there is much resemblance to our creature/creator relationship. God allows evil, but has no hand on it.

Understood. The clay and potter analogy used by some Cals is that we 'are' clay pots made specifically to do just what we do. So made for the purpose of life and others for the purpose of damnation.

Yes special saving faith in Christ, which not everyone has.

Here we will disagree. Go here to read my thread on "A couple of odd statements about faith". It turned out quite interesting. I'm giving you this just to show you better what I am refering to when I talk about faith and the nature of it.

yes but again we disagree on being able to reject this special gift which is given for a purpose according to God's Will

IF God gave us a special type of faith, then I would by necessity have to agree with you. But you made a statement about the 'purpose of God's will' so I will change that around just a bit, if I may, and ask - What is the purpose of God's will to reveal truth to those whom He has not chosen to salvation? What purpose is there to show them truth that He will not allow them to receive?

Yes we do believe and when God is behind it then we dont reject, unless God isnt behind it, that is limiting God's power to guide. Its like saying God is behind some stronger than others so some reject and some accept. It doesnt make sense

I can understand why, your above doesn't make sense to me either :laugh:
God was behind bringing Israel to the Promised Land but they did not go in due to unbelief. When we disobey God we did so with God leading us to do one thing and we rejected it. Are you saying that God was leading us and then (for some reason) decided to remove His hand? That is not limiting His power but the illistration of man responsibility. However it is assumption that we reject only if God isn't behind it.

When I say 'assumption' what I am meaning is there is no scriptural passages which make a particular claim. Not so much that you are making up an assumtion but that you resoluteness on some issues are more of a 'logical' reasoning based upon a theological view more so than scriptural evidence.

I do agree that what God intends to take place will but on the same coin it is in conjunction with man's willing obedience or rebellion. I did not say because of it but in conjunction with it.

I must ask this question to get your thoughts on the matter:
2 Thes 2:10-12 say that these people rejected the truth that they might be saved. And it was for this cause/reason (rejection of the truth) that they might be damned who believed not the truth. IOW- They were condemned because they did not believe the truth God revealed to them, and as says the scripture, "that they might be saved." or another way it is transalted "and so be saved".

Here you are saying that God Willed everything according to those who made "positive" decisions.

No, that is not what I was saying. I said:

..all those whom God knew before hand (before creation) will not only be called but answer in a positive way

This is not the same as God willing everything according to who make positive decisions. What I said simply put is that those whom God foreknew are the same one who will believe. THEN I added that Gods calling is toward all men. Meaning that many are called but few are chosen.

I would have to look at "Jesus' drawing all men to Himself". (John 12:32) it seems to me He will at the judgment (v31). It seems as if it would consider universalism with my view, unless it is misunderstood. I admit I may be wrong but Ill look into. from the first glance it does support your view...

Just a note - It would only be universalism if all were saved.

Like I said, this is if God made the Will based on our choices.

Though personally I do not agree with the above, my argument was simply - IF God did it this way who are we to argue? The point is we know very little about that event. The only thing we actaully know is that we are chosen by God and it was His decision alone. We can state that it appears a few passages of scripture give allusions or inferences that indicate 'faith' might have been involved in some way or measure but even then it is not exactly specific. (that is we can see this depending on how we see the verse or understand what the verse is saying).

What I did say is that while we are making these godly decisions God is the invisible One behind the scenes.

On this we both agree.

I never would tell someone they didnt have a choice. They do. But. I know inside that unless God wills it, then it wont be done and if He does, it will be done. I accept either way He chooses.

Then it seems like you are not telling the full truth as you know it. Like you are trying to hide something from them that will keep them away if they knew it.
You are telling them they have a choice but in truth you don't believe they do.
If God wills them to be saved then no matter what you tell them they will.

Im afraid to say I understand (b/c truly Im sure I dont), but in this discussion it obviously may come across as Hyper-Calvanism.

Not really. At least I don't think so

I absolutely would say man has 100% responsibilty for His actions whether sin or not. Righteousness for man is out of the question unless in Spirit.

While I agree that man can not do any righteous or salvic (saving) acts/work.
And scripture also states that we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but 'by faith' so if there is no indwelling to after one excersizes faith then what are you meaning "in Spirit".
Scripture states that belief is 'counted' for righteousness. But again we only are righteous 'by faith'.

Truly like I said before we deserve to die in our sin and get hell which would be fair (justice, which God has the right to). It is unfair that God sent His Son for us to give us an unfair redemption. So yes we are all stuck in a trap of sin which we are fully responsible for.

I agree.

..but by the grace of God we are rich and can, in Spirit, do good.

If you mean as a believer, yes. But prior to the excercising of faith we are not in the Spirit for He is not in us, thus we are not in Christ.

To me Calvanism if done right, is the having on your heart on your desperate need of God, while living day by day in choice.

On this I can agree as I have friends who illistrate this point. But, just to be argumentive , what do we then say about those are the same as above but are not Calvinists? Is it then Calvinism or their love for Christ and His love?

I just want to say that God has humbled me a lot, and when I try to humble myself it never works, its a fake act of trying to persuade God with some kind of words or something to alter His choices towards me. I hate being humbled, it doesnt feel good, although I love it at the same time because I am in the right with God at the time. I, like Israel, am in a constant sanctifying cycle. While with all of this on mind, I still know I have full responsibilty to obey God which also brings fear because it is a very serious thing.

I agree if we are talking about a believer.

I know Ill never obey God without His constant mercy He gives which I am undeserving with my ways as hard as I try.

Well said.

Sounds like Calvanism, this is my point we cant believe unless God enables us to do so. I know you didnt mean it like this, but I had to say it

No, that is exactly what I meant. I just take it one step further and say that God enables all men and not just some.

I do appreciate it, and sorry i already went through and relied everything. dont feel pressured into replying back. Thanks for the good clean debate

It is good when you can. Don't get used to it though because you will have some on here that will cause you to tie your ears behind your head to keep you from reaching into screan to choke them :laugh:

 

[zrs6v4]

QUOTE=Allan]
IF God gave us a special type of faith, then I would by necessity have to agree with you. But you made a statement about the 'purpose of God's will' so I will change that around just a bit, if I may, and ask - What is the purpose of God's will to reveal truth to those whom He has not chosen to salvation? What purpose is there to show them truth that He will not allow them to receive?[/QUOTE]
I would say first off God's will is doing anything He pleases, basically. I would have to just throw a basic answer out saying those that hear the truth and see it, but dont understand are a great example of how we cant accept it without God the Holy Spirit. Its not Him allowing them to not recieve but them not receiving b/c they cant without Him.

I can understand why, your above doesn't make sense to me either :laugh:
God was behind bringing Israel to the Promised Land but they did not go in due to unbelief. When we disobey God we did so with God leading us to do one thing and we rejected it. Are you saying that God was leading us and then (for some reason) decided to remove His hand? That is not limiting His power but the illistration of man responsibility. However it is assumption that we reject only if God isn't behind it.

Yes, and the reason is to teach our need and discipline (generally speaking). I still remain firm in Romans on how we cant make godly decisions against our nature unless God is behind it. Mans responsibility is 100%, but like I said we are in that helpless state of dependancy on God.

I do agree that what God intends to take place will but on the same coin it is in conjunction with man's willing obedience or rebellion. I did not say because of it but in conjunction with it.

You sound like you are agreeing with both views (which I understand and feel the same way sometimes) Eph. 1:1-11, so if God before time wills for some to be saved then His will will be done. Anything is possible for God, but how can God predestine for all of it to happen and yet today and tomorrow be giving choices. Like I said when one rejects that would seem to be against His will if they were of His Will, which they rightly could according to your view. IOW- you are saying God predestines some which in deep, no choice, while others HE doesnt, which means again no choice. IF they did have a choice then the Will of God would be determinant on their choice.

I must ask this question to get your thoughts on the matter:
2 Thes 2:10-12 say that these people rejected the truth that they might be saved. And it was for this cause/reason (rejection of the truth) that they might be damned who believed not the truth. IOW- They were condemned because they did not believe the truth God revealed to them, and as says the scripture, "that they might be saved." or another way it is transalted "and so be saved".

yes they were condemned for not believing the truth(we all were there at one point). It never said God revealed anything to them, but rather God sends them a strong dilusion, so they may believe what is false in order that they may be condemned who did not believe the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness. God isnt saying that all of these are getting a shot, but rather that all are condemned. I dont like taking things further but in my view I would say God would open up the hearts of the chosen in order that they might see the condemnation, fear, be broken, and turn to God. Because He heals the sick and the blind. Those who claim to see remain blind and those who claim to be blind may see. I do believe God brings this realization which is similar to what I understand in the word regeneration. I cant say at this point that they can reject this type of calling, which is where we are currently at. They can reject the general calling most have (the part where they see and hear) but the special calling is a divine Will (the part where they understand with there hearts that results in faith to be saved).

This is not the same as God willing everything according to who make positive decisions. What I said simply put is that those whom God foreknew are the same ones who will believe. THEN I added that Gods calling is toward all men. Meaning that many are called but few are chosen.

I understand that you say that Gods call to everyone is equal in a sense.... But I see otherwise I see two types of revelation in the bible. People who see and hear and dont get it while some who see and hear while understanding in their hearts because they have been given to know (chosen); which some reject immediatly, some laugh, some accept and get nothing from it, some accept and go for awhile while still remain in the world(first three dont get it at heart), and few really get it in their hearts and it produces a life in Christ (this one has been given by God). Parable of the sower