Can a 5 Point Calvinist Be A Baptist Fundamentalist?

[Reformed1689]

2 Peter 1:1-4, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. . . ."

The whole book is written to those who are elect. He is not willing that any of the elect should perish but all the elect will come to repentence.

 

[Reformed1689]

But GOD preserved it for ALL. As I asked Austin, can you name anyone now alive for whom salvation os unavailable & impossible?

Those who will not be saved. It is available to them but impossible for them. They will never believe because they will not be changed to believe.

 

[Van]

Again, all limited the extent of the atonement, except for Universalist! Are you now in that camp?

Here we have a Calvinist asking a question to imply his opponent holds false doctrine. They get away with this vicious and vindictive vilification over and over again.

 

[Van]

So God intended all sinners to get saved, but the creation can frustrate its creator?

So this Calvinist asks a question calculated to suggest his opponent holds bogus views. I wish these bullies were not allowed to disrupt discussion, but rather be required to post on topic comments reflecting their views.

 

[JonC]

Nothing else matters if you are not chosen, pre-creation. The cross of Christ is incidental in this scheme. it is not foundational to anything in Calvinism.

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I am telling the truth here. You need to consider it.

I think I get what you are saying. The cross certainly is not where Calvinism begins (it is more a solution or means than a foundation). Cavinism begins with the sovereign will of the Father, not the work of the Son.

But at the same time I do not think it fair to say the cross is merely incidental to Calvinism.

 

[Van]

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

The answer is no. Scripture does not say that Jesus bought those headed for swift destruction. I just quoted your reference and it does not make your claim. [As anyone can see, those heading for swift destruction were bought. Nuff Said]


Context is so very important here as Paul identifies how the word all is defined. Therefore we need to see the verses in front of verse 6.
1 Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

All status groups are found in God's elective and Sovereign will. [Once again the truth of scripture is denied.]


2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Again, this verse simply doesn't support your assertion. Did you mean to reference something else? [Taint so claimed even when scripture says they were bought]


Honestly, I have no idea what you are attempting to argue in this point.
I think you are admitting that Jesus didn't ransom people who go to hell and later to the lake of fire. Is that what you are admitting?
Or are you saying that Jesus payment wasn't enough?

Calvinists love to ask questions calculated to suggest others hold false doctrine. I wish these bullies were held accountable for there systemic deception.

 

[37818]

The whole book is written to those who are elect. He is not willing that any of the elect should perish but all the elect will come to repentence.

Even so, it says all, which would include the non-elect who fail to make there election sure, 2 Peter 1:9-10.

 

[Van]

Can a 5 Point Calvinist be a Fundamentalist Baptist? Of course anyone can profess to be this or that, as integrity is not a given. So the question assumes a valid agreement of doctrines. However, the Fundamentalist doctrines are not given. Here is one list from the internet:

Summarized, these points were: (1) the inerrancy of Scripture, (2) the Virgin Birth of Christ, (3) his substitutionary atonement, (4) his bodily resurrection, and (5) the authenticity of the miracles.​

Certainly a Calvinist agrees with Biblical inerrancy, the Virgin Birth, His bodily resurrection, and the authenticity of the biblical miracles. So, using this list, only the undefined "his substitutionary atonement" might be a stumbling block if integrity is assumed.
Penal Substitution Atonement is a Trojan horse for "Limited Atonement" (Christ only died for the elect - the Calvinist view) but since whether Christ died as a ransom for all or a ransom for some is not stated, no conclusion can be reached.

There are other lists of 5 such as:

1) The inerrancy of Scripture meaning Scripture is without error.
2) The virgin birth of Christ.
3) The substitutionary atonement of Christ.
4) Christ’s bodily resurrection.
5) Christ’s bodily return to earth in the second coming.​

In this second list, the miracle item is replaced with Christ's bodily return.

 

[AustinC]

Calvinists love to ask questions calculated to suggest others hold false doctrine. I wish these bullies were held accountable for there systemic deception.

Speak to me directly, Van.
I ask you and you tell me I am being deceptive. Show me where I am being deceptive or admit you aren't being honest.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Van, have you ever sung the hymn There Is A Fountain Filled With Blood. If so, do you believe the words therein?

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Did Jesus die for the non-elect (those never to be saved)?

Christ did not die for the reprobate, i.e. those destined for everlasting perdition.

 

[JD731]

I think I get what you are saying. The cross certainly is not where Calvinism begins (it is more a solution or means than a foundation). Cavinism begins with the sovereign will of the Father, not the work of the Son.

Yes. This is the essence of my argument and it, pre-creation election as the foundation, is a dangerous place to be. The fundamental, or foundational doctrine of salvation from sin, which is the first item of concern for a guilty sinner, is stated in more than one place in scripture. I will give you two.

1) Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion (Jerusalem) for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, (we know now he was tried for 3.5 years) a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

The laying of the stone is speaking of his death and burial.

2) Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers who were in the building first), and of the household (family through the new birth) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


The chief cornerstone is not pre-creation election. Jesus Christ must have the preeminence and the scriptures gives it to him and we must also.

So, the Temple that is being built here is first the Chief Cornerstone, Jesus Christ, on which the whole building rests
second, it is the apostles who were the eye-witnesses and who wrote the record and were the initial preachers of the gospel
Thirdly, it is the framework, which is Jewish and gentile believers collectively
fourthly, the capstone is Jesus Christ and the inhabitant of the temple is the Holy Spirit.

In this manner, Jesus Christ is the beginning and the ending, the first and the last, and this statement is in the context of the NT church of Jesus Christ, which is his body.
There is much more wonderful theology but I will let it rest here for now.

Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

The reason gentiles waer included in this house is because Israel's rulers (the builders) rejected Jesus as the Christ.

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

Samaritans Acts 8
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

Gentiles Acts 10
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

But at the same time I do not think it fair to say the cross is merely incidental to Calvinism.

The cross and resurrection is no more important than the regeneration of the Spirit so a man can believe, as Calvinism teaches, or the gift of faith that must come from the Father, both which precedes any confidence in the cross. The most important doctrine in Calvinism is pre- creation selection by God. The cross certainly is an incidental in Calvinism and Calvinism is another gospel.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Nupe! You think I misunderstand because I reject the calvinist myth.

Have you ever read the 1669 London Baptist Confession? That's called a Calvinistic Confession. Anyone who is an authentic Christian would agree with at minimum 75% of it.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 11:25 PM Pacific.

 

[JonC]

Yes. This is the essence of my argument and it, pre-creation election as the foundation, is a dangerous place to be. The fundamental, or foundational doctrine of salvation from sin, which is the first item of concern for a guilty sinner, is stated in more than one place in scripture. I will give you two.

1) Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion (Jerusalem) for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, (we know now he was tried for 3.5 years) a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

The laying of the stone is speaking of his death and burial.

2) Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers who were in the building first), and of the household (family through the new birth) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


The chief cornerstone is not pre-creation election. Jesus Christ must have the preeminence and the scriptures gives it to him and we must also.

So, the Temple that is being built here is first the Chief Cornerstone, Jesus Christ, on which the whole building rests
second, it is the apostles who were the eye-witnesses and who wrote the record and were the initial preachers of the gospel
Thirdly, it is the framework, which is Jewish and gentile believers collectively
fourthly, the capstone is Jesus Christ and the inhabitant of the temple is the Holy Spirit.

In this manner, Jesus Christ is the beginning and the ending, the first and the last, and this statement is in the context of the NT church of Jesus Christ, which is his body.
There is much more wonderful theology but I will let it rest here for now.

Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

The reason gentiles waer included in this house is because Israel's rulers (the builders) rejected Jesus as the Christ.

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

Samaritans Acts 8
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

Gentiles Acts 10
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.



The cross and resurrection is no more important than the regeneration of the Spirit so a man can believe, as Calvinism teaches, or the gift of faith that must come from the Father, both which precedes any confidence in the cross. The most important doctrine in Calvinism is pre- creation selection by God. The cross certainly is an incidental in Calvinism and Calvinism is another gospel.

I don't hold Barth's theology, but one thing I admire about his method is he was very Christ-centered. He believed we can only know God via Christ and any attempt to study the Father except in Chrust is in essence going around the cross and devolves into philosophy rather than theology.

 

[JD731]

I don't hold Barth's theology, but one thing I admire about his method is he was very Christ-centered. He believed we can only know God via Christ and any attempt to study the Father except in Chrust is in essence going around the cross and devolves into philosophy rather than theology.

Vain philosophy. The essence of Calvinism. One must believe the words.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Vain philosophy. The essence of Calvinism. One must believe the words.

You put things mysteriously. I wish you could communicate more clearly.
Are you saying that Barth's theology was vain philosophy? If so, I would agree with you.
What is the essence of Calvinism? Do you think Barth is representative of Calvinism?
One must believe the words of what? The Bible? I agree. The words of Barth? No.

 

[Reformed1689]

Even so, it says all, which would include the non-elect who fail to make there election sure, 2 Peter 1:9-10.

Only if you ignore context. If God willed none to perish none would perish.

 

[JD731]

You put things mysteriously. I wish you could communicate more clearly.
Are you saying that Barth's theology was vain philosophy? If so, I would agree with you.
What is the essence of Calvinism? Do you think Barth is representative of Calvinism?
One must believe the words of what? The Bible? I agree. The words of Barth? No.

I did not mention Barth and he has not been the subject of my op or subsequent conversation. I have been discussing Calvinistic Baptists and the fundamentals of Christianity as they are taught by them and by IFB's. I wondered in my op if Calvinists can be fundamentalists and I reckoned they could not. I think I have proven in this thread that Calvinists have one single fundamental of their religion and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the cross of Jesus Christ in it's initial application. It is pre-creation election unto salvation from the penalty of sin by God the Father. Further, I have claimed this is not what IFB's believe but they are the true fundamentalists Baptists.

Barth will not be consulted when we appear before God to give account of ourselves. Therefore, I don't care what Barth taught. I am more interested in what you are teaching and how I am going to react to it. I have decided to believe the words of the bible rather than the words Calvinists redefine in order to advance their theological system in order for it to be consistent with that one fundamental doctrine they have put their trust in.

 

[Iconoclast]

Those who perish do so by their own will, or lack of it. But salvation is open to all living as mortals on earth.

You claim Calvinists believe false man made teaching.I believe you said myths???
yet...here in your post, you suggest the false teaching that salvation is of the will of man
Jesus taught instead what Calvinists believe in Jn.1:13, that salvation is
not of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
BUT OF GOD.
Looks as if the false teaching and myth comes from your keyboard, day after day

Those who perish do so by their own will, or lack of it. But salvation is open to all living as mortals on earth.