Steadfast Fred
Active Member
I reckon next we will have to believe that Adam didn't live 930 years, but rather 23 billion or something like that.
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can A baptist Believe In Theistic Evolution?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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Steadfast Fred
Active Member
In the Chicago Tribune, July 9th, 1886, Mark Twain wrote:
In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. This is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolithic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing rod. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
The river was one million three hundred thousand miles long a million years ago? Wow. So if we are to believe the OE story, that the earth is 65 billion years old, the Mississippi must have stretched around the world infinite times. ROFL
Why not just believe the Word of God? God created the earth in 6 days... not millions of years.
In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. This is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolithic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing rod. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
The river was one million three hundred thousand miles long a million years ago? Wow. So if we are to believe the OE story, that the earth is 65 billion years old, the Mississippi must have stretched around the world infinite times. ROFL
Why not just believe the Word of God? God created the earth in 6 days... not millions of years.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
Try to get your information correct at least, there has never been a credible scientific claim in modern history to ever assert that the universe was 65 billion years old, much less the earth. I think perhaps you may be thinking about the extinction event of the dinosaurs which science estimates at about 65 Million years ago, order of magnitude of difference from your "shot" of 65 billion years.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Million, billion... what's the difference? Both are incorrect. The Word of God tells us the earth was created in 6 days.
Scripture reveals to us that Abraham circumcised Isaac when Isaac was eight days old. Same Hebrew word used as in the creatiion account.
If we were to believe OE balderdash, then we would have to believe that Abraham actually circumcised Isaac when Isaac was really millions of years old.
Even if the days were longer or shorter when the earth was created, they would not have been much longer or shorter than they are now.
Scripture reveals to us that Abraham circumcised Isaac when Isaac was eight days old. Same Hebrew word used as in the creatiion account.
If we were to believe OE balderdash, then we would have to believe that Abraham actually circumcised Isaac when Isaac was really millions of years old.
Even if the days were longer or shorter when the earth was created, they would not have been much longer or shorter than they are now.
quantumfaith
Active Member
FYI, One billion is one thousand million.
The Hebrew word translated "day" is yom. Yom can refer to a 12-hour day, a 24-hour day or an indefinite period of time. (Yes, I realize that there are preachers out there who say it only refers to 24-hour days, but they are absolutely incorrect.) Context tells the reader which version is intended.
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions:
yôm (Strong's H3117)
1. day, time, year
a. day (as opposed to night)
b. day (24 hour period)
1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2. as a division of time
a. a working day, a day’s journey
c. days, lifetime (plural)
d. time, period (general)
e. year
f. temporal references
1.today
2. yesterday
3. tomorrow
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The way I see it, if OE can claim that yom in Genesis 1 means an indefinite amount of time (with no proof to back such a nonsensical claim) then I can say yom in Genesis 21 also means an indefinite amount of time. And I will be just as right as the OE crowd.
If you could demonstrate how Context supports this notion—then “yes” you could. Context determines the genuine meaning of many words in Hebrew & Greek. In the ancient languages words often had various meanings & without the context one would have no idea which meaning was intended. The ambiguity of the creation account in Gen 1-2 in the ancient language makes it difficult to determine the exact context with 100% certainty. This being said, I personally feel that the connection of “yom” with a certain number favors a literal 24-hour day. Thus, I believe in a literal 6-day creation. But I certainly respect other ideas, & think someone could be a genuine Christian-- if they disagreed with me on this issue.
Plenty of evidence has been offered, but of course no one can prove anything to anyone who does not want to consider another point of view. Just like when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, "many" (John 11:45) believed in Jesus, but obviously some did not.
Discussion of scripture is useless if one or more of the parties to the discussion don't have enough humility and honesty to look at the evidence and consider whether or not their interpretation may not be completely correct/complete. Remember, we are discussing our interpretation of scripture (what we believe the scripture actually teaches), not whether or not the other side "believes God."
You can say it. Sane, rational context tells normal people something different.
Nope, and I know you're smart enough to know better.
You know from your mastery of English, words in a language have different meanings according to context. Even in English, the word day doesn't necessarily mean 12 or 24 hours.
Discussion of scripture is useless if one or more of the parties to the discussion don't have enough humility and honesty to look at the evidence and consider whether or not their interpretation may not be completely correct/complete. Remember, we are discussing our interpretation of scripture (what we believe the scripture actually teaches), not whether or not the other side "believes God."
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
So, let me get this straight...
I am supposed to prove a theory that yom in Genesis 21 means 20+ million years, yet the OE group can theorize the earth is 65 million years old (or older) and they need no proof.
Why is it I feel like the outcome is already determined even there is no proof on either side?
The fact is, I believe the earth is approximately 6,000 years old. I also believe that Isaac was only an infant when he was circumcised.
I was trying to show the foolishness of claiming that a day was equal to millions of years in one place in the Bible when there is no other verse to prove such a ridiculous claim.
Exodus 20:11 tells us that God made the earth and everything in it in six days. I believe the Bible. It does not say over millions of years, it says six days.
Scripture tells us God spoke the world into existence. Unless God is slow, I cannot see how it would take Him millions of years to create the world... especially in light of how Jesus performed miracles in such short time periods; i.e., water into wine, feeding 4,000, feeding 5,000, healings, etc..
God is not as challenged as many would have us to think.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Yes. Absolutely true.
If you are suggesting that I haven't considered the YE position very carefully, then you are incorrect. I assumed that's what the scripture taught for many years until I dug into the Hebrew and carefully analyzed the text of Genesis 1 and 2 to defend the YE position when I was in seminary a number of years ago.
I realized I had been mistaken based on the text of scripture. Among other things, the creation of the woman is in a different sequence in Genesis 2, and the word "yom" is used in Genesis 2:4 in a non-literal, non 24-hour way. The divine name is also used differently between the Genesis 1 and 2, pointing to a progression by the author to advance the proposition that the Creator of the heavens and the earth is the God of Israel.
I thoroughly believe the scripture, what God has said, and that belief drives me to read the text very carefully and see what it actually says and not what I want it to say. My life in Baptist circles would be much easier if I could in good conscience say that I believe Genesis 1 and 2 teaches a six 24-hour day creation, but I cannot because of my respect for God's word.
Your understanding may vary, and that's okay. However it is not okay to make claims that someone else "doesn't believe the Bible", "calls God a liar", or "doesn't believe God" simply over a difference of interpretation.
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No I am suggesting that you made this statement, true as it is, and then worked against your very own words in the quote I provided.
Brother—we both support the literal 6 day creation—so I really don’t want to defend a theory I don’t personally endorse---but even I admit that Scripture such as 2 Pet 3:8-(ie with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day) means that God does not always work within a 24- hour period day.
You are still incorrect. I considered the position carefully to evaluate whether or not Steadfast Fred had a valid point.
Furthermore, I've had enough previous interactions with Steadfast Fred to know that he (I've assumed Fred is a he) can be a very reasonable person and often has some relevant and insightful things to say. I have benefited from some of his previous posts. In particular, he was helpful in my analysis of the annihilationist position a few months ago. He gave me some scriptures and noted some things I had not considered before.
Through that interaction, I know he is obviously intelligent enough to know that the comparison he made is not valid, and that he is doing it as a rhetorical tool in an attempt to demonstrate that the word "yom" should normally be used to designate a 24-hour day.
I'm calling him on that because it is obviously not accurate.
I have nothing against Steadfast Fred. In fact, I always take note of his posts. You seem to assume I am attacking him.
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I agree with your last statement, but if yom with a certain number favors a literal 24-hour day, was creation all in one day, per Genesis 2:4?
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
While this is true, we must also consider the fact that even in Peter, the day was the same as in Genesis.... evening and morning.
I believe Peter was trying to convey to the reader that 1000 days really meant nothing to the Lord as far as time goes, but 'day' always meant something to man.
That said, I do not believe OE can honestly say day meant millions of years in the creation. It may have had the same meaning to God since He works outside of time, but to man, I believe it meant the same then as it does now.
For instance, Peter said a day is as a thousand years to the Lord. Now, does that mean that if I say I am going to the mailbox today, I mean it may take me a thousand years? Of course not.
I believe when Moses recorded that the earth was created in six days, he meant 6 literal days. Genesis reveals they knew what weeks, months and years were, so why not days too? Hebrew calendars reveal days on them, as I recall.
And the same could be said of the OE view of yom in Genesis 1
God makes a clear comparison of the sabbath day and the days of creation.
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The Jewish day was sunset til sunset. (The evening and the morning, sound familiar?)
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
To try and make the word day mean an indeterminate amount of time in light of the context of scripture is like trying to make an argument from pure imagination.
2 Pet 3:8-(ie with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day)
One day with the Lord is AS a thousand years...AS one day.
This is a figure of speech, two similes put together to show that time does not exist with God. God is eternal and exists outside of time. God doesn't change over time. This verse has nothing to do with creation or Genesis one. To try to use to justify any length of time or duration of day in Genesis one is taking this verse out of context and destroying the meaning of it. Let's use proper hermeneutics here and "rightly divide the word of truth."