Can a believer sin?

[Steven2006]

I see that Paul's fondness of superlatives has eluded you.

No, I understand that he was saying he was the first or the foremost sinner. I understand it was in the present tense. With all due respect, maybe rather you are having trouble seeing the forrest for the trees. You might be so focused on every nuance of the wording you are missing the point. To me it seems obvious Paul was calling himself that because of what he had done. The fact he was capable of those sins, made him feel that way. Do you really believe he felt as though it was current sins he was committing and living in, for his reasoning?

 

[EdSutton]

What time you are shaking your head, are you also "chief" among sinners now.

No Bob, {Sigh!} the 'worst' I could possibly be is #2. Paul locked up #1 a long time ago, according to Scripture. If you don't agree with that, take it up with the Holy Spirit and Paul. They are the ones who said it.

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

I see no one is quoting any present tense terrible sins worse than anyone else around tha Apostle Paul was guilty of.

Also, Strong's was not put together by people like me, they were scholars no doubt, and Strong's says "am" can be "was" or "have been". Which makes a whole lot more sense when reading the scripture for Paul listed his past sins, of which he was acknowledging then.

1 Tim 1:
12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He is talking about when Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, which was certainly in the past of when Paul was talking.

I will close out on this part, I think I will accept Strong's.

1. I know that some have an aversion to commentators and scholars. I shall however quote several here:

a. "Such statements are to be understood in light of the intersection in Paul's life of the simultaneous overwhelming sense of his own sinfulness and utter helplessness before God and the fact of God's grace lavished freely on him and God's unconditionally accepting him despite his sin. It should also be noted that he says I am, not "I was" (Gordon Fee, "1 and 2 Timothy, Titus," in NIBC, p. 53).

b. "Concerning himself Paul indicated that he stood foremost in the ranks of sinners... Paul sincerely saw himself as the leading sinner among candidates fro the dubious honor" (Thomas D. Lea and Hayne P. Griffin, Jr., "1,2 Timothy, Titus," in NAC, p.74).

c. "Paul sees himself in the vanguard of those whose sins have called forth the resources of God's mercy" (D. Guthrie, "The Pastoral Epistles," in TNTC, p. 76.

d. Neither is there anything in the the use of the present eimi to suggest Paul was speaking of his former life. He was addressing his life in v.15 after his conversion. Romans 7 should settle that.

 

[EdSutton]

Got it right that time, did you?

Workin' on it!

Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a "shake head" 'smiley'?

If the BB had one, I would have "worn it out" by now.

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

No, I understand that he was saying he was the first or the foremost sinner. I understand it was in the present tense. With all due respect, maybe rather you are having trouble seeing the forrest for the trees. You might be so focused on every nuance of the wording you are missing the point. To me it seems obvious Paul was calling himself that because of what he had done. The fact he was capable of those sins, made him feel that way. Do you really believe he felt as though it was current sins he was committing and living in, for his reasoning?

1. I see nothing wrong in Paul being sincere in his humility of how sinful he is: "I am the chief of sinners."

2. Let's not enshrine Paul. He doesn't want that (Eph. 3:8).

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
What time you are shaking your head, are you also "chief" among sinners now.
No Bob, {Sigh!} the 'worst' I could possibly be is #2. Paul locked up #1 a long time ago, according to Scripture. If you don't agree with that, take it up with the Holy Spirit and Paul. They are the ones who said it.

Ed

Oh, I don't know Ed; I feel myself that I was chief of sinners. I don't talk like Paul but glad to have someone like Stong's around of which you use yourself, if I am not mistaken.

You problem is you don't know the time period Paul was speaking of. {sigh}................

 

[Brother Bob]

1. I know that some have an aversion to commentators and scholars. I shall however quote several here:

a. "Such statements are to be understood in light of the intersection in Paul's life of the simultaneous overwhelming sense of his own sinfulness and utter helplessness before God and the fact of God's grace lavished freely on him and God's unconditionally accepting him despite his sin. It should also be noted that he says I am, not "I was" (Gordon Fee, "1 and 2 Timothy, Titus," in NIBC, p. 53).

b. "Concerning himself Paul indicated that he stood foremost in the ranks of sinners... Paul sincerely saw himself as the leading sinner among candidates fro the dubious honor" (Thomas D. Lea and Hayne P. Griffin, Jr., "1,2 Timothy, Titus," in NAC, p.74).

c. "Paul sees himself in the vanguard of those whose sins have called forth the resources of God's mercy" (D. Guthrie, "The Pastoral Epistles," in TNTC, p. 76.

d. Neither is there anything in the the use of the present eimi to suggest Paul was speaking of his former life. He was addressing his life in v.15 after his conversion. Romans 7 should settle that.__________________

Well, I didn't know that others had taken on the scholars or whoever. It just makes my argument that much stronger. I really don't know these people and if they have an axe to grind or not. It may be they fell off the wagon and needed an excuse for their sin.

 

[TCGreek]

Well, I didn't know that others had taken on the scholars or whoever. It just makes my argument that much stronger. I really don't know these people and if they have an axe to grind or not. It may be they fell off the wagon and needed an excuse for their sin.

Stick to your guns and I will stick to mine. Is that fair? I think so.

 

[Brother Bob]

TC; Stick to your guns and I will stick to mine. Is that fair? I think so.

Very Good TC;


The very next year after Paul wrote this text about the chief of sinners, he wrote: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith; henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day; end not to me only, but unto them also that love His appearing.”—2 Tim. 4:6-8. How could the chief of sinners say, as he was facing death, that he had fought a good fight, and kept the faith, and was expecting a crown of righteousness? Is a crown of righteousness laid up for sinners?

Paul wrote, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not.”—I Cor. 15:34. And again he asks the question, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?“—Rom. 6:1-2. Strange that Paul should exhort others to quit sinning and keep right on himself. Where would be the consistency

 

[TCGreek]

Very Good TC;


The very next year after Paul wrote this text about the chief of sinners, he wrote: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith; henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day; end not to me only, but unto them also that love His appearing.”—2 Tim. 4:6-8. How could the chief of sinners say, as he was facing death, that he had fought a good fight, and kept the faith, and was expecting a crown of righteousness? Is a crown of righteousness laid up for sinners?

1. Paul "fought the good fight." I wonder what was he fighting?

2. In another place, Paul says, "But I treat roughly my body and enslave it, lest when I have preached to others, I myself might be worthless/disqualified" (1Cor 9:27). I wonder what Paul was referring to?

 

[Brother Bob]

TC; "But I treat roughly my body and enslave it, lest when I have preached to others, I myself might be worthless/disqualified" (1Cor 9:27).

You mean you didn't know there is a war going on between satan and the believers.

Below is KJV
27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I thought everyone knew of the warefare between the flesh and the spirit.

Romans 7:
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Steven2006]

1. I see nothing wrong in Paul being sincere in his humility of how sinful he is: "I am the chief of sinners."

I agree with that, I just feel he was referring to what he knew he was capable of, because of what he had done in persecuting the Church and how he felt about himself because of it. Obviously we are all entitled to are opinions, I just don't feel one can be so dogmatic about it.


2. Let's not enshrine Paul. He doesn't want that (Eph. 3:8).

Don't believe I was, if anything I felt I was empathizing with his view.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Also, Strong's was not put together by people like me, they were scholars no doubt, and Strong's says "am" can be "was" or "have been".

-------------

I will close out on this part, I think I will accept Strong's.

If I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong; Strong's is a very weak resource, except for the numbers, so I don't have the book, but use the numbers on my computer), Strong's does not break down the parts of speech, just gives the different ways the word was translated.

So, it would be translated "I was" as one part of speech and "I am" as another, and Strong's would list that the word has been translated as "I was" and "I am".

 

[TCGreek]

You mean you didn't know there is a war going on between satan and the believers.

Below is KJV
27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I thought everyone knew of the warefare between the flesh and the spirit.

1 Corth 9:
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1. Let's call a truce: You stick to your guns and I will stick to mine. I think that's
fair.

2. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I would tend to agree with you Bob, that Paul was speaking of his past.

Let me pose a question:

Which sin is greater: The terrible sin that you committed in ignorance, or the minor sin you committed knowingly?

 

[James_Newman]

1. Paul "fought the good fight." I wonder what was he fighting?

2. In another place, Paul says, "But I treat roughly my body and enslave it, lest when I have preached to others, I myself might be worthless/disqualified" (1Cor 9:27). I wonder what Paul was referring to?

Hey, me too. I think we all agree that Paul was a very bad sinner before he was converted on the road to Damascus. And most of us will understand that he still had a sin nature that he struggled with afterwards. I just want to know how successful a man's struggle has to be before he can consider himself saved. Brother Bob would say that Paul acheived a very high degree of practical righteousness, and I would agree. Do we infer that every Christian must run like Paul or he is not really a believer?

 

[TCGreek]

If I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong; Strong's is a very weak resource, except for the numbers, so I don't have the book, but use the numbers on my computer), Strong's does not break down the parts of speech, just gives the different ways the word was translated.

So, it would be translated "I was" as one part of speech and "I am" as another, and Strong's would list that the word has been translated as "I was" and "I am".

1. This fact of Strong's has been lost upon many on this Board.

2. I have said repeatedly that I respect those who use Strong's, but Strong's can only take a person so far, then that's it.

3. Strong's is inadequate for serious study of the Word of God. Period.

 

[Brother Bob]

If I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong; Strong's is a very weak resource, except for the numbers, so I don't have the book, but use the numbers on my computer), Strong's does not break down the parts of speech, just gives the different ways the word was translated.

So, it would be translated "I was" as one part of speech and "I am" as another, and Strong's would list that the word has been translated as "I was" and "I am".

I am, I was, and I have been are all used in the same way. You can go through the Bible and find "am" anywhere and its translated that way. So, I choose "I was". TC; chooses "I am".
I guess we both are entitled to our own choice. It seems to me it would be the one that included the sins Paul listed. (context) means everything.

 

[TCGreek]

Hey, me too. I think we all agree that Paul was a very bad sinner before he was converted on the road to Damascus. And most of us will understand that he still had a sin nature that he struggled with afterwards. I just want to know how successful a man's struggle has to be before he can consider himself saved. Brother Bob would say that Paul acheived a very high degree of practical righteousness, and I would agree. Do we infer that every Christian must run like Paul or he is not really a believer?

1. Scripture and experience will inform each of us that every believer's pligrimage is unique.

2. Each believer is responsible for how he conducts his life. He will have to square that with God.

 

[EdSutton]

Oh, I don't know Ed; I feel myself that I was chief of sinners. I don't talk like Paul but glad to have someone like Stong's around of which you use yourself, if I am not mistaken.

You problem is you don't know the time period Paul was speaking of. {sigh}................

Paul, as another pointed out, did not say "was". He said "am", the current time period, by any reckoning.

I use Strong's to look up some verses.

I do not normally use Strong's, but rather Thayer and Wigram as my Greek lexicons. I also have the grammars by Machen and by Dana and Mantey. One reason I do not use Strong's for this is that, according to something I read, Dr. James Strong did not know koine` Greek, but merely compiled these materials together.

I do sometimes look up Hebrew words in Strong's, not knowing any Hebrew or Aramaic, myself, and figuring even a little bit of help, when needed, is better than none.

Ed