Can a believer sin?

[James_Newman]

That 'miracle'.

G'nite, all.

Ed

Because the two subjects are intimately tied together. If you hold that Christians who sin will not be judged for sin, then you have to answer a whole lot of scripture that says they will. So many run to the other side of the boat and say that 'real' Christians couldn't do those things anyway. Well then you have a whole lot of other scriptures to answer. I think the balanced view is always going to end with the truth that Christians are saved apart from works, but are held accountable for works after salvation. The only real question is 'just how accountable?'

 

[charles_creech78]

Because the two subjects are intimately tied together. If you hold that Christians who sin will not be judged for sin, then you have to answer a whole lot of scripture that says they will. So many run to the other side of the boat and say that 'real' Christians couldn't do those things anyway. Well then you have a whole lot of other scriptures to answer. I think the balanced view is always going to end with the truth that Christians are saved apart from works, but are held accountable for works after salvation. The only real question is 'just how accountable?'

What did Jesus Christ save you from?

 

[James_Newman]

What did Jesus Christ save you from?

Many things, but I was refering to this:
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[charles_creech78]

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, YE ARE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, EPH 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, whereby ye ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

 

[Lacy Evans]

What did Jesus Christ save you from?

Does the blood of Christ save you from chastening if you are a disobedient son, or an unmerciful servant?

 

[charles_creech78]

Does the blood of Christ save you from chastening if you are a disobedient son, or an unmerciful servant?

Heb 12:8 But if ye be WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof all are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTERDS, AND NOT SONS. Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in SUBJECTION unto the father of SPIRITS, and LIVE? Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our PROFIT, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Heb 12:6 For whom the LORD LOVETH he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son WHOM HE RECEIVETH. He does it because he loves us. 1 Co 11:32 But when we are JUDGED, we are CHASTENED OF THE LORD, THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD. The blood of christ saves us yes. But not from chastening. He does this because he loves us and we are his sons.

 

[jne1611]

Heb 12:8 But if ye be WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof all are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTERDS, AND NOT SONS. Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in SUBJECTION unto the father of SPIRITS, and LIVE? Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our PROFIT, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Heb 12:6 For whom the LORD LOVETH he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son WHOM HE RECEIVETH. He does it because he loves us. 1 Co 11:32 But when we are JUDGED, we are CHASTENED OF THE LORD, THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD. The blood of christ saves us yes. But not from chastening. He does this because he loves us and we are his sons.

Amen!:thumbs:

 

[Lacy Evans]

The blood of christ saves us yes. But not from chastening. He does this because he loves us and we are his sons.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Christ's absolute imputed righteousness and our own practical righteousness (That keeps us from chastening) are two distinct subjects that must be divided.

lacy

 

[DHK]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Christ's absolute imputed righteousness and our own practical righteousness (That keeps us from chastening) are two distinct subjects that must be divided.

lacy

All chastening done by the Lord is on this earth before the rapture takes place. There is no evidence that there is any chastening that takes place afterward. God chastens his children (while they are yet children), that is, while they are yet on this earth before they are taken to heaven, before the MK ever takes place.

 

[James_Newman]

All chastening done by the Lord is on this earth before the rapture takes place. There is no evidence that there is any chastening that takes place afterward. God chastens his children (while they are yet children), that is, while they are yet on this earth before they are taken to heaven, before the MK ever takes place.

Then 'losing a crown' is not chastening?

 

[DHK]

Then 'losing a crown' is not chastening?

No, how can losing something be considered chastening. Read Heb.12 for more of a definition of chastening.

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

If I lose something then it is lost.

Chastening is something that is endured, unlike something that is lost.

 

[James_Newman]

Endure, like suffering? Like suffering loss? I think that you are just unwilling to call something chastening if it occurs at the judgment seat of Christ, not because you really feel strongly that losing something cannot be considered chastening.

 

[DHK]

Endure, like suffering? Like suffering loss? I think that you are just unwilling to call something chastening if it occurs at the judgment seat of Christ, not because you really feel strongly that losing something cannot be considered chastening.

Not so. The entire illustration in Heb.12 is that of a father to a son. If you believe that losing a reward is like enduring chastening you end up with a works based salvation. At the JSOC, once a rewad is lost, it is lost forever. However in chastening (discipline), it is but for a temporary period of time. A parent may discipline a child in taking away a privilige (some may call it a loss). For example, I have heard of some parents take away internet privileges from their children for as long as a week. But the privilege is always restored. That is a type of chastening or discipline. It is temporary not permanent. How could a parent impose on a child a permanent loss of "internet use"? It would be impossible. The priviliege at some point in time would have to be restored. That is the point of chastening. To bring the child back to restoration. In your model the loss is permanent; it is eternal, forever. That turns salvation into a religion of works. Instead of God chastening me for a short period of time I am put into the position where I must work my way to heaven, or I will lose my salvation at the JSOC, because whatever is lost here on earth is a permanent loss.

 

[James_Newman]

Some privileges cannot be restored. If my son, because of disobedience, misses out on the chance to go to a party, do I have to throw another party for him later? That party is permanently lost.

 

[jne1611]

Not so. The entire illustration in Heb.12 is that of a father to a son. If you believe that losing a reward is like enduring chastening you end up with a works based salvation. At the JSOC, once a rewad is lost, it is lost forever. However in chastening (discipline), it is but for a temporary period of time. A parent may discipline a child in taking away a privilige (some may call it a loss). For example, I have heard of some parents take away internet privileges from their children for as long as a week. But the privilege is always restored. That is a type of chastening or discipline. It is temporary not permanent. How could a parent impose on a child a permanent loss of "internet use"? It would be impossible. The priviliege at some point in time would have to be restored. That is the point of chastening. To bring the child back to restoration. In your model the loss is permanent; it is eternal, forever. That turns salvation into a religion of works. Instead of God chastening me for a short period of time I am put into the position where I must work my way to heaven, or I will lose my salvation at the JSOC, because whatever is lost here on earth is a permanent loss.

Though I see what you are saying. Since we know the JSOC is not to determine our salvation, & the judgment will have no baring on our going to heaven, I think it will be a rebuke to lose rewards & to suffer lose. And chastisement in Heb. 12 is also characterized by rebuke. Although I see your point about our having been glorified. Yet, I think it will still be a humbling & sad time for us when we see our loses as apposed to our gains.

 

[npetreley]

Though I see what you are saying. Since we know the JSOC is not to determine our salvation, & the judgment will have no baring on our going to heaven, I think it will be a rebuke to lose rewards & to suffer lose. And chastisement in Heb. 12 is also characterized by rebuke. Although I see your point about our having been glorified. Yet, I think it will still be a humbling & sad time for us when we see our loses as apposed to our gains.

This is just a wild guess, since we don't really know what it will be like, but I'm betting we will not be sad. When the Lord chastises me now, I often feel bad when going through it, but I when I look back and see WHY and what good it did me, I'm very happy. I bet at the moment we lose rewards, we will fully realize WHY we have lost rewards, agree with Jesus, and move on. I don't think there will be that period of confusion about what's happening to us.

Again, just a WILD guess. Take with two grains of salt and call me in the morning.

 

[Brother Bob]

Will you fellows have to mow grass in this reign?

 

[jne1611]

Will you fellows have to mow grass in this reign?

I hope not. It will be as tall as trees!:laugh:

 

[DHK]

Some privileges cannot be restored. If my son, because of disobedience, misses out on the chance to go to a party, do I have to throw another party for him later? That party is permanently lost.

Here are somethings that are never lost:
Our salvation.
Our glorification
Our being heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
Our return to earth with Jesus Christ (Rev.19)
Our rule and reign with Christ during the MK.

This happens in spite of what happens at the JSOC.

 

[jne1611]

This is just a wild guess, since we don't really know what it will be like, but I'm betting we will not be sad. When the Lord chastises me now, I often feel bad when going through it, but I when I look back and see WHY and what good it did me, I'm very happy. I bet at the moment we lose rewards, we will fully realize WHY we have lost rewards, agree with Jesus, and move on. I don't think there will be that period of confusion about what's happening to us.

Again, just a WILD guess. Take with two grains of salt and call me in the morning.

You may be right. I see that we agree with a lot of things during the Judgments of the Revelation that we would have a hard time witnessing right now, so I really don't know. I know in Rev. 21:4 it speaks of God wiping the tears from our eyes, but that may be for a different reason. Anyway, it could be either way.

That salt is better than I thought.





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