Can a Calvinist deny Lordship salvation and hold to the sinners prayer?

[JamesL]

Yes, I was aware the Holy Spirit was not given until after Jesus rose from the dead, but I do not believe that negates his promise to this woman. Her sins would have been forgiven then and there, and after Jesus rose she would have received the Spirit just as all the other persons who believed before Pentacost did.

The point I was trying to make is that salvation in the scriptures is EASY. Very easy. You don't see folks having to promise to obey and serve Jesus, you see folks being saved on the spot. That was the case with this woman, moments later we see her running into town telling everyone she could about Jesus.

Jhn 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

You may not like the sinner's prayer, but it is scriptural. From Jesus's own example, the publican simply asked for mercy and forgiveness and received it. Folks want to make salvation more difficult than it is.

When it comes to making salvation difficult vs easy, that can be looked at two ways. Adding a work to faith makes it "easy" because it gives people the psychological comfort that they did something to make grace effectual. It's easy on the psyche.

But to strip away all works, and simply rely upon Christ and His merits - to trust only what He's done on our behalf, without trying to add some ritual to make it effective, that IS difficult. It takes humility. I went through it. Coming to the point where I rejected my own effort, and hoped only in Christ, that was the most difficult thing I ever had to go through.

If the sinner's prayer were biblical, I would have been born again one of the 600-800 times I performed that worthless ritual. It reduces the work of the Holy Spirit by adding a human work.

I wonder where you get the idea that forgiveness necessarily equates to eternal life? You like to reference the publican, but where does Jesus say the man had a conversion?

Since you first believed, have you never prayed for forgiveness and mercy? I've been a believer for 15 years, but I prayed for forgiveness just this morning. And according to 1John 1:9, I went away forgiven.

Does that mean I was converted again this morning? I agree with Old Regular, when he says a sinner's prayer is for the believer. Believers pray, and God listens.

But that publican...Jesus said he went away justified. That MUST mean conversion, right? You must prove that one. Justified in what? You're trying to press into that passage something which is not stated. Demonstrate that he was an unbeliever before he beat on his chest.

Woman at the well....didn't she say "When Messiah comes..."? John 4:25

I contend that she was a believer already, looking for the consolation of Israel, the same as Simeon in Luke 2:25.

Where does any scripture say she was converted that day?

 

[Winman]

When it comes to making salvation difficult vs easy, that can be looked at two ways. Adding a work to faith makes it "easy" because it gives people the psychological comfort that they did something to make grace effectual. It's easy on the psyche.

But to strip away all works, and simply rely upon Christ and His merits - to trust only what He's done on our behalf, without trying to add some ritual to make it effective, that IS difficult. It takes humility. I went through it. Coming to the point where I rejected my own effort, and hoped only in Christ, that was the most difficult thing I ever had to go through.

If the sinner's prayer were biblical, I would have been born again one of the 600-800 times I performed that worthless ritual. It reduces the work of the Holy Spirit by adding a human work.

I wonder where you get the idea that forgiveness necessarily equates to eternal life? You like to reference the publican, but where does Jesus say the man had a conversion?

Since you first believed, have you never prayed for forgiveness and mercy? I've been a believer for 15 years, but I prayed for forgiveness just this morning. And according to 1John 1:9, I went away forgiven.

Does that mean I was converted again this morning? I agree with Old Regular, when he says a sinner's prayer is for the believer. Believers pray, and God listens.

But that publican...Jesus said he went away justified. That MUST mean conversion, right? You must prove that one. Justified in what? You're trying to press into that passage something which is not stated. Demonstrate that he was an unbeliever before he beat on his chest.

Woman at the well....didn't she say "When Messiah comes..."? John 4:25

I contend that she was a believer already, looking for the consolation of Israel, the same as Simeon in Luke 2:25.

Where does any scripture say she was converted that day?

Well, scripture says NOW are we the sons of God.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I believe the first time you sincerely call on Jesus to save you, he does. You are a son of God that very moment.

Do you sin afterward? Yes, and fellowship is broken, but we are saved just the same. We confess to be made right again with Jesus. It is just like our earthly family, if we sin against our wife, or brother, or sister, does that mean they are no longer our wife, or brother, or sister? No, but fellowship can be broken, you might get the cold shoulder until you apologize and ask forgiveness.

I think your problem was lack of assurance. When you did not "feel" saved you did not believe you were saved. So, you asked over and over and over again. Been there.

The problem was not that you needed to get saved (again), the problem was you needed to get sin out of your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=devfseWA9Lw

Watch this video carefully, because it answers your question. Watch the whole thing, watch it several times until you get it.

 

[JamesL]

Well, scripture says NOW are we the sons of God.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I believe the first time you sincerely call on Jesus to save you, he does. You are a son of God that very moment.

Do you sin afterward? Yes, and fellowship is broken, but we are saved just the same. We confess to be made right again with Jesus. It is just like our earthly family, if we sin against our wife, or brother, or sister, does that mean they are no longer our wife, or brother, or sister? No, but fellowship can be broken, you might get the cold shoulder until you apologize and ask forgiveness.

I think your problem was lack of assurance. When you did not "feel" saved you did not believe you were saved. So, you asked over and over and over again. Been there.

The problem was not that you needed to get saved (again), the problem was you needed to get sin out of your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=devfseWA9Lw

Watch this video carefully, because it answers your question. Watch the whole thing, watch it several times until you get it.

I don't see anything in your reply that addresses the publican or the woman at the well.

You didn't even attempt to demonstrate from either passage that either one was converted that day.


You also apparently didn't read what I wrote about "calling on" Jesus. It is not something you say to Him, it is to be "called by" His Name.


And you are right about one thing - I had no assurance. But not because I didn't "feel" saved, it's because I wasn't.

I thought "saved" meant placed in a position to obey God in order to earn my way to heaven - in other words, potentially saved

I had ZERO understanding of the cross, or the purpose of Jesus dying. If one had asked me why Jesus died, I would have said "because He loved me" only because that was all I was ever taught.

this supposed forgiveness I wanted was generic. In my mind, it was not a crediting of righteousness, it was just God saying "no harm, no foul". And it had no basis other than my own efforts - my confession of sin, my determination to stop sinning, my prayer, me, me, me

I had no understanding that Jesus is God in the flesh. To me, "Son" of God was similar to a Jehovah's Witness understanding. And I knew nothing of a bodily resurrection, either His or mine. I thought we would all shed our bodies at death and stay that way. Disembodied spirits forever.

Simply put, I was trying to obey God, so that I could make myself good enough to please Him. Sure, I needed for Him to let me have a fresh start, but it was not a rescue from sin's consequence.

Whenever I performed this ritual, I did feel saved. My conscience was comforted by a false hope of a false promise. I thought I was "saved" because of the works I had done. Then, if I continued in lifelong obedience to God, in the name of Christ, then I would be allowed through the Pearly Gates. But this comfort never lasted long. Only until I found that I had sinned again, and I had to do the whole ritual again and start over.

I made absolutely ZERO connection with Jesus dying and my eternal life


Then when actually confronted with the gospel, that Jesus died for the purpose of taking my sin upon Himself, and paying a debt that I could not pay, in order to rescue me from the eternal consequences of sin - that He took my place, to die as my substitute, to SAVE me...

I rejected it flatly. There was no way that I was going to simply trust Him to deliver me. I was determined to have some input, some responsibility, some part I could play.

It was an issue of pride, refusing to lay down my own effort.

 

[JonC]

Out of curiosity, if someone affirms the content of the "sinnner's prayer", that it is descriptive of their spiritual condition and relationship with Christ and their repentance & belief calling on the Lord to be saved, how many here would reply that that one is in no way saved?

 

[salzer mtn]

Can a Calvinist deny Lordship?

No one that believes the bible can deny Lordship. Whether you live or die, whether you are saved or lost Christ is Lord over you. Rom 14:7-9 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lords. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and the living.

 

[JamesL]

Out of curiosity, if someone affirms the content of the "sinnner's prayer", that it is descriptive of their spiritual condition and relationship with Christ and their repentance & belief calling on the Lord to be saved, how many here would reply that that one is in no way saved?

Can you clarify exactly?

The part I underlined runs together in a very confusing way

 

[Winman]

I don't see anything in your reply that addresses the publican or the woman at the well.

You didn't even attempt to demonstrate from either passage that either one was converted that day.


You also apparently didn't read what I wrote about "calling on" Jesus. It is not something you say to Him, it is to be "called by" His Name.


And you are right about one thing - I had no assurance. But not because I didn't "feel" saved, it's because I wasn't.

I thought "saved" meant placed in a position to obey God in order to earn my way to heaven - in other words, potentially saved

I had ZERO understanding of the cross, or the purpose of Jesus dying. If one had asked me why Jesus died, I would have said "because He loved me" only because that was all I was ever taught.

this supposed forgiveness I wanted was generic. In my mind, it was not a crediting of righteousness, it was just God saying "no harm, no foul". And it had no basis other than my own efforts - my confession of sin, my determination to stop sinning, my prayer, me, me, me

I had no understanding that Jesus is God in the flesh. To me, "Son" of God was similar to a Jehovah's Witness understanding. And I knew nothing of a bodily resurrection, either His or mine. I thought we would all shed our bodies at death and stay that way. Disembodied spirits forever.

Simply put, I was trying to obey God, so that I could make myself good enough to please Him. Sure, I needed for Him to let me have a fresh start, but it was not a rescue from sin's consequence.

Whenever I performed this ritual, I did feel saved. My conscience was comforted by a false hope of a false promise. I thought I was "saved" because of the works I had done. Then, if I continued in lifelong obedience to God, in the name of Christ, then I would be allowed through the Pearly Gates. But this comfort never lasted long. Only until I found that I had sinned again, and I had to do the whole ritual again and start over.

I made absolutely ZERO connection with Jesus dying and my eternal life


Then when actually confronted with the gospel, that Jesus died for the purpose of taking my sin upon Himself, and paying a debt that I could not pay, in order to rescue me from the eternal consequences of sin - that He took my place, to die as my substitute, to SAVE me...

I rejected it flatly. There was no way that I was going to simply trust Him to deliver me. I was determined to have some input, some responsibility, some part I could play.

It was an issue of pride, refusing to lay down my own effort.

Well, I didn't realize before that you did not know the gospel. That makes a difference don't you think? Most persons who are asked to pray the sinner's prayer have heard a presentation of the gospel. I know I was told the gospel.

Yes, I prayed and asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my heart. And it stuck. But that was after I had been taught that Jesus was the Son of God who died for my sins and rose from the dead.

I don't know of preachers who just tell people to say a prayer as you seem to have been told. Was this a Baptist church? Doesn't sound like any Baptist church I have ever been to. Every Baptist church I have been to clearly preaches the gospel before a person is asked to pray to Jesus to be saved.

 

[JonC]

Can you clarify exactly?

The part I underlined runs together in a very confusing way

Yes, sorry for the sloppy wording.

If I attend a church service and God is working in my life towards salvation, and I understand the gospel as presented in the “sinner’s prayer”: that is I understand and believe the work on the Cross, I have repented of my sins and am calling on Christ as my Lord and truly believing in Him as Savior…is that salvation impossible for me because I arrived at that stage of clarity through the “sinner’s prayer”? In other words, the “sinner’s prayer” summarized what had actually happened in my life and served to me as a point of clarity and calling on Christ.

I ask because this was in a large part how I was reached with the gospel. I am not very fond of using the “prayer” and I do not know that it is a genuine prayer more than a summary of how we are saved. But I know many (including me) who have been saved (not “easy believism”) by understanding the gospel through that prayer. And yes, I also know some who have been lulled into a false faith (IMHO) by its misuse. Personally, I believe that the prayer is nothing more than a summary, explanation and calling to obey the gospel.

So my question is how many here would deny one is saved who affirms the "sinner's prayer" (one who for the first time truly repents and believes and calls on the Lord)?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes, sorry for the sloppy wording.

If I attend a church service and God is working in my life towards salvation, and I understand the gospel as presented in the “sinner’s prayer”: that is I understand and believe the work on the Cross, I have repented of my sins and am calling on Christ as my Lord and truly believing in Him as Savior…is that salvation impossible for me because I arrived at that stage of clarity through the “sinner’s prayer”? In other words, the “sinner’s prayer” summarized what had actually happened in my life and served to me as a point of clarity and calling on Christ.

I ask because this was in a large part how I was reached with the gospel. I am not very fond of using the “prayer” and I do not know that it is a genuine prayer more than a summary of how we are saved. But I know many (including me) who have been saved (not “easy believism”) by understanding the gospel through that prayer. And yes, I also know some who have been lulled into a false faith (IMHO) by its misuse. Personally, I believe that the prayer is nothing more than a summary, explanation and calling to obey the gospel.

So my question is how many here would deny one is saved who affirms the "sinner's prayer" (one who for the first time truly repents and believes and calls on the Lord)?

you understand the gospel because it was meant for you, and because before you even heard it, the God of mercy has prepared your heart for it, and opened your eyes and ears to it.
you heard the voice of the Shepherd and recognized that Voice because you are His Sheep, have always been His sheep (before you were part of any timely fold), and will always be His sheep (even though you leave the timely fold).
Likewise, those who genuinely respond (keyword: genuinely, as in found in church, joyously listening to every message, even when trials and tribulations come) to the gospel, did so because God FIRST worked His will in them.
In everything concerning His fallen, and raised, child, GOD WAS, AND IS, FIRST TO MOVE.
Credit, therefore, is ALWAYS RIGHTFULLY HIS, not the gospel's, not the preacher's, not some sinner's prayer.
please take no offense at the bolds and capitals, they are there to merely emphasize.

 

[JonC]

you understand the gospel because it was meant for you, and because before you even heard it, the God of mercy has prepared your heart for it, and opened your eyes and ears to it.
you heard the voice of the Shepherd and recognized that Voice because you are His Sheep, have always been His sheep (before you were part of any timely fold), and will always be His sheep (even though you leave the timely fold).
Likewise, those who genuinely respond (keyword: genuinely, as in found in church, joyously listening to every message, even when trials and tribulations come) to the gospel, did so because God FIRST worked His will in them.
In everything concerning His fallen, and raised, child, GOD WAS, AND IS, FIRST TO MOVE.
Credit, therefore, is ALWAYS RIGHTFULLY HIS, not the gospel's, not the preacher's, not some sinner's prayer.
please take no offense at the bolds and capitals, they are there to merely emphasize.

Yes :thumbsup:, I was not saved by the gospel message presented in that prayer but by Christ. Think of all of those who have heard the "sinner's prayer" (as that is the topic, but it could be the gospel message in any form) and did not believe. The difference between those who believe and those who do not is the work of God (not the mode through which the gospel was delivered). God used the "sinner's prayer" to reach me that day...and I am forever grateful.

 

[Yeshua1]

When it comes to making salvation difficult vs easy, that can be looked at two ways. Adding a work to faith makes it "easy" because it gives people the psychological comfort that they did something to make grace effectual. It's easy on the psyche.

But to strip away all works, and simply rely upon Christ and His merits - to trust only what He's done on our behalf, without trying to add some ritual to make it effective, that IS difficult. It takes humility. I went through it. Coming to the point where I rejected my own effort, and hoped only in Christ, that was the most difficult thing I ever had to go through.

If the sinner's prayer were biblical, I would have been born again one of the 600-800 times I performed that worthless ritual. It reduces the work of the Holy Spirit by adding a human work.

I wonder where you get the idea that forgiveness necessarily equates to eternal life? You like to reference the publican, but where does Jesus say the man had a conversion?

Since you first believed, have you never prayed for forgiveness and mercy? I've been a believer for 15 years, but I prayed for forgiveness just this morning. And according to 1John 1:9, I went away forgiven.

Does that mean I was converted again this morning? I agree with Old Regular, when he says a sinner's prayer is for the believer. Believers pray, and God listens.

But that publican...Jesus said he went away justified. That MUST mean conversion, right? You must prove that one. Justified in what? You're trying to press into that passage something which is not stated. Demonstrate that he was an unbeliever before he beat on his chest.

Woman at the well....didn't she say "When Messiah comes..."? John 4:25

I contend that she was a believer already, looking for the consolation of Israel, the same as Simeon in Luke 2:25.

Where does any scripture say she was converted that day?

It is NOT the prayer in and by itself, but that the Lord has granted us a heart to receive Jesus as our Lord, that He now saved us, and we confess/profess that truth!

Our mouths proclaim outwardly what He had already done inwardly towards and in us!

 

[JamesL]

Well, I didn't realize before that you did not know the gospel. That makes a difference don't you think? Most persons who are asked to pray the sinner's prayer have heard a presentation of the gospel. I know I was told the gospel.

There is a way of "telling the gospel" as if it's simply a set of facts.
Fact - Jesus died.
Fact - Jesus rose.
Fact - Jesus loves you
Fact - Jesus is God in the flesh

But believing a bunch of facts is not the same as relying upon Him. It is not a set of facts which saves, it is the Man Himself who saves.

I might be in a financial burden, about to lose my house to foreclosure, and you come along and tell me some facts:
You know a rich man
He has lots of money in the bank
He's never had any debt

Ok, so what ? Believing those things about the man isn't going to help get me out of my financial misery, any more than believing the facts about Jesus is going to save anyone.

If you tell me that he put money in the bank, to be drawn out each month to pay my mortgage; If you tell me that it's taken care of, if I only believe him that it's finished. He's not expecting me to try to pay for it, he's got it covered.

That's a whole lot different from simply believing some facts about him and his money

Same with the gospel. You can tell someone that Jesus died, that He rose, that He's God in the flesh...Great Facts About Him. But so what? If you don't tell the person that their sin has been paid for, to simply trust Him, then you've shared a false gospel.

And along the same lines, suppose I believe the great facts about this man who has lots of money in the bank

Then I call the guy on the phone, to ask him if he'll pay my mortgage.

Can you honestly think I trust him to have already made the arrangements for my mortgage? Of course not. If I trusted him, I wouldn't have to ask. I would simply believe it's already done.

The mere fact that I would call him to ask, demonstrates that I don't trust him to have already done it. It would be akin to thinking that it can't be made effective unless something is required of me.

Yes, I prayed and asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my heart. And it stuck.

What ?!?

I've got to call baloney on that. Unless you can come up with a scripture verse where anyone was taught to ask Jesus to come into their heart.

Or that a prayer "sticks"

Scripture says Christ dwells in our heart through faith, not by asking him.

But that was after I had been taught that Jesus was the Son of God who died for my sins and rose from the dead.

So you believed some facts and prayed a prayer ?

When was it that you first relied upon Him?
When were you fully assured that what He promised, He is also able to deliver?

If you trusted Him before you prayed, then you were already a born again believer before you prayed

I don't know of preachers who just tell people to say a prayer as you seem to have been told.

I wasn't "just" told to pray a prayer. I'm beginning to think you don't read anyone's posts before you reply.

I was asked a series of questions, which I perceived as a checklist:
Do you believe you're a sinner? YES
Have YOU confessed your sins? -YES
Are YOU sorry for your sins? YES
Are YOU willing to turn from your sins? YES
Do YOU believe Jesus is the son of God (whatever that meant)? YES
Do YOU believe He died on a cross? YES
Are YOU willing to turn from your sins (which I took to mean STOP sinning) - YES
Are YOU willing to live your life for God? - YES
Now if YOU tell Jesus that you're sorry for your sins, and if YOU ask Him to forgive your sins, and if YOU ask Him to come into your heart, then He will.

Winman,
Do YOU see a common thread in all those questions?

The common thread is YOU. That's why I call it the VOO-DOO of YOU DO.

I was taught - not directly, but by implication - that there was a checklist of requirements for ME. If only I were sorry enough, if only I had acknowledged, if only I was willing, if only I had done all that was required, FIRST.

But the gospel is not man trying first, it is Christ crucified for a wretched sinner; Food for a hungry beggar, Healing for a heart stricken by infirmity; Water for a man who thirsts

It was preached form the pulpit of that little church, and this is verbatim:

You can't get to heaven on your mom's salvation, or your dad's salvation. No one can get you there but YOU

It sounded so right. I get myself there. But it was a false gospel.

Where in that checklist was Christ made to die in my place?
Where do you see that it is not by works?
Where do you see that it is to the one who hopes in Him?

And unfortunately, that is what I've heard in Christian circles my entire life

They explain all the necessary facts ABOUT Christ, then move swiftly into the man's portion of the deal, which usually amounts to about 95%.

Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, and died. Ok, that took all of about 12 seconds to say.

It might even be posited that He died to "make a way" for you to be saved.

Then on to the 95% of the deal that falls on man - If YOU believe these facts, if YOU turn from your sins, if YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU

12 seconds on the merits of Christ, and 12 minutes on man's part of the deal to make it happen.

Doesn't sound like any Baptist church I have ever been to. Every Baptist church I have been to clearly preaches the gospel before a person is asked to pray to Jesus to be saved.

I was raised in a Missionary Baptist church.

I went there from the age of 2 til I was 16. But honestly, I checked out around the age of 12 because I never could find concrete answers, or any assurance. I told my mom that I didn't want to go anymore, but she said I had to be 16 to make that kind of decision.

I longed for the day I turned 16, old enough to say BYE.

The day I turned 16 on a Monday, October 26, 1987. I woke up and the first thing I said to
my mom? - "Yesterday was that last time you'll see me at church."

I was spiritually exasperated from trying so hard to earn God's favor, that I didn't want anything more to do with it.


At the age of 27, I started attending an Assembly of God church with my mom. And you know what? It was the EXACT same message - the voodoo of you do

I never became a believer through anything I heard at that church. I had to find it in a book. And thank God I did

Since becoming a believer, I've attended two Southern Baptist churches, a Methodist church, a Bible Baptist church, another AoG church, and a Nazarene church. And you know what? It was still that same voodoo.


One SBC I attended, the viper at the podium put so much emphasis on "asking" that Christ became less than a footnote. I wanted to vomit.

 

[Amy.G]

Since becoming a believer, I've attended two Southern Baptist churches, a Methodist church, a Bible Baptist church, another AoG church, and a Nazarene church. And you know what? It was still that same voodoo.


One SBC I attended, the viper at the podium put so much emphasis on "asking" that Christ became less than a footnote. I wanted to vomit.

Just curious James. What kind of church do you attend now?

 

[JamesL]

If I attend a church service and God is working in my life towards salvation, and I understand the gospel as presented in the “sinner’s prayer”: that is I understand and believe the work on the Cross, I have repented of my sins and am calling on Christ as my Lord and truly believing in Him as Savior…is that salvation impossible for me because I arrived at that stage of clarity through the “sinner’s prayer”? In other words, the “sinner’s prayer” summarized what had actually happened in my life and served to me as a point of clarity and calling on Christ.

I ask because this was in a large part how I was reached with the gospel. I am not very fond of using the “prayer” and I do not know that it is a genuine prayer more than a summary of how we are saved. But I know many (including me) who have been saved (not “easy believism”) by understanding the gospel through that prayer. And yes, I also know some who have been lulled into a false faith (IMHO) by its misuse. Personally, I believe that the prayer is nothing more than a summary, explanation and calling to obey the gospel.

So my question is how many here would deny one is saved who affirms the "sinner's prayer" (one who for the first time truly repents and believes and calls on the Lord)?

I would say that one who affirms a conversion prayer simply believes a superstition. Is it possible to be a believer and also hold to unbiblical rituals? Yes.

The same way that a believer can also be afraid of the number 13, or black cats. Can a genuine believer also check his horoscope? Yes.

But aside from going into left field as I just did, there is a larger matter to consider:

There are two components to obtaining the grace which is found in Christ - merit and access

Every church that is considered "orthodox" believes that the merit is found only in Christ's death, and blood, to pay the penalty for our sin, and His resurrection as the validation that the Father truly counted His sacrifice worthy to redeem men.

But what about access? The opinions vary greatly

Roman Catholics believe the access is through belief and the sacraments

Church of Christ believes the access is through belief, confession of sins, turning from sin, and baptism

Many others believe the access is through belief, confession of sins, turning away from sin, and saying a prayer


It's amazing to me that so many reject baptismal access as being a work, yet espouse a prayer, which is another work. Work is work. Yet many are selective on which work they want to consider work.

Which kind of work condemns, and which kind is ok?

Is it possible for someone to hold to these works-based attempts at access, and yet be saved? Of course it is. But is it healthy to start someone off focused on their works? NEVER

I don't believe every Roman Catholic is hell bound, or that everyone in the Church of Christ is hell bound, and I don't believe that everyone in the Southern Baptist Convention is hell bound

The danger, and I mean a REAL danger, is that many times access is confused as merit. Even faith by itself can be confused as merit.

Or occasionally someone can come to a genuine faith in Christ, even with a misconception about access. Let me explain.


Suppose you attend a Church of Christ, and you are taught that access is through faith and baptism. You firmly believe that it is only by the merits of Christ that you might have eternal life. But you also believe that this merit is not made effective until you do your part, which would be baptism.

So you get baptized, and now you are either:
1) fully confident that you are saved because Christ died for you
2) fully confident that you are saved because you got baptized

In the first example, the person is looking to the merits of Christ to save him, and the supposed access through baptism is diminished.
In the second example, Christ's merits take a back seat, and the baptism becomes the merit

When there are works involved, whether merit or access, the works are almost always viewed by the potential convert as the merit

Why do you think the Church of Christ is accused of teaching works salvation? Because they put more emphasis on the access by works than the merit of Christ. They wind up having faith in baptism rather than faith in Christ

It's the same with "saying a prayer". One might walk away confident that he's saved because Christ died, or he might walk away confident that he's saved BECAUSE he prayed a prayer.

Well, if it's possible to walk away from a sinner's prayer fully trusting in Christ, why the big deal about saying the prayer?

The same reason that most folks make a big deal about baptismal regeneration. First, access is not by works - whether baptism, Eucharist, or prayer. Then, access all-too-quickly becomes merit in the minds of many.


But even faith itself can be viewed as the merit, to where someone has faith in faith

Just look at Winman. I've read, numerous times, where he's written that he's saved BECAUSE he has faith, or BECAUSE he believes the gospel, or BECAUSE he believes Jesus died for his sins

Now, this could either be very sloppy wording, or it could be the case of someone who has faith in faith, and not faith in Christ.

Based on other posts I've read from Winman, I am pretty convinced that it is very sloppy wording on his part. But what if it's not ??

There is a HUGE difference in these two statements, based on a couple of words:

1) I am saved because I believe Jesus died for my sins
2) I am saved because Jesus died for my sins

Those in group #1 say it's just a matter of semantics, while those in group #2 know the difference

Where would that leave the one who believes he is saved BECAUSE he said a prayer, which is most I've met

 

[JamesL]

It is NOT the prayer in and by itself, but that the Lord has granted us a heart to receive Jesus as our Lord, that He now saved us, and we confess/profess that truth!

Our mouths proclaim outwardly what He had already done inwardly towards and in us!

What about the ones in John 12:42-43?

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

 

[JamesL]

Just curious James. What kind of church do you attend now?

That's not quite a cut and dry answer, because I consider that I don't attend. But before anyone thinks I have forsaken the assembling of the saints, I need to explain what I mean.

A few years ago, while visiting my brother in Kentucky, to do electrical work at his church and then stay for a vacation, I had sort of an epiphany.

I noticed that the people in his church don't attend, they live. For them, church isn't a once a week event to attend. Like someone might attend a football game every Saturday.

They gather for worship, meals, teaching, fellowship, bearing each others' burdens, etc., but they don't attend. Those people come together every day. Not at a particular building, but with each other. Not every person every day, or the same person every day - but while I was there, my brother and I spent time with someone in his church every day.

And it's not just my brother doing it that way, it's virtually everyone in the church. They are a body with many members.

Before I went to visit my brother, I had moved to a small town (Buckner, Missouri) because my son started in an excellent Christian preschool there, which was a satellite of a non-denominational church/school about 45 minutes away.

I started "attending" a Southern Baptist Church in that town, considering it probably the most biblical of the options there. After about a year of my son being in that preschool, I felt God telling me that we would be moving to the town where the main school is located.

But feeling no further instruction along that vein, I became a member if SBC

After my visit with my brother, I became more involved at SBC, to the point that we were no longer attending - we were totally immersed.

But we were already associated with the body of believers who own my son's school (GCM). Our entire lives were centered around these two bodies of believers. And these two bodies interacted somewhat. The preschool, every year, was involved in VBS at SBC, for example

Anyway, about a year ago, I felt God directing us toward our move. My son transferred to the main school, and we commuted the 45 minutes each way. But I did not feel led to leave SBC or move - yet

Back in November, God said it was time to move, but not leave SBC. So we commuted the other way until January, when I felt God telling me it was time to be more involved with GCM

Our membership is still at SBC, and I have no desire to rescind it, as we still fellowship with them - albeit on a much smaller scale now.


As it relates to this thread involving the use of a sinner's prayer....

Do I consider those at SBC to be genuine believers, even with their use of a sinner's prayer? Yes, I do. As I've stated, I believe someone can be a believer having thought their access into grace began with a prayer. But that doesn't mean I endorse the use of a sinner's prayer. I am vehemently opposed to its use

Those at SBC Buckner know my persuasion in this matter. And I was even allowed to lead a bible study on being born again, where I included arguments against the use of a conversion prayer.

I was very impressed that they were willing to have their traditions challenged, and I have the utmost respect for the pastor

 

[Winman]

I would say that one who affirms a conversion prayer simply believes a superstition. Is it possible to be a believer and also hold to unbiblical rituals? Yes.

The same way that a believer can also be afraid of the number 13, or black cats. Can a genuine believer also check his horoscope? Yes.

But aside from going into left field as I just did, there is a larger matter to consider:

There are two components to obtaining the grace which is found in Christ - merit and access

Every church that is considered "orthodox" believes that the merit is found only in Christ's death, and blood, to pay the penalty for our sin, and His resurrection as the validation that the Father truly counted His sacrifice worthy to redeem men.

But what about access? The opinions vary greatly

Roman Catholics believe the access is through belief and the sacraments

Church of Christ believes the access is through belief, confession of sins, turning from sin, and baptism

Many others believe the access is through belief, confession of sins, turning away from sin, and saying a prayer


It's amazing to me that so many reject baptismal access as being a work, yet espouse a prayer, which is another work. Work is work. Yet many are selective on which work they want to consider work.

Which kind of work condemns, and which kind is ok?

Is it possible for someone to hold to these works-based attempts at access, and yet be saved? Of course it is. But is it healthy to start someone off focused on their works? NEVER

I don't believe every Roman Catholic is hell bound, or that everyone in the Church of Christ is hell bound, and I don't believe that everyone in the Southern Baptist Convention is hell bound

The danger, and I mean a REAL danger, is that many times access is confused as merit. Even faith by itself can be confused as merit.

Or occasionally someone can come to a genuine faith in Christ, even with a misconception about access. Let me explain.


Suppose you attend a Church of Christ, and you are taught that access is through faith and baptism. You firmly believe that it is only by the merits of Christ that you might have eternal life. But you also believe that this merit is not made effective until you do your part, which would be baptism.

So you get baptized, and now you are either:
1) fully confident that you are saved because Christ died for you
2) fully confident that you are saved because you got baptized

In the first example, the person is looking to the merits of Christ to save him, and the supposed access through baptism is diminished.
In the second example, Christ's merits take a back seat, and the baptism becomes the merit

When there are works involved, whether merit or access, the works are almost always viewed by the potential convert as the merit

Why do you think the Church of Christ is accused of teaching works salvation? Because they put more emphasis on the access by works than the merit of Christ. They wind up having faith in baptism rather than faith in Christ

It's the same with "saying a prayer". One might walk away confident that he's saved because Christ died, or he might walk away confident that he's saved BECAUSE he prayed a prayer.

Well, if it's possible to walk away from a sinner's prayer fully trusting in Christ, why the big deal about saying the prayer?

The same reason that most folks make a big deal about baptismal regeneration. First, access is not by works - whether baptism, Eucharist, or prayer. Then, access all-too-quickly becomes merit in the minds of many.


But even faith itself can be viewed as the merit, to where someone has faith in faith

Just look at Winman. I've read, numerous times, where he's written that he's saved BECAUSE he has faith, or BECAUSE he believes the gospel, or BECAUSE he believes Jesus died for his sins

Now, this could either be very sloppy wording, or it could be the case of someone who has faith in faith, and not faith in Christ.

Based on other posts I've read from Winman, I am pretty convinced that it is very sloppy wording on his part. But what if it's not ??

There is a HUGE difference in these two statements, based on a couple of words:

1) I am saved because I believe Jesus died for my sins
2) I am saved because Jesus died for my sins

Those in group #1 say it's just a matter of semantics, while those in group #2 know the difference

Where would that leave the one who believes he is saved BECAUSE he said a prayer, which is most I've met

Friend, you must BELIEVE the gospel. If a person is saved simply because Jesus died for their sins, that is universalism.

John 3:16 doesn't say a person is saved because God loved the world and gave his only begotten son. It doesn't say:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is how you seem to view this verse, but that is not what it says. It says;

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The scriptures say you must believe in Jesus to be saved.

Now, what does it mean to believe? Believe means to trust upon or rely upon. A good example would be a skydiver. When they jump out of a plane, are they depending on their own ability to get them to the ground safely? NO, they depend completely on their parachute, if that parachute fails, they die.

Another example might be brain surgery. You are told you have a tumor that will kill you. The doctor explains that he can operate and remove the tumor. So you arrive on the scheduled day and allow the surgeon to put you asleep and operate on your brain. This is trust, this is relying on the doctor to save you. If you do not go to the doctor and trust him to operate on you, you will die. Likewise, if you do not go to Jesus in your heart, he cannot save you. You are not just automatically saved because Jesus died for all men's sins.

Calling on Jesus does not save you, the calling is simply an outward expression of the heart calling on Jesus. It is a casting of one's self upon Jesus to save. This is trust or reliance upon Jesus.

The best example is Jesus himself who willingly died on the cross placing his spirit in his Father's hands to save him.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus was willing to die, to give up the ghost, fully depending on his Father to raise him from the dead. This is belief, this is trust, this is reliance.

But you must BELIEVE to be saved.

I have the feeling you have been terrified by Calvinist theology that makes a person fearful to perform any action to be saved. Jesus said COME unto me, but you are afraid to COME because you think that is a work. NONSENSE.

Jesus is not going to reject you for doing the very thing he commanded you to do. Quit listening to the false doctrines of men.

 

[Winman]

I have to be off for work, but I will give you one more example from scripture James.

Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Jesus gave Nicodemus this very story of the fiery serpents in the wilderness to demonstrate what believing is.

Did these persons that were bitten by the fiery serpents have to perform an action? YES. they had to look.

If they did not look to the brass serpent, they did not live. This was an action, but the action showed faith in the heart.

Nevertheless, it is not faith that saves, though faith is required. It is Jesus himself who saves us, only he can do that.

The point is, God is not going to reject you for doing what you were commanded to do. Jesus told the woman at the well that if she ASKED, he would give her living water, which is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is not suddenly going to tell this woman he cannot save her because she ASKED and that was a work. You have been frightened by the Calvinists.

 

[Yeshua1]

faith is a requirement of God to have Him save a sinner and grant them justification before him, correct?

IF you cannot receive Him by/thru faith in Him, how do we get saved, receiving the new nature/Holy Spirit then?

 

[JamesL]

faith is a requirement of God to have Him save a sinner and grant them justification before him, correct?

IF you cannot receive Him by/thru faith in Him, how do we get saved, receiving the new nature/Holy Spirit then?

Yes, faith is the only "requirement"

But faith is not some kind of active substance, where God gives you a spiritual water gun and you point it and pull the trigger. Faith in Christ is simply being fully convinced that what He set out to do, He finished.

Faith is not a decision we make. If it were, Jesus should have never chided the apostles for lack if faith after they believed in Him. They would have simply decided to believe, and it would have been settled.

He said some believed having seen, while others would believe having not seen. He told Thomas to see His hands and feet. Thomas would not believe until he was convinced.

Paul, in Acts, went through the cities convincing people, they "became" believers.


Becoming convinced of the gospel is purely a work if the Holy Spirit, not us. But we bear the burden of refusing to be convinced. It's called a stubborn heart, when we refuse to believe.