Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.

[Brother Bob]

Rev 2:
20: Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22: Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

It was not fonication of the body but they had worshipped idols and being they could "repent", it was not a sin unto death they committed. Exactly what kind of sin they committed, I know not but it was not unto death for they were able to "repent". Also, where they were really "saved", I question.

During the time of the seven churches of Asia, it was a time of transition and there were many among the "saved", who had not fully accepted Christ.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jo 5:17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. Because we at times struggle with scripture does not mean God lied to us.

Again, there is a sin unto death that the "saved" commit not.

HandD;
Maybe you could give us an answer for this scripture;

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

or this one:

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[HankD]

When you know to do Good and do it not then it is sin. Yes fornication will send you to hell. Sin will send you to hell. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these Adultery, FORNICATION,uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulation, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envings, murder, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the witch I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Charles, Jesus call these people "my servants". They Himself said they are His and He wont send them to hell.

HankD

 

[DHK]

No I do not. Read all of my threeds in hear. I am not making myself something I an't. I am just saying what the bible tells me.

First, if you are not as holy God as God is, you cannot go to heaven. God will not allow anything unholy into heaven. So that excludes you. You need to find out how you can be holy like God is holy.

It said if you sin you are of the devil.

That is not what 1John 3:8 teaches.

I do not understand that a Christain can sin but still go to heaven.

Then study 1John 1:9. Why was it written to Christians? Why did the Apostle John include himself, as a sinner ("we") needig to confess his sin?

I am a sinner but I am going to hell because I sin. You are a Christain sinner but you are going to heaven.

Where does the Bibe teach that you go to Hell because you are a sinner? One goes to hell because he has rejected Christ as his Savior (John 3:17,36)

This is what I do not understand . Do you sin DHK? What does that make you If you do sin? Does it make you a Christain or a sinner? Does sinners go to heaven or hell?

Once I was foolish, and sin ruled my heart,
Causing my footsteps from God to depart;
Jesus hath found me, happy my case;
I now am a sinner, saved by grace!

Only a sinner, saved by grace!
Only a sinner, saved by grace!
This is my story, to God be the glory—
I’m only a sinner, saved by grace!
(James M Gray)



Yes sinners go to heaven; those who are saved by the grace of God. They are still sinners, only saved ones.

I remeber you wrote to me on hear and said sin is all the same. So if sin is all the same and you sin at all you are going to Hell.

No, I am not going to Hell. I have the gift of eternal life. God would be a liar if I was going to Hell. Eternal means eternal, not temporary. He cannot take eternal away and make it into temporary. God does not lie.


There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:1).

So how does someone who still sin go to heaven?

By the grace of God, and faith in the sacrifice of Christ.

I know we have all sin and come short of the glory of God. So if sin is all the same then it is all unto death.

No, the consequence of sin is death (Rom.6:23). You do not know what "the sin unto death" is. Only God knows that. That is something you need not worry about. God judges sin, and will do so in His own time. You need to worry about your own sin, and your own relationship to God, not other people.

So that sin that you do as a Christain is unto death. That Christain is still dieing going down to a devils hell.

The only sin that sends a person to Hell is rejection of Christ. A Christian doesn't do that. A Christian isn't going to Hell. He has the gift of eternal life which can never be taken away. Since you don't know what "the sin unto death" is, don't worry about it. It is in God's hands.

So if sin is all the same then that sin he was talking about in 1 John is the same . He that sinneth is of the devil. So if you sinn you are of what?

1John 3:4 If I sin I have broken God's law, and according 1John 1:9 I need to confess that sin to restore my fellowship with God, not my salvation. I will not go to Hell. My salvation is secure in Christ.

So let us see what the bible sayeth about this. 1 John chapter 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this PURPOSE the Son of God was MANIFESTED, that he might DESTROY the WORKS of the devil.What is the works of the devil? (SIN) I am tring to find God and I am tring stop doing them sins that seperate me form the love of God.

The works of the devil were destroyed at the cross. Read 1John 5:4. "Whosoever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."
Satan was defeated at the cross.
You need to stop quoting 1John 3:8 and stop dwelling on it because you don't know what it means. You keep taking it out of its context and making it mean something other than what it is intended to say.

There are alot of thing I need to prove on.I am not judgeing you or anyone else. I just thought I would come on hear to get some Christain points. Please answer this ? How can a Christain go to heaven sinning and why do a sinner that an't a christain go to hell for sinning.

You go to Hell because you reject Christ.
You go to Heaven because you receive Christ.
All of mankind are sinners.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God--even you.

 

[Brother Bob]

DHK; First, if you are not as holy God as God is, you cannot go to heaven. God will not allow anything unholy into heaven. So that excludes you. You need to find out how you can be holy like God is holy.

I know its not to me, but we none are as Holy as He is, but will in the resurrection be complete, when the outward man receives his change. The fleshly man can not even go to heaven, the way it is now "corruptable" of which God is not.

 

[HankD]

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

or this one:

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Comapre this to the Revelation passage written by the same human author John whom the Spirit of Christ moved Him to say that His servants were "commiting fornication". What does it matter what kind of sin it is? IMO it was the real thing, they were having immoral relations.

Obviously Scripture can't contradict itself.

When Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters He didn't mean it was impossible, He meant and even said that if we did, we would hate the one and love the other. "cannot" means that in cannot be done without a consequence.

Here in the State of Washington the laws says that you cannot drive an automobile without a vaild license, yet people do it every day. You cannot drive an automobile in WA without a valid license without suffering the consequence.

A Chirstian cannot sin without a consequence. Usually chastisement leading to purification, but if it is serious enough or prolonged without repentance then physical death.

This in my opinion is "the sin unto death" which a brother can commit.

If someone says that they are born again yet are continously in a state of sinning then they are probably not saved or ready to be taken home at the hand of our heavenly Father.

My view of the Scripture concerning this subject.

HankD

 

[Brother Bob]

If someone says that they are born again yet are continously in a state of sinning then they are probably not saved or ready to be taken home at the hand of our heavenly Father.

My view of the Scripture concerning this subject.

HankD

Do you agree that Rev is a book of symbolics in many cases?

Also, I am glad for how you believe in your final statement above.

Let me ask a very harsh and direct question of you, that I have already ask of DHK:

1. Do you believe a person who said they were saved but was in the act of adultery and lightning hit them and killed them in the very act, would still go to heaven and sing with the angels? DHK; blames me for asking this question, but it actually happened to a couple in Fla., who belonged to our church, and they were found, still in that position.

When Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters He didn't mean it was impossible, He meant and even said that if we did, we would hate the one and love the other. "cannot" means that in cannot be done without a consequence.

I disagree, I do believe He is saying its impossible. Where do you get: "cannot" means that in cannot be done without a consequence.

A Chirstian cannot sin without a consequence. Usually chastisement leading to purification, but if it is serious enough or prolonged without repentance then physical death.

I think scripture tells us that a brother can sin, but he can not sin unto death. Lord said not to even pray for him.

I really think people get mixed up in not realizing there are 2 men. There is a fleshly man with a fleshly mind, and there is the inward man with the mind of Christ. We know, or at least should know, the fleshly man has not been born again, or he would not have to die. The inward man is born again and has been cleaned up from sin and when death comes, he will separate from the body and go to be with Jesus until the resurrection. The fleshly man can not go to heaven, without death and a change. The inward man has already been changed, has the mind of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and "cannot sin".

as many as are led by the Spirit of God, are the sons of God.

The Spirit of God does not lead a man (inward man) to sin.

 

[HankD]

I disagree, I do believe He is saying its impossible. Where do you get: "cannot" means that in cannot be done without a consequence.

From the Scripture:

KJV Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.​

He explained what He meant, serving two masters results in hating the one and loving the other. It follows that He means without a consequence.. Serving two masters will result in you hating one and loving the other.​

What is the application here?​

Paul explains:

Apparently the Corinthian Christians were still frequenting the temple of their idols from their former life in the flesh...​

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils (obviously from the text this is exactly what they were doing)
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.​

The consequence here is "we provoke the Lord to jealousy".​

Paul earlier complained that these Corinthian Christians were carnal and later stated the consequence...​

1 Corinthians 3

KJV 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.​

In short, you cannot expect God's blessing having one foot in the world and one foot in heaven. It might work for a while because He is patient and He loves us and will correct us if we yield to Him and His reproval.
But if we balk, sooner or later His patience will come to an end and...

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


HankD

 

[Brother Bob]

1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
In short, you cannot expect God's blessing having one foot in the world and one foot in heaven. It might work for a while because He is patient and He loves us and will correct us if we yield to Him and His reproval.
But if we balk, sooner or later His patience will come to an end and...

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

You make a good case here, which I once again will take you back to the outward man (fleshly) and the inward man which is led by the Spirit of God and therefore there is a contineous warefare. I do not believe this to be a sin unto death however but a sin unto chastisement, of which sometimes even death, to keep any further sin.

KJV Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.​

He explained what He meant, serving two masters results in hating the one and loving the other. It follows that He means without a consequence.. Serving two masters will result in you hating one and loving the other.​

What is the application here?​

Paul explains:​

Apparently the Corinthian Christians were still frequenting the temple of their idols from their former life in the flesh...​

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils (obviously from the text this is exactly what they were doing)
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.​

The consequence here is "we provoke the Lord to jealousy".​

Paul earlier complained that these Corinthian Christians were carnal and later stated the consequence...​

This part however, no man can serve two masters. For the Lord to be your Master, He too would have to agree to do so, and if you have one foot in the world, I don't think the Lord will have a part in it, for He said; I will spew you out of my mouth. Now depends upon what the sin is for the Lord to spew you out of His mouth. If it is a sin not unto death, the Lord will chastise you. No need to go any farther with the sin that is unto death, for I do not believe the "saved" can commit such acts. I don't believe they were ever saved to start with. IMO

So, I see your point of serving two Masters as long as the sin is a sin which is not unto death, if you see what I am saying.

 

[DHK]

So, I see your point of serving two Masters as long as the sin is a sin which is not unto death, if you see what I am saying.

How can you judge that which God only knows. It is God alone that know what "a sin unto death" is. He decides, not you. Can you decide for Him? Do you know His mind?
Would you have killed those who abused the Lord's Table? (1Cor.11:30)
Would you have killed those that showed hypocrisy? (Annanias and Sapphira)
I am glad that you are not God.
It is God that decides; not you. You do not know which sins are sins unto death--only God does. If you lie too much God may kill you (as in any person), and that would be a sin unto death. But you don't know that. Only God does.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is God that decides; not you. You do not know which sins are sins unto death--only God does. If you lie too much God may kill you (as in any person), and that would be a sin unto death. But you don't know that. Only God does.__________________
DHK

I am glad I am not God also for I would have to judge you for making a false accusation against me, calling me a liar.

I only know what God tells us and that is if you don't go to Heaven, then you go to the second death.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

God told me this many, There are others. :thumbs:

God says they will not inherit the Kingdom of God, you say they do. Now who should I believe, God or you?

 

[DHK]

I am glad I am not God also for I would have to judge you for making a false accusation against me, calling me a liar.

I only know what God tells us and that is if you don't go to Heaven, then you go to the second death.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

God told me this many, There are others. :thumbs:

God says the Corinthians were those things. Read on. Such were some of you
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Those sins in the past do not keep them out of heaven.
Nowhere in the Bible do those sins keep a person out of heaven. Nowhere in the Bible are they called "sins unto death." The only sin that keeps one out of heaven is the sin of rejecting Christ as Savior. You have yet to prove your point. Again, lying could be a sin unto death. In fact, when quoting such verses why not add this one to your list which does include lying:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Have you ever told a lie Bob? Don't lie to me, now.

 

[Brother Bob]

God says the Corinthians were those things. Read on. Such were some of you
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Those sins in the past do not keep them out of heaven.

neither do mine for Jesus forgive me of those sins and that is why I am a Christian now.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Have you ever told a lie Bob? Don't lie to me, now.
__________________
DHK

You know DHK; you think because you failed in many things or at least some things that everyone does. I have always be conseous of telling a lie and if I ever told a "lie" since I been a Christian, I do not know of it. According to you I have, even on here. You consider when someone makes a misstatement, that it is a lie, of someone has a change of mind, it is a lie. A "lie" is when you with the intent to deceive someone, you tell them something, knowing it to be false.

Being you brought Rev 21:8 into the discussion, how do you get around there will be no liars in heaven, when you openly admit that you lie.

Hbr 10:26¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[DHK]

neither do mine for Jesus forgive me of those sins and that is why I am a Christian now.

And have you ever sinned since the time that you became a Christian?

 

[Brother Bob]

Sure, quite often. I have even spoken quite harshly to you several times, I doubt if God was pleased with me, so I ask Him always to please forgive me and give me more patience. I have never did any of the sins unto death that I listed above. I have never committed any of the following, since being a Christian: fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers.

Nor have I ever delibertly tried to decieve anyone since being a Christian.

 

[charles_creech78]

And have you ever sinned since the time that you became a Christian?[/QUO

 

[charles_creech78]

And have you ever sinned since the time that you became a Christian?

Have you sin after being born again? DHK Do you teach the gospel at church and sin?

 

[charles_creech78]

Sure, quite often. I have even spoken quite harshly to you several times, I doubt if God was pleased with me, so I ask Him always to please forgive me and give me more patience. I have never did any of the sins unto death that I listed above. I have never committed any of the following, since being a Christian: fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers.

Nor have I ever delibertly tried to decieve anyone since being a Christian.

Amen brother Bob. 1 john 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the TRUTH is not in us.:applause:

 

[DHK]

Amen brother Bob. 1 john 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the TRUTH is not in us.:applause:

1John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law.
James teaches If you break the law in one point you are guilty of breaking it all.
Romans 3:23 teaches that sin is coming short of the glory of God--missing the mark.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Now he that said, do not commit adultery said also, do not be disgruntled, obnoxious, anxious, etc.
All sin is the same in God's sight. Thus all sins are sins unto death. If you are worried about something and you die before you have a chance to repent, then according to Bob you would go to Hell. Likewise yourself, it is sin. You can't go to heaven because worry is sin.

 

[HankD]

Look brethren there are many ways for us to fall into sin.

Have you ever gone 26 miles per hour or more in a 25MPH zone.

If so, you have violated this Scripture:

KJV 1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.​

Ever crossed the street against the light? again you disobeyed the Word.

Take a look at this list.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.​

Have you prayed without ceasing? If so why are you here debating at the BB, go back to the prayer closet and keep praying.​

Have you given thanks to God for even the bad things like getting the flu because it says in everything give thanks.​

How do you treat your wife? Would your wife say that you are sinless?​

Gossip?​

Or compared yourself in your mind to someone else?
​

KJV 2 Corinthians 10:12b

...but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.​

​

Every epistle in the NT warns the children of God against sinning.​

KJV Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.​

Of course if we walk closely with the Lord these "little" wilfull things will diminish more and more.
But they will always happen until we "see Him as He is".​

1 John 1:9.​

HankD​

 

[saturneptune]

Can you explain the salvation difference between David and Peter vs Judas? Compared to our standards of judging sin, David was the worst.