Uh no your application of those verses is wrong. Just because the disciples understood Christ does not prove understanding the gospel via the word is a gift.
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Can An Unregenerate Man Repent?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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Uh no your application of those verses is wrong. Just because the disciples understood Christ does not prove understanding the gospel via the word is a gift.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
@Revmitchell :
More for your consideration:
3) " Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).
Here we see that Christ is identifying that the Jews do not believe His words.
He then tells them why they do not...
Because He that is "of" God hears God's words...
Those that are not, don't.
Why did the rest of the people ( outside of His disciples ) around Jesus not hear?
Because they were not "of" God and were not able to hear His words and believe them.
A limitation is therefore specified by Christ as to who will hear God's words and who will not...
Similarly, it is given in the behalf of Christ for someone to believe on Him, as Philippians 1:29 clearly states.
Those to whom it has not been given to, will not believe.
Belief is also a gift, right along with hearing God's words and believing them.
If you would like more Scriptures as to what some of the gifts of God are to His children, I can present them, Mark.
They include the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life and many others.
May God bless you in your ongoing studies of His word, sir.
More for your consideration:
3) " Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).
Here we see that Christ is identifying that the Jews do not believe His words.
He then tells them why they do not...
Because He that is "of" God hears God's words...
Those that are not, don't.
Why did the rest of the people ( outside of His disciples ) around Jesus not hear?
Because they were not "of" God and were not able to hear His words and believe them.
A limitation is therefore specified by Christ as to who will hear God's words and who will not...
Similarly, it is given in the behalf of Christ for someone to believe on Him, as Philippians 1:29 clearly states.
Those to whom it has not been given to, will not believe.
Belief is also a gift, right along with hearing God's words and believing them.
If you would like more Scriptures as to what some of the gifts of God are to His children, I can present them, Mark.
They include the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life and many others.
May God bless you in your ongoing studies of His word, sir.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
We can agree to disagree.
To me, they clearly establish the fact that only certain people hear God's words, because it has been given to them to hear.
Once again, we see in the passage below that only certain people think that the Gospel is foolishness, while others believe it to be the power of God:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-24 ).
"Them which are called" believe it to be the power of God.
Actually it says to those of us who are saved. Then it says to those who are called. Of course understanding election as corporate and only occurs after we are already in Him according to ephesians it says nothing about the gospel being a gift prior to salvation.
How about
For God so loved the world,
that he
gave
his only begotten Son,
that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
?
Gave first
then believeth.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Romans 8 and 9 also entirely refers to election as individual.
Calling comes before justification, so the called at first are not saved. And all those called become justified.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26 and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what complete unbiblical rubbish!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Lodic
Well-Known Member
As you and @AustinC have noted, Owen is definitely not for a quick read. A few months ago I read "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". A friend had recommended that to help me understand Reformed Theology. Not sure if Owen helped, but I've read a few by R.C. Sproul and I frequently visit his Ligonier website. I still don't completely understand, but I am learning.I know I just finished his book on The Holy Spirit and now I'm working on Pink... Brother Glen
Can an unregenerate person repent? Of course, every person God saves repented while unregenerate.
Total Spiritual inability is fiction. Matthew 23:13
The bogus claim is that the unregenerate are unable to will to be saved, yet Romans 9:16 refers to lost people willing to be saved.
Total Spiritual inability is fiction. Matthew 23:13
The bogus claim is that the unregenerate are unable to will to be saved, yet Romans 9:16 refers to lost people willing to be saved.
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Calvinists Believe that Regeneration Precedes Faith
When Christ called to Lazarus to come out of the grave, Lazarus had no life in him so that he could hear, sit up, and emerge. There was not a flicker of life in him. If he was to be able to hear Jesus calling him and to go to Him, then Jesus would have to make him alive. Jesus resurrected him and then Lazarus could respond. [Similarly,] the unsaved, the unregenerate, is spiritually dead (Eph. 2). He is unable to ask for help unless God changes his heart of stone into a heart of flesh, and makes him alive spiritually (Eph. 2:5). Then, once he is born again, he can for the first time turn to Jesus, expressing sorrow for his sins and asking Jesus to save him (Palmer, Five Points, 18-19).
Abraham Kuyper observed that, prior to regeneration, a sinner ‘has all the passive properties belonging to a corpse … [Therefore] every effort to claim for the sinner the minutest co-operation in this first grace destroys the gospel, severs the artery of the Christian confession and is anti-scriptural in the highest degree.’ Like a spiritual corpse, he is unable to make a single move toward God, think a right thought about God, or even respond to God – unless God first brings this spiritually dead corpse to life (Boice and Ryken, Doctrines of Grace, 74).
Man is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). He cannot make himself new, or create new life in himself. He must be born of God. Then, with the new nature of God, he sees Christ for who he really is, and freely receives Christ for all that he is. The two acts (new birth and faith) are so closely connected that in experience we cannot distinguish them. God begets us anew and the first glimmer of life in the newborn child is faith (Piper, Five Points, 35).
The Reformed view … teaches that before a person can choose Christ … he must be born again … one does not first believe and then become reborn. … A cardinal doctrine of Reformed theology is the maxim, “Regeneration precedes faith” (Sproul, Chosen by God, 10, 72).
A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because has been regenerated (Pink, The Sovereignty of God).
When Christ called to Lazarus to come out of the grave, Lazarus had no life in him so that he could hear, sit up, and emerge. There was not a flicker of life in him. If he was to be able to hear Jesus calling him and to go to Him, then Jesus would have to make him alive. Jesus resurrected him and then Lazarus could respond. [Similarly,] the unsaved, the unregenerate, is spiritually dead (Eph. 2). He is unable to ask for help unless God changes his heart of stone into a heart of flesh, and makes him alive spiritually (Eph. 2:5). Then, once he is born again, he can for the first time turn to Jesus, expressing sorrow for his sins and asking Jesus to save him (Palmer, Five Points, 18-19).
Abraham Kuyper observed that, prior to regeneration, a sinner ‘has all the passive properties belonging to a corpse … [Therefore] every effort to claim for the sinner the minutest co-operation in this first grace destroys the gospel, severs the artery of the Christian confession and is anti-scriptural in the highest degree.’ Like a spiritual corpse, he is unable to make a single move toward God, think a right thought about God, or even respond to God – unless God first brings this spiritually dead corpse to life (Boice and Ryken, Doctrines of Grace, 74).
Man is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). He cannot make himself new, or create new life in himself. He must be born of God. Then, with the new nature of God, he sees Christ for who he really is, and freely receives Christ for all that he is. The two acts (new birth and faith) are so closely connected that in experience we cannot distinguish them. God begets us anew and the first glimmer of life in the newborn child is faith (Piper, Five Points, 35).
The Reformed view … teaches that before a person can choose Christ … he must be born again … one does not first believe and then become reborn. … A cardinal doctrine of Reformed theology is the maxim, “Regeneration precedes faith” (Sproul, Chosen by God, 10, 72).
A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because has been regenerated (Pink, The Sovereignty of God).
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm not a Calvinist ( but I often get labeled as one by people who don't believe in election, predestination and so forth ), and I believe that regeneration ( the new birth ) precedes faith and belief.
To me, it can be established from Acts of the Apostles 16:14, among others.
I agree, sir.
See my above referencing Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
Also, I clearly see another reason why someone believes:
" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand." ( John 10:24-29 ).
Here I see that the Jews were questioning Christ and asking them why He was causing them to doubt who He was.
Jesus answers and tells them that He did tell them before...but they didn't believe.
Then He tells them why they did not believe:
Because they were not His sheep.
In other words, in order to believe on Christ, one must be "of" His sheep.
His sheep ( as opposed to the "goats", see Matthew 25 ) hear His voice...
He knows them ( as opposed to never knowing them, see Matthew 7:21-23 ) and they follow Him, not false teachers ( see John 10:4-5 ).
They have been given the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ) and they shall never perish;
Because none is more powerful than the Lord Himself and He keeps them ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
Note:
While I like many things that Pink had to say, I'm not "Reformed" and have never been exposed to that tradition.
I simply study the Bible and out comes "Calvinism"...although it wasn't always that way.
I wish you well, and may God bless you, sir.
Liberals like to redefine words and give them their own meaning.
If a person has not been born anew they are unregenerate. Simple really
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
And Christ has 'other' sheep (they belong to Him) who have not yet heard His voice and when they do hear His voice they will follow Him and joined into the one flock.I'm not a Calvinist ( but I often get labeled as one by people who don't believe in election, predestination and so forth ), and I believe that regeneration ( the new birth ) precedes faith and belief.
To me, it can be established from Acts of the Apostles 16:14, among others.
I agree, sir.
See my above referencing Acts of the Apostles 16:14.
Also, I clearly see another reason why someone believes:
" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand." ( John 10:24-29 ).
Here I see that the Jews were questioning Christ and asking them why He was causing them to doubt who He was.
Jesus answers and tells them that He did tell them before...but they didn't believe.
Then He tells them why they did not believe:
Because they were not His sheep.
In other words, in order to believe on Christ, one must be "of" His sheep.
His sheep ( as opposed to the "goats", see Matthew 25 ) hear His voice...
He knows them ( as opposed to never knowing them, see Matthew 7:21-23 ) and they follow Him, not false teachers ( see John 10:4-5 ).
They have been given the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ) and they shall never perish;
Because none is more powerful than the Lord Himself and He keeps them ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
Note:
While I like many things that Pink had to say, I'm not "Reformed" and have never been exposed to that tradition.
I simply study the Bible and out comes "Calvinism"...although it wasn't always that way.
I wish you well, and may God bless you, sir.
Christ is the great shepherd of the sheep, which includes His foreknown to Him sheep that have not yet heard His voice.
.
John 10:16
And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring and impel those also; and they will listen to My voice and heed My call, and so there will be [they will become] one flock under one Shepherd.
YLT
and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
ESV
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Hebrews 13
20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21 equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Total Spiritual inability is unbiblical. I have cited multiple verses.
In Matthew 23:13 we have unregenerate people seeking God, actually in the process of entering the kingdom. Yet they were prevented from going in.
In Romans 9:16 we have people willing to be saved, the opposite of choosing not to be saved. Thus all people are not cursed with total spiritual inability.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
They dont willeth themselves to be saved, the entire chapter is focused on how it is the mercy of God people get saved,
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
And Matthew 23:13, is not absolute, conditions will change for them, no one person can permanently prevent another from entering the kingdom of God, if that was possible, the devil would make sure none got saved. He tries his hardest anyway, but gets defeated by the Holy Spirit every time God saves someone according to His mercy for them.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The reformed/calvinists are still trying to get their unbiblical nonsense as something taught in the Bible! They even believe that a sinner needs to be born again twice to get to heaven 
The fact that some men will to be saved is biblical according to Romans 9:16, therefore the doctrine of total spiritual inability is unbiblical.
And Matthew 23:13 again demonstrates total spiritual inability does not afflict all persons.
The doctrine of total spiritual inability has once again been shown to be unbiblical, and advocates have once again denied this obvious truth.
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