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Can An Unregenerate Man Repent?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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Sai
Well-Known Member
Christ died for all. Only the elect respond. The elect exercises their will over and above the will’s inability to repent by divine enabling of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore all men are savable but none left to himself can exercise his will to repent.
God’s plan of salvation included the enabling of God’s elect to believe the gospel. The cross, part of the plan is not the only saving instrumentation.
The only argument you can make against the above is to attack the so called “fairness” of God which by the way is an intellectual accusation by men against the character of God.
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Therefore all men are savable but none left to himself can exercise his will to repent.
God’s plan of salvation included the enabling of God’s elect to believe the gospel. The cross, part of the plan is not the only saving instrumentation.
The only argument you can make against the above is to attack the so called “fairness” of God which by the way is an intellectual accusation by men against the character of God.
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
YLT
`Known from the ages to God are all His works;
NKJV
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
John 3, those deeds have been done in God, for those who came to the light (Christ)
v20, the evil works done by men, those practicing evil do not come to the light( Christ),
v21, those who do the truth, their works (deeds) clearly seen, those deeds (what they did) have been done in God
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
NKJV
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
The work of God is that you believe in His Son, and in that work God never fails. And of those works God knew from eternity what He would do regarding you coming to Christ individually.
`Known from the ages to God are all His works;
NKJV
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
John 3, those deeds have been done in God, for those who came to the light (Christ)
v20, the evil works done by men, those practicing evil do not come to the light( Christ),
v21, those who do the truth, their works (deeds) clearly seen, those deeds (what they did) have been done in God
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
NKJV
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
The work of God is that you believe in His Son, and in that work God never fails. And of those works God knew from eternity what He would do regarding you coming to Christ individually.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Is this verse not so? If so then this verse must also be so
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Both are so because they are both said by the same God.Jesus and the Father are one in the same
You don't seem to see the first verse because it doesn't fit your theology. If all men are drawn all men can be saved If we come to Him we will be saved as in Jn. 6:44
The first says He will draw all men unto Him and when they come they will be saved.
But you claim they can't come when we are all drawn.
What is it do Calvinist want to prevent as many as possible from coming to Christ?Is there not enough room in heaven?
MB.
Tsalagi
Member
In a close parallel to Jude Peter says these condemned types "deny the Lord who bought them" (2 Peter 2:1) and are "cursed children" (2 Peter 2:14) who have "forsaken the right way" (2 Peter 2:15) which means they were once in or on it. Hebrews 6 similarly compares immature believers to children who can't digest solid food and are like a field receiving rain and producing only thorns, fit only for burning and near to a curse. John says Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). You've no doubt addressed these passages in the past, but I'm curious how you reconcile them to your view.
A straightforward reading of these passages (and others) suggests two things to me: First, Christ died for the sins of the whole world, satisfying the righteous judgment of God on sin (propitiation), but this alone is not sufficient for the world's salvation; in other words, there is a wall between God and man composed of several large blocks, one of which God has removed for everyone as an earnest of His desire that all men everywhere repent and be saved. Propitiation has been accomplished for the entire world; no man goes to the lake of fire for sin, because sin is no longer an issue; the issue is ultimately justification, the possession of God's righteousness through faith. Judgment is now centered on the presence or absence of divine righteousness, not the presence of sin. We didn't ask to be included in the first Adam's sin, and we don't get judged for it because the last Adam took its judgment on Himself; but much more than that is required for future life with God.
Secondly, it is possible for redeemed ("bought") children to radically stray from the right way. Future penalties, described in terms of outer darkness, gnashing of teeth, etc., are severe but fall short of a future in the lake of fire; e.g., being cut in two and apportioned their lot with the hypocrites, spending the eternal future outside the New Jerusalem with other pattern sinners, etc.
Before the knives start spinning toward me, may I offer one other thought: debates end up being destructive (1 Timothy 6) if they do not ultimately promote growth and motivation to bear fruit in our lives. Consider, however briefly, the implications of what I have suggested above, if true. Instead of brushing aside these passages about curse, condemnation, and judgment as only pertinent to the unsaved, these are instead dire warnings, alerts, rebukes, and examples to motivate correction and instruction in righteousness for God's own children. I personally think misunderstanding these passages nullifies their power to motivate us and persuade us to examine ourselves to see if we are "in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5).
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ tells us who He dies for, and it is for the sheep that He dies.
How do you define, the sheep?
Jesus could have simply said like this
John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the world.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the world.
but he says this, which is a subset of all people. Not all people are the sheep.
Sheep according to Christ have certain distinct characteristics different from all other people.
John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Peter says about sheep this, that Christ is the Shepherd and Overseer of their souls
1 Peter 2:25
For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Tsalagi
Member
Fair questions. I would suggest that prior to the cross and Pentecost, Jesus is identified as the one who will "save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). The future expansion of eternal salvation beyond the nation of Israel is still a mystery not yet revealed (Ephesians 3). "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6). "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). So the John "sheep" passages specifically refer to Christ's work on behalf of His people Israel, the firstfruits of salvation (James 1:18, cf. Ezekiel 37). As you know, both James and Peter write to first generation Jewish Christians. I would not put world in place of sheep in these passages, although as with many other truths pertaining to Israel there is application for the New Testament church in God's dealings under the Old Covenant.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24)
According to the FLESH, you would think of that as Abraham's descendents only.
Spiritually though for GENTILE believers , we are of Abraham's descendents too, so through faith they are also of the house of Israel.
So that statement also applies to gentile believers who are heirs according the promise God made to Abraham that he would have Isaac, as in through Isaac your seed shall be the called. Galatians was written to gentile believers.
Galatians 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Galatians 3
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
You can't nullify all the the teaching in John about the sheep by what your saying as if it only applies to the jews.
Tsalagi
Member
Respectfully, it is equally easy to say you can't nullify what the Old Testament and Gospels say about Israel as God's sheep by quoting Galatians, which Paul wrote decades after Christ to make an application of Old Testament truth to New Testament Christians, the kind mentioned at the end of my previous post.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
You can just as easily following your thinking, nullify and justify all of the gospels as speaking only to the Jews.
I have to reject your doctrine as being a strange teaching.
Tsalagi
Member
You are certainly free to disagree. One question, though: did Jesus really intend for His disciples to talk to Samaritans and Gentiles in Matthew 10:5-6? If not, how do you know when to read Gentiles into the word "sheep" in the OT and Gospels and when not to?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
To be consistent with your rejection of John and the sheep applying to gentiles, you must also necessarily reject Hebrews 13, Christ being the great shepherd of the sheep, as having any meaning for the gentile saints.
Hebrews 13
20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21 equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
22 I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly. 23 You should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I shall see you if he comes soon. 24 Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those who come from Italy send you greetings. 25 Grace be with all of you.
I am not going to be so foolish as you though, to reject the Book of Hebrews as not being relevant to gentiles.
Hebrews 1
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?
Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”
7 Of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”
Tsalagi
Member
Confusion is understandable, and indeed inevitable, if you jump forward to post-Pentecost scriptures and then try to read them back into the OT and Gospels. Israel is not the church, the church is not Israel; Israel is not "in Christ," and the church is not under the law. We have a new covenant founded on new and better promises. As for Hebrews, you can add it to the letters of James and Peter as specifically addressed to first-century Jewish Christians, and its text needs to be carefully interpreted in that light. All these things were written for our instruction (1 Corinthians 10:11, Romans 15:4). That doesn't mean we indiscriminately mash up God's commands and promises to Israel and apply them directly to the church. It would be an interpretational misstep to read mystery (church age) doctrines back into words that Jesus spoke to His own people Israel in the Gospels.
This is your long statement to say that Jesus atonement for sin is insufficient as payment for sinners.
Tsalagi
Member
It is totally sufficient as payment for sin; but it is absolutely insufficient by itself for salvation, since there is far more that separates fallen mankind from God than the sin penalty alone. This is why it is important to understand the manifold work of Christ as expressed in atonement, redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, regeneration, justification, etc. They aren't synonymous.
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