Can God Discipline a Believer for Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SBCPreacher: You are correct in saying that our sin is paid in full at the cross, but that does not lessen God's responsibility to His children to provide corrction when we need it.

HP: So God did not forget about our sins, and was really insincere in telling us that He will remember them of us no more?

SBCP: God, the perfect Father, disciplines His children for their disobedience. If the disobedience is sin, then, yes, He disciplines Believers for their sin.

HP: The question is, since God forgave all our sins in a literal payment, and promised never to remember them again, how can He discipline us for something He has forgotten and promised never to bring up again? Maybe God did not forgive us of all our sin, i.e. past present and future at the cross, but rather only ‘sins that are past’ as Scripture tells us.

SBCP: Now, our disobdience damages our fellowship with our Father, and brings about discipline, but it does not sever the relationship we have with our Father. He is still our Father.

HP: What? NOTHING can separate us from our God! Nothing can damage our relationship! Do you believe in salvation by works? It was ALL paid for on the cross! Nothing we can do in any way effects our standing before God. God is blind you know, and cannot even see my sins anyway. All He can see is Christ….remember?

SBCP: As for God lying - can't happen. Where it might appear that He lied is obviously a problem with our misunderstanding His word. God cannot, and will not lie.

HP: It is indeed wonderful to find full agreement in this issue. :thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

Let me take a crack at answering your original question.

Let's start by going to the scripture that you quoted from and maybe this will help you out a little.

The author of Hebrews make the same statement twice. In 8:12 and 10:17. Here's 10:16-18.

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

Just before this passage, the author of Hebrews gives a great discourse on the sacrifice of Jesus compared to the sacrifices of the Old Testament and the Law.

I believe, based on the entirety of chapter 10 that the point he is making is that the sacrifices under the law were not sufficient in that the people had to keep doing them over and over. Why did they have to do this over and over?

Because the Most Worthy of sacrifices had not been made. And therefore, the sin of the entire nation would sometimes cause God to punish them, as a nation. He remembered their sins. Not hanging on to them, of course, because He loved His people. But their track record was terrible......as is ours. And their track record brought grevious punishment on them from time to time.

Jesus' sacrifice is final and best. And it happened at the cross. God did not get amnesia at the cross, but He entered into a new covenant with His people. No more would His people have to make daily sacrifices for daily sins. That form of record keeping of sins is over.

I think that the answer to your original post lies not in verse 17 that you quoted but in verse 18. This passage is not about God literally not being able to remember our sins, but about the blood of Jesus being sufficient so that no more sacrifices are necessary.

God doesn't keep inventory of our sins. He doesn't hold them over our heads. Yes, He chastens us and even disciplines and punishes us. And He allows us to pay the natural consequences of some of our sins. But God doesn't keep a record of our wrongs in His Head. It isn't that He literally gets amnesia. I don't think that what verse 17 means.

And I draw my meaning for verse 17 base on the entire chapter, but especially verse 18.

God desires that we not sin. But while we abide in this temporary flesh, we do. It's not that God looks the other way or winks or shakes His finger, because He doesn't. There are christians today who are paying heavy consequences for their personal sins. God hates sins and He is grieved when we do sin.

And the sacrifice of Jesus does not make God forget our sins in that He doesn't know about them or can't remember them. It makes Him forget about them in the sense that when we approach Him on our faces for forgiveness that He is faithful and just to forgive us, even thought He may have to chasten us, and that He requires no more sacrifices for sin.

He remembers them no more in the sense that He doesn't hold accountable for paying the blood price for them anymore.

 

[Brother Bob]

God doesn't keep inventory of our sins. He doesn't hold them over our heads. Yes, He chastens us and even disciplines and punishes us. And He allows us to pay the natural consequences of some of our sins. But God doesn't keep a record of our wrongs in His Head. It isn't that He literally gets amnesia. I don't think that what verse 17 means.

I wonder why we have an advocate with God in case we do sin? Just a thought.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlott O: And the sacrifice of Jesus does not make God forget our sins in that He doesn't know about them or can't remember them. It makes Him forget about them in the sense that when we approach Him on our faces for forgiveness that He is faithful and just to forgive us, even thought He may have to chasten us, and that He requires no more sacrifices for sin.

He remembers them no more in the sense that He doesn't hold accountable for paying the blood price for them anymore.

HP: An excellent post Scarlott. Your reasoning abilities and knowledge of Scripture are indeed sharp.

Let me ask you a question. In the first paragraph of your quote, you said the following: “ WHEN we approach Him on our faces for forgiveness” (EM) This is indeed succulently stated, yet it would appear to go against the Calvinistic notion that it is NOT when we ask forgives or approach Him on our faces, but rather it was ALL FINISHED, the ENTIRE DEBT LITERALLY PAID, on the cross, and we have NOTHING to do with our salvation in the least, we have only to recognize what He has ALREADY done and accept it by faith. Does this sound any alarms or ring any bells with you?

The issue I am raising with this thread is the Calvinistic notion of God forgiving all 'future' sins on the cross. If this was a reality, your words “when we approach Him on our faces for forgiveness” fall silent, for nothing we do has anything to do with our forgiveness. Fall or not fall, it is all done. Am I making myself clear or not?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I wonder why we have an advocate with God in case we do sin? Just a thought.

HP: Excellent thought Bob. If all our future sins have already been addressed, why an advocate, seeing they have already have been atoned for?

 

[Scarlett O.]

I wonder why we have an advocate with God in case we do sin? Just a thought.

I wasn't leaving Jesus, our Advocate, out of the picture in that particular paragraph that you cited.

I believe that He is our Advocate when we sin and when we are suffering.

If we were accused of a crime that we were guilty of, we would have an advocate in the courtroom. That advocate wouldn't necessarily be trying to get us off with no payment of consequence. That advocate might be trying to simply appeal for the mercy of the judge.

When Jesus acts as our Advocate in that regard, He is petitioning God to have mercy upon us as sinners not because we deserve it, but because Jesus paid for that mercy.

Sometimes, advocates in a courtroom are speaking on behalf of those who can't speak for always themselves - orphans, abused people, homeless, mentally deficient people, and such.

I believe that Jesus is being our Advocate when we are at the very pit of our lives - when we are so low that we can't even cry out to God for our own sake. He is our advocate for God's grace and loving Hand to be on us.

God loves us and desires to show mercy and grace. The blood of Jesus simply speaks for us as christians when we do not deserve to speak for ourselves or cannot speak for ourselves. And that's pretty much all of the time. :thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

The issue I am raising with this thread is the Calvinistic notion of God forgiving all 'future' sins on the cross. If this was a reality, your words “when we approach Him on our faces for forgiveness” fall silent, for nothing we do has anything to do with our forgiveness. Fall or not fall, it is all done. Am I making myself clear or not?

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I cannot address a Calvinistic viewpoint because frankly I don't fully understand Calvinism. I lurk around and read some of the C/A threads and I have a Calvinist member of my church who taught a Sunday night bible class and I disagreed with him a little in some of the things he taught from a Calvinist point of view, but I still can't address that particular belief system.

I believe that when Jesus died on the cross, that He died for all of my sins past, present, and future even though I was not even born yet!

That's what makes me atoned for. That's what the bible means when it says that "we are bought with a price". As the old song say, "Jesus Paid it All".

However, I have a responsibility after I come to accept the Jesus as my Savior and Lord.

First of all, salvation is acknowledging that I am a Sinner.....that is that I am a unholy worm in God's presence and need the blood of Jesus to wash my nature clean for salvation's sake and take on His yoke and making Him Lord of my life.

The responsibility that comes after I am saved makes me obedient to the God who saved me. That responsibility is to acknowledge my sin.....that is to admit that my flesh sometimes controls my spirit and that I still fight everyday.

It includes confessing to God the things that I do that displease Him and repenting of them and asking God's forgiveness of them.

This doesn't save me. Repenting of individual sins doesn't save us. Repenting of being a "sinner" saves us. But repenting of individual sins after I am saved from my sin nature keeps me in God's will and keeps me obedient.

Jesus' responsibility to God included obeying the Father in His sacrifical death on the cross. That's where I was bought. That's what makes me atoned for. My submission to God through the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus Christ is what makes me saved.

My responsibility after my salvation includes obeying the Father in confession and repentance of sin in my sacrifical living. That's what makes me faithful. My submission to God through the advocacy of the blood of Jesus Christ is what makes me whole.

 

[DQuixote]

What Scarlett said. You can twist & distort scripture now and forevermore but the Word of God rings true to those who spiritually interpret scripture, therein hearing the very Word of God. That is what Scarlett has done. I need no other argument, I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me. As Dr. J. Vernon MGee said, in so many words, "What difference does it make if he was crucified on Wednesday or Friday? He was crucified, dead and buried, and He rose again, having conquered sin and death, Tetelestai!!! O dear friend, place your faith, hope, and trust in Him today."

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett O: Yes, I understand what you are saying. I cannot address a Calvinistic viewpoint because frankly I don't fully understand Calvinism.

I believe that when Jesus died on the cross, that He died for all of my sins past, present, and future even though I was not even born yet!

HP: For one that does not understand Calvinism, you sure have its’ talking points down pat. The fact is that Calvinism doesn’t make sense to anyone in reality, for it is a maelstrom of confusion. It is a contradictory system, even as you illustate to us in your post. You say on one hand it was all chiseled in stone before you were born, and then speak of salvation as if it takes place “when we approach Him on our faces for forgiveness.” Your confusion makes for classic Calvinism in reality.

Now that we have your stated position, I will ask you again. If it is all finished on the cross, and God literally paid for all our sins, including future sins, as you now admit you believe, and He forgives, forgets, and casts them from us as far as the east is from the west, can or does He discipline us for sins already atoned for? If so, something must not be entirely paid for or forgotten, due to the fact He must dig up these old forgiven sins to discipline us concerning them, does He not?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Now that we have your stated position, I will ask you again. If it is all finished on the cross, and God literally paid for all our sins, including future sins,.....

How could Jesus not have atoned for my future sins? My past, my present, and my future were not even in existence when He died on the cross. It was all future.

And what constitutes my future? Everything beyond today? In a couple of days, January will be over and what I am calling "today" will be the "past" and what I call the "future" will be "today".

I don't understand the delineation of our lives into segments that have unequal standing. I sinned yesterday. I have sinned today.....two or three times.....and probably will before I go to bed. I will sin tomorrow. I don't want to, but I probably will. Jesus atoned for it all on the cross.

His atonement for sin doesn't make me saved. He atoned for the world's sin, but the whole world isn't going to heaven. He atoned for every single person that is going to be born in 2007 and who will have sin in their short or long lives. But every single person born in 2007 isn't going to be saved.

Why? Because while His atonement paid the blood-debt, the gift of grace must be received by the Sinner. Sinners who reject the gift of God's grace through Jesus Christ will go straight to hell. Sinners who take on the yoke of Jesus Christ in obedience to the Father will be saved.

Just as God told Moses to raise of the image of the pole with the serpent on it to save the lives of those people ravaged by deadly snakes, the raising of the pole all by itself didn't heal them.....they had to look at it. They had to give a response. Not all of the people responded properly and some died from poisonous snakebites.

Jesus being raised up on the cross paid the price for sin, but a response is necessary for salvation. Repentance from the sin nature.

as you now admit you believe, and He forgives, forgets, and casts them from us as far as the east is from the west, can or does He discipline us for sins already atoned for?

I have already done my best to explain my interpretation of God "forgetting" in my initial post.

I do not believe it is amnesia. It is God not allowing those confessed sins to break fellowship with us and Him. There are christians everywhere, including me, who have unconfessed sin in their lives and it damages our walk with God. He doesn't "unsave" us or turn His back on us, but He does chastise us and expect us to confess and repent.

For example, the bible says that husbands who sin by not loving their wives properly will have their prayers hindered. That certainly doesn't sound like God has amnesia and is unaware of their sin.

In Hebrews 10:16, God says that He will put His laws in our hearts and write them in our minds. That's not literal. A doctor couldn't open our hearts and minds and find literal handwriting on our tissue.

So why does the next verse have to be literally amnesia? "I will remember them no more". I don't believe it is.

When someone we love wrongs us and hurts us, we generally forgive them. But do we forget about it? Does our forgiving them make us unaware of their wrongdoing as if it never happened? In forgiving do we becoming blind and ignorant to their deeds?

No. But in forgiving them, we put it behind us. We don't allow their ill deeds to destroy our fellowship with them.

As far as the east and west verse is concerned, I don't believe that means that God literally doesn't know about our sin.

Psalm 103:9-13
"He will not always chide; neither will he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth so great is his nercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgression from us. Like a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him."

It says that He has removed our transgressions from us, not become blind to them or unable to remember them. He has set the christian apart from the sin nature that separates them from Him.

If so, something must not be entirely paid for or forgotten, due to the fact He must dig up these old forgiven sins to discipline us concerning them, does He not?

Sin is entirely paid for. Jesus said, "It is finished."

God entirely separates the christian from the confessed sin in his/her life. And God entirely keeps those confessed sins away from our relationship with Him. God looks at the christian and says, "He is mine. She is mine. Blood debt - paid!" That is my interpretation of forgotten.

Unconfessed sin can hinder our walk with God and our testimony to others. God can chasten or rebuke His christian sons and daughers for unconfessed sin. This has no bearing on their salvation. But it does have bearing on their christian walk.

God never digs up any old sins. That is remembering. And that is the devil's job.

That's all I know to tell you.

 

[Brother Bob]

Unconfessed sin can hinder our walk with God and our testimony to others. God can chasten or rebuke His christian sons and daughers for unconfessed sin. This has no bearing on their salvation. But it does have bearing on their christian walk.

It woud be nice if someone would say Why? If they were paid for, then Why would you be punished. That does not make the least bit of sense. You just can't have it both ways. To say all your sins are paid for past, present and future would cover unconfessed sins also. To say by the Grace of God, your sins are paid for and By the Grace of God, you shall be kept from temptation beyond you are able to bear and commit the sins that would keep you out of Heaven makes more sense.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Of course God disciplines His children - just like any good father would do.

Oftentimes, though, we blame God for things that are nothing more than the consequences of the sin we committed.

 

[James_Newman]

HP:

• Ps 103:12 “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” Either He forgave all sins at the cross when He paid for them , and forgets and never brings them up again, or the east and the west are not as far apart as it might seem (I am approaching this from the perspective of one that believes in the literal payment theory)
• 1Jo 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” If we need to keep confessing for sins that are forgiven as you suggest, it would be as to say to God, “I really don’t believe you have forgiven me for my sins or I do not believe I can be sure they are under the blood and forgiven until the judgment seat of Christ.”

How’s that for starters?

So there are two senses in which our sins need to be forgiven. As an unbeliever, a man must have the blood of Christ to cover his sins. The result of this atonement is that on the last day a man will be raised up to be with Him. Then there is the forgiveness that a believer who is already saved must have in order to be clean at the judgment seat of Christ, when we will receive for the things done in the flesh. In one sense we are already forgiven of all sins. In another, if we have unconfessed sin we are filthy. Being unclean in the second sense will have no bearing on the forgiveness that we have already obtained through Christ's blood. But it will have great affect on how we spend the millennium.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Forever 16(?): Of course God disciplines His children - just like any good father would do. Oftentimes, though, we blame God for things that are nothing more than the consequences of the sin we committed.

HP: Sorry. I couldn’t resist.:laugh: :tonofbricks:

Absolutely God disciplines His children. If we receive no discipline Scripture tells us that we are bastards not sons. Heb 12:8 “But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.”

You are also correct that we often suffer the natural consequences of our own action. Certainly God could spare us in many ways from such consequences, but often chooses not to for reasons only known to Him.

It would seem apparent to me that if God has already bought and paid for all our sins, especially future sins, discipline really serves no eternal purpose and even would violate His promise to forgive and forget, never to remember them again.

Of course, the bottom line is that I do not believe Scripture ever states nor implies that any future sins we commit are automatically covered by the atonement without forsaking them, repenting of them, and offering a sincere commitment of continued obedience until the end as our sacred duty.

Scripture is clear. Sins “that are past” is the only proper object of personal forgiveness. Anything beyond that is enacting a license to sin, sin without the prescribed penalty for sin, leading to sinning with impunity and ultimately pure antinomianism.

Sure God made a way in which all the sins of the entire world can be forgiven on the cross, but that was a satisfaction to the demands of the law, and not the actual forgiveness of any sin in particular. Forgiveness of our personal sins comes only as we fulfill the conditions God said must be fulfilled in order to receive personal forgiveness and salvation. As Scarlett implied, we must look to the cross personally before the blood is applied to our heart and lives.

 

[Brother Bob]

As Scarlett implied, we must look to the cross personally before the blood is applied to our heart and lives.

How many times do you have to look to the cross? Doesn't God's Grace play a role in keeping us from such grevious sins such as killing. Just a thought.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

James Newman: So there are two senses in which our sins need to be forgiven. As an unbeliever, a man must have the blood of Christ to cover his sins. The result of this atonement is that on the last day a man will be raised up to be with Him. Then there is the forgiveness that a believer who is already saved must have in order to be clean at the judgment seat of Christ, when we will receive for the things done in the flesh. In one sense we are already forgiven of all sins. In another, if we have unconfessed sin we are filthy. Being unclean in the second sense will have no bearing on the forgiveness that we have already obtained through Christ's blood. But it will have great affect on how we spend the millennium.

HP: Would you have any Scriptural support for these ‘two senses of forgiveness” you see? If all sins are forgiven at the cross, why the distinction of ‘unconfessed sins’ and the notion of them being ‘filthy?’ If a sin is forgiven it is forgiven. Are you calling that ‘vile’ that God has made clean, as if though His atonement was not sufficient to cleanse every vile stain and make every vile stain as white as snow?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

The blood is sufficient to cover ALL sins or NO sins...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: How many times do you have to look to the cross? Doesn't God's Grace play a role in keeping us from such grevious sins such as killing. Just a thought.

HP: I was simply looking for the good in Scarlett’s post in that quote.

If one is a partaker of grace I believe that indeed it will play a role in keeping us from grievous sin. I believe it plays the role of a formidable influence in the life of one whose heart is set on God.

If ones religion does not keep one from the vices and sin of this present world, what good is it?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

IAB16: The blood is sufficient to cover ALL sins or NO sins...

HP: I could not agree more, but being ‘sufficient for’ and ‘literally paying for’ are two opposing ideas at complete antipodes with each other.

 

[Brother Bob]

I guess I got a bad habit of looking for the flaws. sorry.

Its like I am Blessed's post, what does that supposed to mean? Don't sin count in a believer and he is not held accountable for sin because of the blood. It just don't make sense does it, my friend.