Can Jesus Cast Out Saved Believers?

[Dave G]

Explain how if the church do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation per Revelation 2:18-25

Revelation is written to the seven churches which were in Asia.

As we know, the church-at-large is composed of all who profess Christ;
But not all who profess Christ actually possess Him;
Not all who say, "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

Again, see the parables of the sower and of the tares tell us that 3 out of 4 who believe, will either not believe, or when tested will have their "faith" fail them.
Process of elimination and understanding what a genuine believer is, at the heart level and who God has made them to be, plus the fact that Christ will lose none of the ones that were given to Him by His Father, tells me who the first 3 are...
"Tares", sown in the field of His "wheat" by His enemy, Satan.

They are his children, not the children of God.
They consist of false teachers and false brethren, and it is my own belief that they are there to trouble the Lord's children.



Jesus Christ through John is addressing the seven churches and commending them for their faith, as well as rebuking them for their allowing false doctrines to come in.
He is addressing a mixed crowd.

As for the the church at Thyatira being cast into a bed of great tribulation, to me it is not THE "Great Tribulation" being spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...
It simply says "great tribulation" ( great trouble ) if they do not repent.


I find that I must disagree with you for that reason.

 

[Dave G]

It is there.

Then please show it from the Scriptures.

There is tribulation where false prophets have arisen in great numbers in the latter days we are living in..

I agree.
But we are not in THE "Great Tribulation" as of yet.

When it happens, we will know it;
It will be far worse than the plagues of Egypt, and will encompass the entire earth.

Then there is the great tribulation which occurs after the rapture event that if the church is not ready as found abiding in Him is why God will judge His House first at the rapture event per 1 Peter 4:17-19 as He is faithful to keep the souls of His saints that are left behind to suffer what is coming on the earth.

Again, i see no Great Tribulation after the "rapture event".

Also, I see that what's being described in 1 Peter 4 is judgment regarding Christian obedience / conduct, not judgment pertaining to eternal damnation or even to believers being left behind or being penalized in any way for sins that are already forgiven at the cross.

Regarding the so-called "pre-tribulation Rapture" ( which was never taught until about 200 years ago in the visible churches and is mostly attributed to John Nelson Darby ):
As I've indicated before and according to Matthew 24 and Mark 13,
He sends forth His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

My friend, read it again and pay careful attention to the words "immediately after", "then" ...
He comes at the last trump and gathers them to Him.
If you can find anywhere in those two accounts a "pre-tribulation rapture" event, then I'll be glad to look at it with you.
Otherwise, I know of no place in the Bible that describes such a thing, timing-wise.

I do know that many teachers these days now teach it, and they try to do so using only a couple of verses.
But they completely miss the significance of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, as they lay things out, step by step.

Good evening to you, sir.

 

[Dave G]

@Dave G , you have a great summary of what 1 John teaches if you could repost it, that would be very helpful to Hark and me too.

Steven,
Thanks for your comments.

The summary I have about 1 John isn't something that came to me overnight...
But after careful study and realizing who believers are, at heart, I came to see that 1 John is comparing and contrasting true and false believers / unbelievers.
I see that it even gives us a "measuring stick" with which to gauge our own condition with...
1 John 4:7-21 and 1 John 5:1-13, with verse 13 telling us this:

" These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."


Note:
While I'm thinking of it, 1 John 5:13 may even be referring to everything that John has told us previous to the verse, as far back as chapter 1.

 

[37818]

Please add John 10:29

The fuller context being John 10:26-30.

 

[Hark]

John 10:16 still obliterates your position.
It's interesting that you cherry pick sentences from places to prop up a weird pretext you have created in your mind. Yet, if we ever looked at a passage in whole, your contention falls apart. John 10 is a perfect example.

John 10:16 cites another fold that did not follow His voice, does it not?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In context, I align that with the sheep that climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5

This is referring to false prophets that lead believers to another means for life other than Jesus for why Jesus is stressing Him as being the only door per John 10:7-11 He said all those that come between Him and them is the thief for why the sheep that follow His voice do not follow them. John 10:8 That can be applied to the RCC and those who promote the movement of the spirit to chase after & receive those spirits after a sign, even a sign of tongues proclaiming them to be the Holy Spirit when He is not, even though they address Him in prayer & worship to receive Him again and again and again. That is why Jesus said this.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So the sheep that followed the stranger's voice in John 10:1-5 is the sheep that went astray for why they are not of the fold that followed His voice but He still must bring them because they are His sheep by believing in Him for why they that get left behind, will be resurrected after the great tribulation as they WILL hear His voice literally as their King of kings and be of the one fold & one shepherd for the millennium reign.

Only the Lord can confirm that to you to see that every element of that chapter has been applied to that presentation and scripture elsewhere supports that there are 2 kinds of believers in His kingdom per Matthew 5:19 & 2 Timothy 2:20.

 

[Hark]

Your understanding and my understanding of some same Scriptures are not the same. We disagree on understanding some Scriptures. I believe little children are safe in Christ should they die as little children. I also believe that those who come to faith in Christ and God saves, the same God keeps. John 10:26-28.

John 10:16 cites another fold that did not follow His voice, does it not?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In context, I align that with the sheep that climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5

This is referring to false prophets that lead believers to another means for life other than Jesus for why Jesus is stressing Him as being the only door per John 10:7-11 He said all those that come between Him and them is the thief for why the sheep that follow His voice do not follow them. John 10:8 That can be applied to the RCC and those who promote the movement of the spirit to chase after & receive those spirits after a sign, even a sign of tongues proclaiming them to be the Holy Spirit when He is not, even though they address Him in prayer & worship to receive Him again and again and again. That is why Jesus said this.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So the sheep that followed the stranger's voice in John 10:1-5 is the sheep that went astray for why they are not of the fold that followed His voice but He still must bring them because they are His sheep by believing in Him for why they that get left behind, will be resurrected after the great tribulation as they WILL hear His voice literally as their King of kings and be of the one fold & one shepherd for the millennium reign.

Only the Lord can confirm that to you to see that every element of that chapter has been applied to that presentation and scripture elsewhere supports that there are 2 kinds of believers in His kingdom per Matthew 5:19 & 2 Timothy 2:20.

 

[37818]

@AustinC

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Again, only the Lord can show you by His words what applies to salvation and what applies to discipleship which is not about obtaining salvation but the firstfruits of the resurrection since not every saved believer will be ready in spite of His warnings to be ready or else..

No one can run that race or be His disciple unless they are saved. With Him being in us as saved to be able to run which is to be done still by grace of God & by faith in Jesus Christ BUT as our Good Shepherd as we are to look to Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race for the high prize of our calling when the Bridegroom comes.

We disagree on to many details. For the record, I am of the point of view discipleship begins at salvation, John 13:35, 1 John 4:7-8.

 

[Hark]

Hark,
Believers who do not continue in the faith are called, "unbelievers".

They were never born again, did not experience a genuine change of heart, and were never His.
He will tell them in all honesty, "I never knew you".

Read the parables of the sower and tares, and their corresponding explanations in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8.
Those who abide, do so because He "abides" them ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

The answer to your OP is "No."
He does not cast out His sheep ( John 6:37 ).

But He will cast out those who think that they are His sheep and are instead "goats" who were never born again and who never truly believed.

John 10:16 cites another fold that did not follow His voice, does it not?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In context, I align that with the sheep that climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5

This is referring to false prophets that lead believers to another means for life other than Jesus for why Jesus is stressing Him as being the only door per John 10:7-11 He said all those that come between Him and them is the thief for why the sheep that follow His voice do not follow them. John 10:8 That can be applied to the RCC and those who promote the movement of the spirit to chase after & receive those spirits after a sign, even a sign of tongues proclaiming them to be the Holy Spirit when He is not, even though they address Him in prayer & worship to receive Him again and again and again. That is why Jesus said this.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So the sheep that followed the stranger's voice in John 10:1-5 is the sheep that went astray for why they are not of the fold that followed His voice but He still must bring them because they are His sheep by believing in Him for why they that get left behind, will be resurrected after the great tribulation as they WILL hear His voice literally as their King of kings and be of the one fold & one shepherd for the millennium reign.

Only the Lord can confirm that to you to see that every element of that chapter has been applied to that presentation and scripture elsewhere supports that there are 2 kinds of believers in His kingdom per Matthew 5:19 & 2 Timothy 2:20.

 

[Hark]

Brother Hark,

@Dave G gave you the biblical answer.

Which post # please?

It goes much deeper than what Dave mentioned with dozens and maybe hundreds of verses. If you have a pastor trained in the Word well, he will give you the same answer. I suggest you test everything coming from a message board as if it is mostly vomit. If you really want to grow in Christ, get in a good church, go to every teaching of the Word you get weekly (with small groups it should be at least a few times a week or something is up), study the Word on your own, and have long and productive chats with your pastor. Message boards are mostly about arguing what every individual person takes for granted. They are places to learn, but only once you have trained discernment and become grounded in the Word well. I grew up in the faith posting on Baptist Board, and I do not recommend anyone repeating what I did, because I did not have enough discernment to put everything I was talking about in context.

We all prophesy in part & know in part; and yet we are required to share any talent the Lord has given us as profitless servants. Granted, He can prune what we have learned to be more fruitful ( John 15:1-2 ) so we should always be open to correction until He brings us Home by His righteousness & His faithfulness.

I implore you to read 1 John from beginning to end. It lays out why those making a practice of sin without a new nature are doomed from a variety of angles. A new nature from being born again from above by the now indwelling Holy Spirit.

@Dave G , you have a great summary of what 1 John teaches if you could repost it, that would be very helpful to Hark and me too.

But you should be the one to convey why you read 1 John in that way even if Dave presented it for your understanding because Dave's presentation may be different from even how you apply Dave's words to mean.

I do not read 1 John in that way at all when John says that believers need to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son for how His blood cleanses us from all sins and that if anyone did sin, per 1 John 2:1-2, we have an Advocate to forgive us of our sins per 1 John 1:9.

John was addressing believers that believe for one reason or another that sin ceases to be sin for them for why they walk in darkness per 1 John 1:8 & 1 John 1:10 for why they need to confess it as sin in 1 John 1:9 & walk in the light per 1 John 1:3-7

John is not saying we never sin since Jesus did teach us a prayer to the Father to forgive us our trespasses aka debts as we are to forgive others if we expect the Father to forgive us; but we are not to live in unrepentant sins nor walk in darkness.

Matthew 6:.9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Hark]

We disagree on to many details. For the record, I am of the point of view discipleship begins at salvation, John 13:35, 1 John 4:7-8.

What does that mean exactly to your references below?

Your scriptural references posted below since thread is featured to the internet in case readers outside the forum are reading.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Are you applying this as meaning you are not saved yet but on your way to salvation as a disciple that continues to love one another? If not, then you are NOT saying salvation begins at discipleship and so I ask how you are applying scripture to mean?

Because Jesus has warned us to forgive others daily as He taught us this daily prayer or else the Father will not forgive us.

Matthew 6:.9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Which post # please?



We all prophesy in part & know in part; and yet we are required to share any talent the Lord has given us as profitless servants. Granted, He can prune what we have learned to be more fruitful ( John 15:1-2 ) so we should always be open to correction until He brings us Home by His righteousness & His faithfulness.



But you should be the one to convey why you read 1 John in that way even if Dave presented it for your understanding because Dave's presentation may be different from even how you apply Dave's words to mean.

I do not read 1 John in that way at all when John says that believers need to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son for how His blood cleanses us from all sins and that if anyone did sin, per 1 John 2:1-2, we have an Advocate to forgive us of our sins per 1 John 1:9.

John was addressing believers that believe for one reason or another that sin ceases to be sin for them for why they walk in darkness per 1 John 1:8 & 1 John 1:10 for why they need to confess it as sin in 1 John 1:9 & walk in the light per 1 John 1:3-7

John is not saying we never sin since Jesus did teach us a prayer to the Father to forgive us our trespasses aka debts as we are to forgive others if we expect the Father to forgive us; but we are not to live in unrepentant sins nor walk in darkness.

Matthew 6:.9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Thank you for sharing.

Post 22 and 23. A could quote scriptures for a while on this, but I'll add Matthew 7, knowing those cast out as not knowing Christ are in reference to them not practicing the sermon on the mount. James 2 and 2 Peter 1 are also easy go to scriptures for me on this topic.

 

[Hark]

Matthew 5:
There are those who are called "least" and "greatest," but that is not separating them according to classes, but levels of honor among equals.
For example- read about the history of the early Church- the bishops/priests/pastors/etc were all equals with each other in the councils, which were conciliatory in nature. They reasoned together with Scripture and teachings of the Apostles to separate the True Faith among rising heresies.

When the Bishop of Rome began claiming primacy over the rest of the bishops, the Church split, but it was not always that way. The Bishop of Rome was always considered a "first among equals." Certain ones had various "ranks" of honor for the sake of order, but they were all equal in their standing in Christ.

...But I don't want to get into Church history/politics too much... and I am not Catholic... I am just using that as an example.

I do not want to get too much in Church's history outside the Bible either but for clarity leading to judgment...

Pope Clement 1 was considered the official Pope of Rome as called as such even though the RCC claimed Peter was the first Pope but was never called as such in the N.T. In light of that, Clement 1 sent a letter to the Corinthians to brow beat them through a slurry of scripture & references of Biblical people & events in scripture into giving to his collectors visiting the churches in Corinth. This covetous practice continues on today where CC are expected to give tributes to those above them.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is conquest of the laity where one is being served by the churches due to covetousness, be it power or money & provisions for support. The deeds of the Nicolaitanes are sexual immorality. Usually power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely as they compromises the church's stance in society by which being outside the church rule the churches to submit or else when they are the ones to be submitting to the Word of God as there are no authority outside the church except Him. That is why presbytery are to be located in that city for which local churches can submit them to the Word of God as they are. Today's Presbytery are out of town and thus no one can correct or rebuke them as they rule.

I expounded further in my second paragraph to show how bad churches are today for having an authority not being submissive to the Word of God outside the church to rule over them. You do not know them, or how they got that position, let alone to remove them when unrepentant in their ruling.

God be willing, I shall reply further on your reply next post by keeping this somewhat short.

 

[Hark]

Galatians 3:28-29, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Please take your time reading this because it might seem deep. I am adding color and bold print to help break things up- not yelling

In the Early Church, and to this day in most churches, when Communion is served, the whole Church partakes- all that are baptized and/or profess faith in Christ- not just the leaders (priests/pastors/etc). Communion represents the Marriage Supper because it represents the shed blood and crucified body of Christ who is our Redemption (not in a Trans-substantiation sense, but as a symbol). All who have been invited and have accepted the invitation to Heaven are welcome at the Table because they have put on the garments of Christ, both in the Church (a representation of the Kingdom) and the Kingdom itself.... of course, there may be some who are coming to the Table in church who are not in Christ, unfortunately they eat and drink condemnation upon themselves, which they will have to answer for at the Judgment.

Using Paul's instructions to husbands in Ephesians, this shows how we (the Church) are equals as members of Christ.

Ephesians 5:30-32, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Verse showing that the Communion bread and wine is the symbol of Christ's body and blood (again, not saying Trans-substantiation):

Luke 22:19-20, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

Hopefully I didn't go too far off in another direction- if you understand the whole "Marriage Supper is Christ" thing forgive my rambling. I just went into it in order to show how we are all one in Christ- equals- as the husband and wife are equals... yet the husband being the head (for the sake of order).

I understand your application and I can agree in the part of referring to the Marriage Supper because of this reference..

Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The following verse seems to segue to sitting down with the O.T. saints at this Marriage Supper table in heaven.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

But while verse 30 also sort of ties in with what you are saying in how the O.T. saints & N.T. saints will be sitting together at the table, it doesn't in light of how those who profess Him are cast out for being workers of iniquity.

While verse 26 can be applied to how they take communion...believing that His Presence is in the bread & wine and or believing as some Presbyterian Churches begins their communion service by saying, "We come into His Presence today.." which denies Him as being in us always... for we are not walking away from His Presence after communion.

Does it matter that we say what we mean and not say anything or do anything like communion to that effect as denying Him in us always and not receiving Him any more ?

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

It does seem it matters. And if they do this, & get left behind. it does not mean they are not saved or not His as the Father will chasten them in that way before receiving per Hebrews 12:4-11 even for the ones left behind & not just in regards to now..

 

[Hark]

I
________________________________

As for your 2 Timothy reference:

Read it in context of the whole chapter. This is an issue within the earthly Church ("Church militant" which is still imperfect), not the Kingdom of Heaven. The Church is the "great house" referred to in verse 20. Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching people things that were contrary to the Truth and leading people astray, but there is no indication that they were appointed as official teachers by the Apostles.
Because of this sin they became vessels of dishonor. There can be no vessels of dishonor (sin) in the Kingdom of Heaven because no sin can exist in His fully revealed presence.
There are some who are "in" the Church (gathering at worship, fellowships, and involved in the activities), even proclaiming Christ, yet they will not be saved (if they do not repent) because they do not follow Him. These will not be in the Kingdom or at the Marriage Supper. They were invited and they showed up at the door but they were not wearing the appropriate garments.

______________________

As for being left behind at the Rapture- I am assuming you are talking from a pre-trib view? The Scriptures are not clear as to exactly when the rapture will happen. There is a lot of controversy over that. The important thing to concern yourself with is are you following Christ now? If you are, which I assume is true for you, then you don't need to worry about when the rapture will happen or if you will be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. Stay close to Christ and He will guide and protect you according to the Father's will, just as He did the Martyrs.

I suspect that Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy 2:16 is in relation to 2 Timothy 2:15 for believers to read the scripture for their edification while Hymenaeus and Philetus were using tongues for private use such as self edification which is not of Him at all.. I get that as being of the devil per 2 Timothy 2:26 as that which can be applied to Hymenaeus and Philetus for being among them leading others astray.

If you are aware of how modern day tongues assumed to be for private use because it is gibberish nonsense and no foreign language of men, then note how they always associated that tongue by another drink of the One Spirit; hence another baptism with the Holy Ghost by that sign of tongue thus saved believers are committing spiritual adultery per Matthew 12:39

This be they that known the depths of Satan for which they speak in that church at Thyatira as Jesus address those that have not known that tongue in verse 24 to hold fast in Revelation 2:18-25

If you consider the five foolish virgins that were pounding on the door for the Lord to let them in, they were out to the market seeking to be filled with oil ( Holy Spirit ) while the prudent knew that they were for why they were ready to go and they were not. So for believing they can receive the Holy Spirit again by that sign of tongue and others receive the Holy Spirit again in other signs of confusion like slain in the spirit & holy laughter movement & Pensacola Outpouring, & Toronto's Blessings and Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade back around the 1980's & etc... these saved believers risk being left behind, unless they turn to Jesus Christ for help at that throne of grace to help them to repent and stop chasing after those spirits & shun that vain & profane babblings to pray normally before the Bridegroom comes as greater is he that is in them than he that is in the world 1 John 4:4.

So there is a reason for why believers will be left behind as that is the same reason the churches are to excommunicate.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So Jesus can eat the Marriage Supper with abiding saints in sincerity and in truth.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.......11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

 

[Dave G]

John 10:16 cites another fold that did not follow His voice, does it not?

No, it does not.
Let's read the passage in question, Hark:

" I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd." ( John 10:14-16 )


Here's what I see when I read it:

14) Jesus is telling us that He is "the good shepherd";
He knows His sheep and is known of them ( they know Him ).

15) As the Father knows Christ, so Christ knows the Father...
He then tells us that He lays down His life for those very same sheep.

16) Other sheep ( the Gentiles ) He has, which are not of this fold ( the Jews )...
He is going to bring them as well, and they shall hear His voice.
There will be one fold ( See Romans 11:11-25, Galatians 4:21-31, Ephesians 2:11-22, Ephesians 3:6 ), and one shepherd.

The Gentile believers and Jewish believers are, in reality, of one group...
God's elect.

 

[Dave G]

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In context, I align that with the sheep that climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5

I see that those who are trying to climb up another way are those trying to come to God through their own efforts...
"Tares".

When tested, they will follow the voice of strangers.
They will be led away, fall from the faith once delivered unto the saints and they will never grow in grace and knowledge.

They will never be led into all truth, because they do not have the Spirit of God in them to show it to them.

This is referring to false prophets that lead believers to another means for life other than Jesus for why Jesus is stressing Him as being the only door per John 10:7-11 He said all those that come between Him and them is the thief for why the sheep that follow His voice do not follow them. John 10:8 That can be applied to the RCC and those who promote the movement of the spirit to chase after & receive those spirits after a sign, even a sign of tongues proclaiming them to be the Holy Spirit when He is not, even though they address Him in prayer & worship to receive Him again and again and again. That is why Jesus said this.

I agree in the highlighted.

But there are also false teachers among God's children who were never born again, who profess him with the lips and in works ( their behavior ) they deny that they really know Him ( Titus 1:16 ).
I could cite examples of these throughout history and into present-day.

We know who they are, and many of them are on television and on radio.
They promise the believer liberty, but they are the servants of sin.

They fly around in jets, make money off the backs of Christians and generally try to bring them into bondage under a system of works that will never let them go...
If the Lord were to leave them in it.

 

[Dave G]

So the sheep that followed the stranger's voice in John 10:1-5 is the sheep that went astray for why they are not of the fold that followed His voice but He still must bring them because they are His sheep by believing in Him for why they that get left behind, will be resurrected after the great tribulation as they WILL hear His voice literally as their King of kings and be of the one fold & one shepherd for the millennium reign.

I disagree.

The sheep that followed the stranger's voice weren't really His sheep at all.
He very clearly tells us in John 10:26-27, this:

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:26-28 ).

There are no true sheep that do not follow Christ.
There are no true sheep that follow strangers...in John 10:27, it tells us that His sheep hear HIS voice, that He does indeed know them and they do indeed follow Him...
Not the voice of strangers.

John 10:1-5, tells us a parable that shows that His sheep ( not "tares" who profess Christ but in reality love this world and its ways ) do not follow the voice of strangers:

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." ( John 10:4-5 ).

As for dividing them up into obedient sheep who are "raptured away" before the Tribulation, and disobedient sheep who get resurrected after the Great Tribulation, I do not know where you get this idea of a "pre-tribulational Rapture" at.

There is only one second coming, and only one gathering of His elect at that time.

Again, when you can show me from the Scriptures that there is indeed a two-part second coming of Christ ( where He comes in the clouds to gather His people, then goes back to Heaven for 7 years and then comes to earth after that ), I'll consider it.
But in all my studies thus far, I have never found Scriptural support for Darby's ( and by extension today's popular ) teaching on this.

 

[Hark]

Post 22 and 23. A could quote scriptures for a while on this, but I'll add Matthew 7, knowing those cast out as not knowing Christ are in reference to them not practicing the sermon on the mount. James 2 and 2 Peter 1 are also easy go to scriptures for me on this topic.

Okay. Thanks for sharing. Still in disagreement with Dave G's post.

In Matthew 7:13-27, we see false prophets coming into the church as a warning from Jesus in Matthew 7:15-20

This is addressing believers that have gone astray by the iniquity cited in Matthew 7:13-14. That iniquity of broadening the way is how we come to God in worship, fellowship, & prayer which is having believers go to the Holy Spirit rather than the Son. Reproof for that iniquity can be seen by how Christ gives the solution to avoid that iniquity in Luke 13:24-30 for why they are left behind for not applying that solution.

Do not believers fall down in these movement of the spirits as Jesus warned & described in Matthew 7:24-27 for not heeding His words of John 14:6 even when seeking to receive another baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign of tongues from the Holy Spirit Himself ( John 10:1-5 ) for why many follow a stranger's voice, tongues without interpretation and thus assumed in error for private use & not the real God's gift of tongues as cited by the law & prophets to be doing in being of other men's lips to speak unto the people in 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 and not to serve as a sign or proof for the already saved believers to seek after? Matthew 12:39

So the reason why God will deny saved believers to attend the Marriage supper in Heaven is because they are in iniquity. That does not mean they are not saved. Even former believers left behind, He still abides in them as 2 Timothy 2:11-13 as a faithful saying.

So what the church fail to do in excommunicating wayward & unrepentant believers, God will do at the pre great trib rapture event as He will finish His work in those left behind for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him for why they are not cast out of His hand nor cast out of the kingdom of Heaven but cast out from attending the Supper I heaven for not being ready.

Jesus never warned saved believers that they will be left behind for not being saved. but for not being ready. That is why they are still saved. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 would testify to that effect of that fateful day.

 

[Hark]

No, it does not.
Let's read the passage in question, Hark:

" I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd." ( John 10:14-16 )


Here's what I see when I read it:

14) Jesus is telling us that He is "the good shepherd";
He knows His sheep and is known of them ( they know Him ).

15) As the Father knows Christ, so Christ knows the Father...
He then tells us that He lays down His life for those very same sheep.

16) Other sheep ( the Gentiles ) He has, which are not of this fold ( the Jews )...
He is going to bring them as well, and they shall hear His voice.
There will be one fold ( See Romans 11:11-25, Galatians 4:21-31, Ephesians 2:11-22, Ephesians 3:6 ), and one shepherd.

In relation to John 10:1-13 is about false prophets that would place another door like climbing up another way or prevent others from entering that door like putting a spirit in between them & Jesus.

That differentiates the fold as ones that follow His voice from those that follow a stranger's voice.

So applying John 10:16 is directed to that other fold not following Him but that is why He must bring them because they are saved & they will hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd in serving Him as the King of kings. When they do not hear His voice spiritually, they will definitely hear Him as their King of kings on earth..

 

[Dave G]

In relation to John 10:1-13 is about false prophets that would place another door like climbing up another way or prevent others from entering that door like putting a spirit in between them & Jesus.

That differentiates the fold as ones that follow His voice from those that follow a stranger's voice.

So applying John 10:16 is directed to that other fold not following Him but that is why He must bring them because they are saved & they will hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd in serving Him as the King of kings. When they do not hear His voice spiritually, they will definitely hear Him as their King of kings on earth..

Hark,
I've told you how I see it when I read it.
That's all that I can do.
We will have to agree to disagree.

But if you think that the Lord somehow treats His sheep differently based on whether or not they obey, I think that you really should look more closely at how the Bible describes true believers, those that He loves and that love Him...Christ's genuine sheep who are new creatures at heart and who have the Spirit as both Teacher and Comforter, and who, by the Spirit do mortify ( or put to death ) the deeds of the body ( Romans 8 ).

Sin has no more dominion over those who have been made alive in Christ.

But we already know where false teachers come from...
Among us.
They are "tares" as well.
People who think that they know the Lord, but He does not know them.

Again, that's why He will tell many that He never knew them...
Because they were never given to Him by the Father ( John 6:39, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ) and they do not have eternal life.

This is my final reply in this thread.

I wish you and all who read this well,
and may God grant you many good and perfect gifts in addition to the most important one:

To know him and His Son is the greatest gift that we could ever obtain by His hand.