Can Non-Cals Explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?

You are correct I posted that without paying close attention to what I was doing.

I did a scan of the Greek and so far I can't find the usage of apo-before

I believe the more important grammatical issue is the verb "written" being in perfect tense - the Lamb's Book of Life was already written from the foundation of the world.

 

Translators with bias, or word meanings do change over the years,

If I stand before you today as a speaker to an audience is different than I stand before you in line at the movies

 

Exactly. "Before" could mean "in front of" or "in the presence of".

 

True but apo is not used that way.

From the foundation... from the inception. In fact the foundation is like our word - the foundation of a house. Paul talked about laying a foundation and another building upon it.

The Foundation of the world probably means from the very beginning of the world.

 

That list is how ἀπὸ was translated in the KJV. Once translated "before." But did not have the meaning of prior as to order but from a place among others. Matthew . . .

 

Whatever, whenever, wherever - the Book of Life was already there in toto.

 

I believe the names in Book of Life were written when you were created. But remember I believe you (your soul) existed before your body.

 

There is disagreement when names occur or occurred in the book of life. I am of the view all names are in the book of life from eternity, before the foundation of the world. By reason the elect are elect before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). But the non-elect manage to get their names removed, only the elect have the promise of never having their names removed (Revelation 3:5). The elect are the one's who in turn overcome (1 John 5:4).

Again, I am not a Calvinist.

 

Bottom line: I don't care. here (after the debate) is what our ultimate response should be:

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

 

The reference wasn't Matthew, but Luke in Acts 7:45, ". . . Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David, . . ." -- KJV απο as before. ESV, NASB, NIV here as well.

 

Wow. The evidence for the soul in the body does not occur before about the 17th day of conception (". . . the life [soul] of the flesh is in the blood . . . " -- Leviticus 17:11. When early on a cell or cells are separated, that cell or group of cells become another person. An identical twin.

 

Bruh, he doesn't have to look up the Greek word. He taught it in seminary for 30+ years.

 

You are so anti-election its pitiful. Election is God choosing to save ppl. If you oppose election, then you're saying many are going to be with God that He never chose. You willing to go that far?

 

Got any verses to back this claim up?

 

There are two Greek phrases used in common to the two sets of verses I cited. All the more I would think he would have understood this.

". . . απο καταβολης κοσμου . . ." The 7 references, Revelation 13:8 & Revelation 17:8 being among them.

I view the meaning of that phrase by the usage of those 7 passages, what they have in common and also how they differ. But the sense of απο is not referenced prior to "the foundation of the world." I would be hard pressed to see a meaning of prior to, "before" as ESV translators chose. With Hebrews 9:26 and Luke 11:50 in mind.

". . . προ καταβολης κοσμου . . ." Three verses use this phrase. I see no doubt that these reference refer to prior to "the foundation of the world." The election (Ephesians 1:4) is God's, and we in coming to faith has no merit on our part. Only for us it has a beginning, our choosing being real.. But God's election has no beginning.

Which brings up another Greek phrase which only occures twice, ". . . εν αγιασμω πνευματος . . . ." Which in my understand explains a lot. as to God's influence on His elect.

 

Now, now, now, Brother Glen. You know that it ain't fair if God calls some and not the others. God is always Just, and they conflate that with fairness. Being fair would be casting everyone of us heathens into the fire and leaving us in misery. That's fair. They then conflate God being Just with Him being fair. God being Just is God being Righteous.

 

Even if election was 'from' the creation of the world, its an already completed work done by God. Election does not take place in time. Our conversion is what happens in time. God choosing His sheep from the beginning or before the beginning does not change the fact it was settled by God.

 

Yes, the question is where are the verses to say otherwise

 

Oh, thanks 3.