Can Non-Cals Explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?

[HankD]

Well that's the greek word πρό and not ἀπὸ same as for Mt 6:8, Mt 8:29, Mt 24: 38 . So where would ἀπὸ be used as in something before in the scriptures.

Now look I admit I don't know applications of Greek and usage....but where am I missing it? If Rev 13:8 meant (before πρό) rather than from...then why didn't it use πρό?? It used ἀπὸ meaning from.

You are correct I posted that without paying close attention to what I was doing.

I did a scan of the Greek and so far I can't find the usage of apo-before

I believe the more important grammatical issue is the verb "written" being in perfect tense - the Lamb's Book of Life was already written from the foundation of the world.

 

[loDebar]

Well that's the greek word πρό and not ἀπὸ same as for Mt 6:8, Mt 8:29, Mt 24: 38 . So where would ἀπὸ be used as in something before in the scriptures.

Now look I admit I don't know applications of Greek and usage....but where am I missing it? If Rev 13:8 meant (before πρό) rather than from...then why didn't it use πρό?? It used ἀπὸ meaning from.

Translators with bias, or word meanings do change over the years,

If I stand before you today as a speaker to an audience is different than I stand before you in line at the movies

 

[InTheLight]

Translators with bias, or word meanings do change over the years,

If I stand before you today as a speaker to an audience is different than I stand before you in line at the movies

Exactly. "Before" could mean "in front of" or "in the presence of".

 

[HankD]

Exactly. "Before" could mean "in front of" or "in the presence of".

True but apo is not used that way.

From the foundation... from the inception. In fact the foundation is like our word - the foundation of a house. Paul talked about laying a foundation and another building upon it.

The Foundation of the world probably means from the very beginning of the world.

 

[37818]

...

You say "before" is also acceptable to translate from ἀπὸ. I see it as an option with Strong's but it's down on the list....and as you say it's more common to translate it "from".
...

That list is how ἀπὸ was translated in the KJV. Once translated "before." But did not have the meaning of prior as to order but from a place among others. Matthew . . .

 

[HankD]

That list is how ἀπὸ was translated in the KJV. Once translated "before." But did not have the meaning of prior as to order but from a place among others. Matthew . . .

Whatever, whenever, wherever - the Book of Life was already there in toto.

 

[loDebar]

Whatever, whenever, wherever - the Book of Life was already there in toto.

I believe the names in Book of Life were written when you were created. But remember I believe you (your soul) existed before your body.

 

[37818]

Whatever, whenever, wherever - the Book of Life was already there in toto.

There is disagreement when names occur or occurred in the book of life. I am of the view all names are in the book of life from eternity, before the foundation of the world. By reason the elect are elect before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). But the non-elect manage to get their names removed, only the elect have the promise of never having their names removed (Revelation 3:5). The elect are the one's who in turn overcome (1 John 5:4).

Again, I am not a Calvinist.

 

[HankD]

Bottom line: I don't care. here (after the debate) is what our ultimate response should be:

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

 

[37818]

Whatever, whenever, wherever - the Book of Life was already there in toto.

The reference wasn't Matthew, but Luke in Acts 7:45, ". . . Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David, . . ." -- KJV απο as before. ESV, NASB, NIV here as well.

 

[37818]

I believe the names in Book of Life were written when you were created. But remember I believe you (your soul) existed before your body.

Wow. The evidence for the soul in the body does not occur before about the 17th day of conception (". . . the life [soul] of the flesh is in the blood . . . " -- Leviticus 17:11. When early on a cell or cells are separated, that cell or group of cells become another person. An identical twin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And you can't? The point was those verses use the same three Greek words. One of the three words were a different two Greek words. I do not have time even for this as of this moment.

Bruh, he doesn't have to look up the Greek word. He taught it in seminary for 30+ years.

 

[SovereignGrace]

if "from the foundation of the world" applies to the Lamb as it does in every usage, not applying to the "names ", then it is nothing about election

The expression is used 9 of 10 times without using names

ἀπό apó, apo'; a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):—(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with.

You are so anti-election its pitiful. Election is God choosing to save ppl. If you oppose election, then you're saying many are going to be with God that He never chose. You willing to go that far?

 

[SovereignGrace]

But remember I believe you (your soul) existed before your body.

Got any verses to back this claim up?

 

[37818]

Bruh, he doesn't have to look up the Greek word. He taught it in seminary for 30+ years.

There are two Greek phrases used in common to the two sets of verses I cited. All the more I would think he would have understood this.

". . . απο καταβολης κοσμου . . ." The 7 references, Revelation 13:8 & Revelation 17:8 being among them.

I view the meaning of that phrase by the usage of those 7 passages, what they have in common and also how they differ. But the sense of απο is not referenced prior to "the foundation of the world." I would be hard pressed to see a meaning of prior to, "before" as ESV translators chose. With Hebrews 9:26 and Luke 11:50 in mind.

". . . προ καταβολης κοσμου . . ." Three verses use this phrase. I see no doubt that these reference refer to prior to "the foundation of the world." The election (Ephesians 1:4) is God's, and we in coming to faith has no merit on our part. Only for us it has a beginning, our choosing being real.. But God's election has no beginning.

Which brings up another Greek phrase which only occures twice, ". . . εν αγιασμω πνευματος . . . ." Which in my understand explains a lot. as to God's influence on His elect.

 

[tyndale1946]

From the creation of the world...

Before the creation of the world...

Either word indicates an action that has already occurred. If our names were written before or from, it doesn't change the fact that election took place already, and is not an ongoing action.

I hear some say that God looked down through out the ages of time and his election was based on weather they accepted Jesus or rejected him... That is your election?... There are two groups in scripture that show election no one doubts who they belonged to, and the other one is a surprise.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

First Jesus identifies their father, and why they do what they do, they didn't do what they do to become the son of their father the Devil, they did what they did because they are.

The second are the two thieves on the cross with Jesus... Now if Salvation is by decision, opportunity or choice and not by the Sovereign Grace of Almighty God, why did one thief make this statement and the other did not?... HEART CHANGE ALERT!...

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

When someone tells me God came to save everybody, I tell them you need to take a trip to see the potter... The potter has power over the clay, the clay does not have any power over the potter... Salvation is by choice alright but God made the choice... Not by what you did but by what Jesus Christ did and who Jesus Christ is!... Our Savior and King!... Brother Glen

 

[SovereignGrace]

I hear some say that God looked down through out the ages of time and his election was based on weather they accepted Jesus or rejected him... That is your election?... There are two groups in scripture that show election no one doubts who they belonged to, and the other one is a surprise.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

First Jesus identifies their father, and why they do what they do, they didn't do what they do to become the son of their father the Devil, they did what they did because they are.

The second are the two thieves on the cross with Jesus... Now if Salvation is by decision, opportunity or choice and not by the Sovereign Grace of Almighty God, why did one thief make this statement and the other did not?... HEART CHANGE ALERT!...

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

When someone tells me God came to save everybody, I tell them you need to take a trip to see the potter... The potter has power over the clay, the clay does not have any power over the potter... Salvation is by choice alright but God made the choice... Not by what you did but by what Jesus Christ did and who Jesus Christ is!... Our Savior and King!... Brother Glen

Now, now, now, Brother Glen. You know that it ain't fair if God calls some and not the others. God is always Just, and they conflate that with fairness. Being fair would be casting everyone of us heathens into the fire and leaving us in misery. That's fair. They then conflate God being Just with Him being fair. God being Just is God being Righteous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There are two Greek phrases used in common to the two sets of verses I cited. All the more I would think he would have understood this.

". . . απο καταβολης κοσμου . . ." The 7 references, Revelation 13:8 & Revelation 17:8 being among them.

I view the meaning of that phrase by the usage of those 7 passages, what they have in common and also how they differ. But the sense of απο is not referenced prior to "the foundation of the world." I would be hard pressed to see a meaning of prior to, "before" as ESV translators chose. With Hebrews 9:26 and Luke 11:50 in mind.

". . . προ καταβολης κοσμου . . ." Three verses use this phrase. I see no doubt that these reference refer to prior to "the foundation of the world." The election (Ephesians 1:4) is God's, and we in coming to faith has no merit on our part. Only for us it has a beginning, our choosing being real.. But God's election has no beginning.

Which brings up another Greek phrase which only occures twice, ". . . εν αγιασμω πνευματος . . . ." Which in my understand explains a lot. as to God's influence on His elect.

Even if election was 'from' the creation of the world, its an already completed work done by God. Election does not take place in time. Our conversion is what happens in time. God choosing His sheep from the beginning or before the beginning does not change the fact it was settled by God.

 

[loDebar]

Got any verses to back this claim up?

Yes, the question is where are the verses to say otherwise

 

[HankD]

The reference wasn't Matthew, but Luke in Acts 7:45, ". . . Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David, . . ." -- KJV απο as before. ESV, NASB, NIV here as well.

Oh, thanks 3.