Can Non-Cals Explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?

[loDebar]

Actually after Christ's ascension (Hebrews 9:12, 24).

before, ascension before Sunday morning, while He was in the tomb.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Probably after He presented Himself to God as the sacrifice.

 

[37818]

maybe Abraham's bosom like Lazarus

Abraham was in the upper compartment of Hades (Luke 16:23).

 

[TCassidy]

No. That Greek translates as "from/since." The Greek for "before" is προ.

Look it up.

 

[MB]

if grace is soverreign then there can be no common grace.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Nowhere does the word of God say, "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." See John 17:24; 1 Peter 1:20; compare Revelation 13:8; Hebrews 9:26 and Luke 11:50.

Of course not but in the ESV, which is considered a calvie translation, ( I use the ESV by the way) translates it before which is ridiculous. Before, and from say two entirely different things. If it is "from" then it rightly means that the names were written in the book of life from the beginning (Genesis) to now in other words all along the way as they were saved.

If it is before then it fits the calvie doctrine of their incorrect version of election and that is that our names were written before Genesis and before we were ever saved.

They cannot be and are not synonymous.

 

[HankD]

if grace is sovereign then there can be no common grace.
MB

Why or why not? Common grace is not sanctifying grace

Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[HankD]

Of course not but in the ESV, which is considered a calvie translation, ( I use the ESV by the way) translates it before which is ridiculous. Before, and from say two entirely different things. If it is "from" then it rightly means that the names were written in the book of life from the beginning (Genesis) to now in other words all along the way as they were saved.

If it is before then it fits the calvie doctrine of their incorrect version of election and that is that our names were written before Genesis and before we were ever saved.

They cannot be and are not synonymous.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word "written" in the text is in the perfect passive - γέγραπται

perfect passive indicative

The perfect is the tense of complete action...It implies a process but views that process as having reached its consummation and existing in a finished state. The point of completion is always antecedent to the time implied or stated in connection with the use of the perfect.

A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, 1955. pg. 200.

 

[Revmitchell]

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word "written" in the text is in the perfect passive - γέγραπται

perfect passive indicative



A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, 1955. pg. 200.

OK?

 

[HankD]

OK?

The book of life was written antecedent to the foundation of the world.

it does not actually support C or A but I was trying to show that the book of life is not being written as we go which seems (could be wrong) to be what you are saying. Is it?

Generally speaking :

C says names are written in the book by God's unconditional election.

A says names are written in the book by God's omniscient foreknowledge

 

[Revmitchell]

The book of life was written antecedent to the foundation of the world.

it does not actually support C or A but I was trying to show that the book of life is not being written as we go which seems (could be wrong) to be what you are saying. Is it?

Generally speaking :

C says names are written in the book by God's unconditional election.

A says names are written in the book by God's omniscient foreknowledge

Your interpretation of the perfect passive indicative is in conflict with "from". From cannot be translated "before" as those are two completely different ideas. Revelation is a look into the future. At the time of this books being opened it will have been completed. As for now the process is still in motion.

 

[SovereignGrace]

From the creation of the world...

Before the creation of the world...

Either word indicates an action that has already occurred. If our names were written before or from, it doesn't change the fact that election took place already, and is not an ongoing action.

 

[loDebar]

From the creation of the world...

Before the creation of the world...

Either word indicates an action that has already occurred. If our names were written before or from, it doesn't change the fact that election took place already, and is not an ongoing action.

if "from the foundation of the world" applies to the Lamb as it does in every usage, not applying to the "names ", then it is nothing about election

The expression is used 9 of 10 times without using names

ἀπό apó, apo'; a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):—(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with.

 

[37818]

Look it up.

Matthew 13:35
Matthew 25:34
Luke 11:50
Hebrews 4:3
Hebrews 9:26
Revelation 13:8
Revelation 17:8

versus

John 17:24
Ephesians 1:4
1 Peter 1:20

There is a difference in meaning between "from the foundation of the world" and "before the foundation of the world."

Two different Greek words.

 

[TCassidy]

Two different Greek words.

Look up the Greek word. Posting a bunch of verses in English is not looking up the Greek word.

 

[Rockson]

That is not entirely accurate. Rev 13:8 καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.

One of the primary meanings of ἀπὸ is "before." It is more common to translate it "from" but "before" is also acceptable.

Well I don't have expertise in the Greek but seek to do my best in checking out things.

You say "before" is also acceptable to translate from ἀπὸ. I see it as an option with Strong's but it's down on the list....and as you say it's more common to translate it "from".

Things is though I don't see it in any other verse were ἀπὸ is translated as "before" When it comes to something that takes place "before" as in ahead of another I see the greek word πρίν used.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before (πρίν) they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Matt 1:18

So question....can you give us an example where ἀπὸ is used by the NT writers to speak of as we say, something that takes place before? Not saying they're not there....but how about you show us.

 

[HankD]

Your interpretation of the perfect passive indicative is in conflict with "from". From cannot be translated "before" as those are two completely different ideas. Revelation is a look into the future. At the time of this books being opened it will have been completed. As for now the process is still in motion.

That is one way of looking at it.

 

[loDebar]

Well I don't have expertise in the Greek but seek to do my best in checking out things.

You say "before" is also acceptable to translate from ἀπὸ. I see it as an option with Strong's but it's down on the list....and as you say it's more common to translate it "from".

Things is though I don't see it in any other verse were ἀπὸ is translated as "before" When it comes to something that takes place "before" as in ahead of another I see the greek word πρίν used.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before (πρίν) they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Matt 1:18

So question....can you give us an example where ἀπὸ is used by the NT writers to speak of as we say, something that takes place before? Not saying they're not there....but how about you show us.

apo and pro are the two words

ἀπό apó, apo'; a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):—(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with.

πρό pró, pro; a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:—above, ago, before, or ever.

They both have meanings other than what was translated

 

[37818]

before, ascension before Sunday morning, while He was in the tomb.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Probably after He presented Himself to God as the sacrifice.

What was done on the cross was finished on the cross (John 19:28). The ascension was and is that one time event until the second coming (Hebrews 9:12, 24, 28).

 

[37818]

Look up the Greek word. Posting a bunch of verses in English is not looking up the Greek word.

And you can't? The point was those verses use the same three Greek words. One of the three words were a different two Greek words. I do not have time even for this as of this moment.

 

[Rockson]

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Well that's the greek word πρό and not ἀπὸ same as for Mt 6:8, Mt 8:29, Mt 24: 38 . So where would ἀπὸ be used as in something before in the scriptures.

Now look I admit I don't know applications of Greek and usage....but where am I missing it? If Rev 13:8 meant (before πρό) rather than from...then why didn't it use πρό?? It used ἀπὸ meaning from.