Where? I can’t find it.
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Can Non-Cals Explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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Humans bodies are formed , not created from nothing
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Jesus had a body prepared for Him
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The death of Jesus brought unto lost sinners some general benefits, including their own physical resurrections, but the intent of the Cross was to save and secure salvation just for the Elect of God...
37818
Well-Known Member
Look at John 1:3, ". . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." εγένετο twice and γέγονεν once. Same word, different verb form translated "made." Referring to the preincarnate Word being the Creator.Humans bodies are formed , not created from nothing
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Jesus had a body prepared for Him
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
John 1:14, ". . .. And the Word was made flesh, . . ." εγένετο is used.
yes, all things, what is the point here?
37818
Well-Known Member
You made an issue about creation from nothing. I did not. But asked:
When the Son of God became man was that not a creative act? (John 1:3; John 1:14)
So do you or do you not see miracles being creative acts? (John 1:3; John 2:6-11)
jeremiah1five
Member
As a NON-CALVINIST I submit the following:I know how Cals explain it, is all of God and none of us... Man is passive in the operation of Grace and their is nothing that we can do to make it so... God saves by his will, by his terms and his way... I'm sure my Calvinist brethren will agree that God did not have to save any... We didn't deserve it, we didn't earn it and the Salvation of all Gods children were placed in the Son of God Jesus Christ who stood where we could not... I propose to the Non Cals this question after Adam sinned would God the Father again put the Salvation of all that the Father gave the Son in eternity to save again in the hands of his fallen creation?... In my understanding of scripture it is either grace or works and it can't be both, it is one or the other... So does God wait on the sinner to save him or does the sinner wait on God?... Can man come to God before God changes his heart and brings him or does he come on his own?... The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God is paramount in my Salvation and in my Calvinist brethren also... But I was just wondering in all that it entails... I know how the Cals understand it but how do the Non Cals explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?... Or can they?... Saying that there is also a responsibility to God not to get saved, but because being a child of God you are!... Brother Glen
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God cannot re-duplicate Himself in Himself.
First, God made Covenant with the Son and the Spirit in Trinity.
Then, God contemplated His Elect in Himself, in Trinity, BEFORE He created anything.
Then God created "heaven" earth, and man. (but there is no 'then' in Eternity, in God Himself for eternity is not a place or location of TIME. Eternity is God Himself.
All God is doing in TIME is preparing BODIES to go with those names in the book of life.
It's a done deal. When God breathed into the nostrils of the first man He blew us, the Elect, into the loins of man in order to be born at the appointed TIME, and born-again at the appointed TIME.
Free will in man is an illusion. Not even God has free will, but one will: Good.
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Sounds like God has free will to me!... Btw Goodwill is a place you take items you don't want anymore... Brother Glen
jeremiah1five
Member
God's will is confined by the Covenant He made in Trinity with the Son and the Spirit, and in accordance to His nature.Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Sounds like God has free will to me!... Btw Goodwill is a place you take items you don't want anymore... Brother Glen
To us it may seem free, but it is not. God is following a predetermined plan. Nothing is left to chance.
He knows the end from the beginning because He ordained the end.
And the beginning. (speaking within the realm of TIME, that is.)
This OP is about the Sovereign Grace of God not his free will or lack of it... This discussion has been going on for quite a while and I assure you Squire will soon close it... I suggest if you want to talk about the Free Will of God or lack there of you start a topic on it., then you will get the response of those who are interested... Just a friendly reminder to one whose been here quite awhile... Btw Welcome to the BB... Brother Glen
jeremiah1five
Member
Hello tyndale1946.This OP is about the Sovereign Grace of God not his free will or lack of it... This discussion has been going on for quite a while and I assure you Squire will soon close it... I suggest if you want to talk about the Free Will of God or lack there of you start a topic on it., then you will get the response of those who are interested... Just a friendly reminder to one whose been here quite awhile... Btw Welcome to the BB... Brother Glen
Then let me just say the grace of God is confined by Covenant.
jeremiah1five
Member
Ya well good luck trying to make sense of 1) Koine prepositions and 2 ) Translators inconsistencies dealing with a nuance set accompanying prepositions which has apparently become unknown to us. Pick up any Greek grammar and preposition usage is very difficult unraveling.
An English example.
I am in love. versus I am in Boston.
So if we are in the Spirit which of the above subtle nuances is correct translating into English for instance?
Are we in a state of being or a locality? (Baptist vs. Charismatic).
God's is not confined by anything only obligates Himself by His Promises
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That you will have to decide for yourself, sir.
One thing I can state about translation:
I don't see faithful translation as being part of understanding the nuances...I see translation as the carrying over of the words exactly ( or as closely as possible ), to the target language, from the ones that are in the source language. However, knowing what those words mean, when read together in a sentence, paragraph or book, is not dependent upon translation, but upon comprehension.
Comprehension is regulated by the presence or absence of the new nature ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ) and the Holy Spirit ( 1 John 2:20-21, 1 John 2:27 ).
I don't see men being able to comprehend the Scriptures, apart from God's intervention ( Matthew 13:11-13, Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, Acts of the Apostles 16:14, Romans 11:7-8, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
From my perspective, both, depending on context.
Some phrases in God's word, for example, offer both a state of being, and a "locality".
" [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. <-------State of being.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. <----- State of being.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: <--- Locality ( God Himself was manifested in the flesh ) followed by... Both? Let's see. He walked as a man, and was perfect, as a man. Yet he condemned sin in the flesh, both in His own and in the believer's ( state of being ). I need to think about that one some more. For now, I'd say "both".
4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. <----- Both.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. <------- State of being, not locality. Otherwise, no one, whether in Christ or not, could be found pleasing to God ( Romans 12:1-2, Romans 5:9, Hebrews 11:6 ) unless they have gone to be with Him. But, Christ Himself was never "in the flesh" ( state of being ), or He could never have pleased God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:1-9 ) <----- State of being, followed by state of being, followed by locality.
The carnal mind is at enmity ( at odds ) with God.
It is not "in the Spirit" ( state of being ) with God, but is "in the flesh" ( state of being ).
" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. <----- State of being.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. <----- State of being.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ) <----- State of being.
God's children, those that are "in the Spirit"( state of being ), comprehend God's word for themselves ( John 8:43-47 ), at least eventually.
The devil's children, those that are not "in the Spirit" ( state of being ), can never comprehend God's word for themselves ( John 8:43-47 ).
This is why I state that believers literally have "the mind of Christ" ( spiritually )...because they are "in the Spirit", not "in the flesh" ( state of being ).
" For I know that in me ( that is, in my flesh, ) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. <----- Locality.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." ( Romans 7:18-20 ) <---- Locality.
They are "in Christ" ( state of being ), not "in the flesh" ( again, state of being ).
" [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. <------- Locality.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. " ( Galatians 5:16-17 ) <----- State of being.
" If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." ( Galatians 5:25 ) <------ State of being, followed by locality.
Yet, they may not necessarily be "in the Spirit" ( locality ), but are always "in the flesh" ( locality ) until they go to meet their Lord.
That's the way I currently see it, subject to change as the Lord leads me in my studies.
May God bless you greatly, good sir.
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That's the way I currently see it, subject to change as the Lord leads me in my studies.
I understand.
Calvinist say that God would loose His sovereignty if He allowed man the free will to choose whom he would serve. Since God has offered up His son to die for the sins of the world. Jn. 3:16 Then all man must be able to respond to the message of the gospel. The gospel is good news if only the supposed elect Calvinist could be saved it would be sad news.
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