Can Non Calvinists Believe the Gospel Of The Kingdom? Is that Even Possible?

[Silverhair]

You seem not to have answered the fat that Paul not only says that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, but he also cannot even know them. How then can the natural man believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? Is such a thing not a thing of God?"

You have focused on one verse but ignore the rest of scripture. Paul also said the gospel is the power of God for salvation, also those that hear and respond to that gospel will be saved also if they would confess and believe they would be saved. So if what you think is true then Paul was lying as none of those things could be true.

But you also have failed to read that verse in it's context. Which seems to be a common problem on this board.

The context shows us that Paul is comparing the saved, spiritual man, and unsaved, natural man.

Note his words on vs 6 "Among the mature, {saved} however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing."

Which he carries on in vs 7-8 "No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

What are the mysteries that natural man does not understand, the same one that new Christians do not fully understand. Vs 9-10 "
Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."

Those that are indwelt by the Spirit of God can know the mysteries of God vs 12

So Dave it is not that the natural man cannot accept them it is that he will not accept the reality of God and salvation through faith in Him. Thus because he has not trusted in God he cannot understand the mysteries of God.

 

[Silverhair]

I did not see where Silverhair said either of those two things. And no, I don't believe either of those, unless we're talking about babies and children too young or people too incapacitated to understand much of anything, much less believe the Gospel.

That is just @canadyjd hobby horse.

By his logic none of the OT saints were saved and as you pointed out no babies or mentally handicapped could ever be saved.

He just seems to have a lower view of the power and love of God than I do.

 

[Paleouss]

The context shows us that Paul is comparing the saved, spiritual man, and unsaved, natural man.

Note his words on vs 6 "Among the mature, {saved} however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing."

Silverhair, praise be to God for this glorious day. I hope your day has been a good one.

I noticed that you and @David Lamb were referring to 1Corinthians 2 and thought I might chime in uninvited. There are some things in which I fully agree with my Calvinist brothers on...and others I don't. How to read 1 Corinthians 2 is one in which I disagree with them.

The first point that I want to make regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14, and is frequently overlooked, is that the context of the verse starts back in 1Cor 2:6 with “wisdom among those who are mature”. This context, which is largely ignored and the proper context in which the verse 1Corinthians 2:14 refers, imo, is very important in understanding what Paul was actually saying. This context of “mature” wisdom is like the concept that Paul develops in 1 Corinthians of “solid food” (1Cor 3:2, also Heb 5:12, 14) that is contrasted against the wisdom for “newborn babes” (1Pet 2:2) , i.e., “milk” (1Cor 3:1-3, Heb 5:12, 14).

I see the progression going like this...
1. Paul is chastising the Corinthians for not progressing spiritually (starts in 1Cor 1:10).
2. One should eventually grow to a “wisdom among those who are mature” (1Cor 2:6) and this "wisdom of the mature" is what Paul is speaking.
3. This kind of maturing leads to the digestion of mature spiritual solid foods (1Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12, Heb 5:14).
4. These mature spiritual solid foods are not digestible by those new in Christ or the natural man (1Cor 2:14), i.e., the carnal minded.
5. Since babes in Christ are still like the carnal minded (1Cor 3:2-3), i.e., natural man, they cannot yet digest spiritually solid foods. That which Paul is speaking, i.e, mature wisdom.
6. Therefore, if you are stuck in being like babes in Christ and not maturing to more solid foods, then you, like the natural man, cannot digest and understand the the more spiritually mature foods that you should have progressed toward already.

*** Paul is saying that the wisdom of the mature cannot be understood by the carnal minded (which no-one would dispute)...which are what babes in Christ still are (1Cor 3:2-3), i.e., carnal minded that need spiritual milk and cannot be fed mature food.

Paul is not intending to paint a picture that the natural man does not receive and understand some glimpses of the divine grace (just as John Calvin claims that the natural man does receive such).

There is therefore some knowledge even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up. (Calvin Commentaries Hebrews 6:4)

Paul is saying that the carnal man and those new in Christ cannot understand the more mature wisdom of the Spirit. Which everyone would agree with, imo.

Peace to you brother

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, praise be to God for this glorious day. I hope your day has been a good one.

I noticed that you and @David Lamb were referring to 1Corinthians 2 and thought I might chime in uninvited. There are some things in which I fully agree with my Calvinist brothers on...and others I don't. How to read 1 Corinthians 2 is one in which I disagree with them.

The first point that I want to make regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14, and is frequently overlooked, is that the context of the verse starts back in 1Cor 2:6 with “wisdom among those who are mature”. This context, which is largely ignored and the proper context in which the verse 1Corinthians 2:14 refers, imo, is very important in understanding what Paul was actually saying. This context of “mature” wisdom is like the concept that Paul develops in 1 Corinthians of “solid food” (1Cor 3:2, also Heb 5:12, 14) that is contrasted against the wisdom for “newborn babes” (1Pet 2:2) , i.e., “milk” (1Cor 3:1-3, Heb 5:12, 14).

I see the progression going like this...
1. Paul is chastising the Corinthians for not progressing spiritually (starts in 1Cor 1:10).
2. One should eventually grow to a “wisdom among those who are mature” (1Cor 2:6) and this "wisdom of the mature" is what Paul is speaking.
3. This kind of maturing leads to the digestion of mature spiritual solid foods (1Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12, Heb 5:14).
4. These mature spiritual solid foods are not digestible by those new in Christ or the natural man (1Cor 2:14), i.e., the carnal minded.
5. Since babes in Christ are still like the carnal minded (1Cor 3:2-3), i.e., natural man, they cannot yet digest spiritually solid foods. That which Paul is speaking, i.e, mature wisdom.
6. Therefore, if you are stuck in being like babes in Christ and not maturing to more solid foods, then you, like the natural man, cannot digest and understand the the more spiritually mature foods that you should have progressed toward already.

*** Paul is saying that the wisdom of the mature cannot be understood by the carnal minded (which no-one would dispute)...which are what babes in Christ still are (1Cor 3:2-3), i.e., carnal minded that need spiritual milk and cannot be fed mature food.

Paul is not intending to paint a picture that the natural man does not receive and understand some glimpses of the divine grace (just as John Calvin claims that the natural man does receive such).

Paul is saying that the carnal man and those new in Christ cannot understand the more mature wisdom of the Spirit. Which everyone would agree with, imo.

Peace to you brother

Well stated. Now if those of a certain view will just follow the logic of it.

Always like to see well reasoned comments. Even those I may disagree with.

 

[canadyjd]

I did not see where Silverhair said either of those two things. And no, I don't believe either of those, unless we're talking about babies and children too young or people too incapacitated to understand much of anything, much less believe the Gospel.

Read his posts carefully. He says the gospel is one of many means by which God saves people.

Glad you don’t believe it, too.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

That is just @canadyjd hobby horse.

By his logic none of the OT saints were saved and as you pointed out no babies or mentally handicapped could ever be saved.

He just seems to have a lower view of the power and love of God than I do.

The OT saints were saved the same way we are, by God’s grace and faith in His Messiah.

I know you are incapable of understanding this truth, being blinded by secular philosophy as you are.

You deny God’s Word and His power when you claim God must use many means to bring people to salvation, instead of the ONE BIBLICAL means of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Peace to you

 

[5 point Gillinist]

The OT saints were saved the same way we are, by God’s grace and faith in His Messiah.

I know you are incapable of understanding this truth, being blinded by secular philosophy as you are.

You deny God’s Word and His power when you claim God must use many means to bring people to salvation, instead of the ONE BIBLICAL means of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Peace to you

For as "evil" as Calvinism is often called it sure seems like a lot of slander and intentional misrepresentation, as well as outright personal attacks are normative of the opposition's side, the supposed side of true biblical understanding - which would incidentally include love, charity, kindness, etc.

 

[Silverhair]

The OT saints were saved the same way we are, by God’s grace and faith in His Messiah.

I know you are incapable of understanding this truth, being blinded by secular philosophy as you are.

You deny God’s Word and His power when you claim God must use many means to bring people to salvation, instead of the ONE BIBLICAL means of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Peace to you

See that you still want to limit God is how and whom He can save.

You must have a real problem with Heb 11.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death:

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, without knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. Did you see any presentation of the gospel?

And you also have to deal with infants and the mentally challenged.

Those in the OT trusted in God without hearing the gospel message or of Christ Jesus but you will disagree as it does not fit your particular view.

It would seem I have a higher view of the sovereignty and love of God for His creation than you do.

 

[Silverhair]

Read his posts carefully. He says the gospel is one of many means by which God saves people.

Glad you don’t believe it, too.

Peace to you

Yes @canadyjd you should read my posts carefully. They will prove helpful for you in over coming your misunderstanding of the love of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

Mr.W,

What part of what you believe is Christianity puts Calvinism outside of it?
Do they deny the Trinity?
Do they not believe in the blood of Christ?
Do they deny the necessity of The New Birth?

 

[David Lamb]

You have focused on one verse but ignore the rest of scripture. Paul also said the gospel is the power of God for salvation, also those that hear and respond to that gospel will be saved also if they would confess and believe they would be saved. So if what you think is true then Paul was lying as none of those things could be true.

Yes, it is the power of God that brings about salvation. I fully believe that.

But you also have failed to read that verse in it's context. Which seems to be a common problem on this board.

The context shows us that Paul is comparing the saved, spiritual man, and unsaved, natural man.

Yes, I agree that when Paul talks about the natural man, he is comparing the saved, spiritual man, and unsaved, natural man. What have I written that makes you think I meant anything different?

Note his words on vs 6 "Among the mature, {saved} however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing."

Which he carries on in vs 7-8 "No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

What are the mysteries that natural man does not understand, the same one that new Christians do not fully understand. Vs 9-10 "
Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."

Those that are indwelt by the Spirit of God can know the mysteries of God vs 12

So Dave it is not that the natural man cannot accept them it is that he will not accept the reality of God and salvation through faith in Him. Thus because he has not trusted in God he cannot understand the mysteries of God.

My point is that if he can neither know nor receive the things of God, then he can neither know nor receive the truth of salvation only in the crucified and risen Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. That salvation is surely a £"thing of God."