Can omniscience choose?

[Skandelon]

Here it is:

- A choice requires the acquisition of previously not held information.
- Omniscience BY DEFINTION means that there is NO information which is not held.
- Therefore omniscience cannot make a choice.

That is LOGIC.

Would you agree that is human finite logic? Or is this logic clearly spelled out and concluded in the scriptures by God? If so, where does he say "omniscience cannot make a choice" or anything remotely similar?

Your so called logic is the same used by Mormons:

- God is one
- Oneness by definition means there is no more than one
- Therefore the Triune understanding of god cannot be the true God

His ways are higher than our ways Luke. Just stick with the biblical concepts and terms and don't allow you intellect and speculative reasoning distort the clear revelations with which God chose to reveal himself. If God didn't want us to believe he made choices then he could have used your terms to describe God's workings (i.e. "God doesn't make real choices"), but instead His terms reveal that He makes choices. I'll stick with the biblical terms...I actually can understand them. Go figure, maybe that is why they are used! Why go beyond them?

Even according to you the scriptures teach, "God chose to save you." But couldn't it just have easily said, "God from eternity past, without beginning, saves his elect as it has been the infinite plan of God." The word "choice" doesn't have to be employed to communicate your point of view.

Listen the Bible says that God has nostrils, you say he does not. I'LL BELIEVE THE BIBLE you Bible hater!

See how ridiculous that is?

What would be ridiculous is dismissing the concept that God gave life to Adam simply because the scripture used Anthropomorphic ("nostril") language to describe how God did it. Just as you dismiss that God makes choices simply because you can't logically understand how an infinite omniscient God functions.

The absurdity of this line of arguments can further be demonstrated in speculating on how God thinks, communicates or functions at all. Explain how an omnipotent being thinks. Explain how he communicates?

Was there a first time for Him to speak to a creature? How does an infinite being experience something new like that, or does He? Was there a first time to use his audible voice in time and space? Was that a new experience for him, how so? How does God think if he has already known every thought he is going to think? Explain how he functions in time and space. Explain how that differs from how he functioned before the creation of time and space. Explain if time was new to God when it was first created, if not has time always existed? If so, is time and matter eternal since it has never been new to God?

It makes me laugh because I can just imagine the ants in my back yard huddling together trying to contemplate the strange shinny thing I'm typing on and then drawing together their little ant-made logical constructs to try and define me and my workings. I can see one of them drawing bold brash conclusions based on his limited world view thinking he has got me all figured out. :type:

That reminds me, got to do some exterminating today... :laugh:

 

[Winman]

Both of you are ignoring the fact that Jacob wrestled "a man" and this man is identified as God. This is not anthropomorphic, this is a literal account of Jacob wrestling with God. And it is obvious God limited himself in power as Jacob prevailed in this wrestling match. So, if it is to be taken literally that God limited his omnipotence in this scripture, it should also be taken literally that God limited his omniscience when he asked Jacob's name.

You folks can call me heretic or anything you wish, I am simply believeing God's word for what it says. This was a literal account and should be believed as such, whether we understand it or not.

It is those who refuse to believe God's word who are the real heretics.

 

[jbh28]

You simply refuse to believe the scriptures. Did God limit his omnipotence in this passage? If so, then why could God not also limit his omniscience?

Your problem understanding scripture is nothing but unbelief. You esteem the doctrines of men over the word of God.

You didn't answer the question, that's interesting. You have the reading skills of a child if you think that I'm ignoring Scripture. Just because somebody asks a question doesn't mean that don't already know the answer. That's something you assume. My question demonstrated that, but you already knew that.

 

[Winman]

If we adopt the position that God's asking Jacob his name means God didn't know Jacob's name, I suppose we must hold that when God called out in Eden "Where are you?", he really didn't know where Adam and Eve were.

I am trying to get my mind to understand how an omniscient God can decide not to know something. Did he never know it? Or did he decide to temporarily "un-know" it?

I can hardly visualize God saying, "I don't want to know that, so I won't." Why would God not want to know something, if in fact, he could know it?

snip...

I still contend that to limit God's omniscience (or to hold that God himself limits it), is also an attack on his immutability.

I hardly see how God's own words can be an attack on himself. It may be an attack on your presuppositions, but God cannot attack himself.

This is the problem with Calvinism (and other systems too), Calvinism is logically consistent with itself as a system, but it is not logically consistent with scripture.

Your system demands God knows everything at all times, but the scriptures show otherwise. In this account of God wrestling with Jacob he is neither all powerful or all knowing. Do I understand that? NO. Nevertheless, this is what God has revealed to us in this particular passage and I believe it.

It is like when Jesus told Nicodemus he was in heaven when he was speaking to Nicodemus.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I believe this verse gives us a clue how these things can be. God can be in heaven and unlimited, and at the same time be on earth and be limited. This explains the several verses of scripture where God does not seem to be omniscient.

 

[Robert Snow]

But what concerns me is that there may be some young ignorant person who thinks Winman knows what he is talking about who WILL live long enough to follow Winman's assertions out to their damnable end.

Why would this concern you. As a Calvinist you believe the Elect are chosen by God and there is nothing they can do to change it, right? Why would you care what anyone believes, if they belong to God, their fate is sealed!

 

[jbh28]

I believe this verse gives us a clue how these things can be. God can be in heaven and unlimited, and at the same time be on earth and be limited. This explains the several verses of scripture where God does not seem to be omniscient.

Or, we can take the Scriptures literally where it says that God knows everything and stop assuming that He doesn't when he asks a question.

 

[Winman]

You didn't answer the question, that's interesting. You have the reading skills of a child if you think that I'm ignoring Scripture. Just because somebody asks a question doesn't mean that don't already know the answer. That's something you assume. My question demonstrated that, but you already knew that.

Yes, and asking a question doesn't mean the person KNOWS the answer. Your argument proves nothing whatsoever.

That is why I pointed out that Jacob prevailed over God in this wrestling match. It would be just as blasphemous to deny God's omnipotence as it would be to deny his omniscience, but you cannot deny that God limited his omnipotence in this passage can you? NO, it is said twice that Jacob prevailed over God.

And if this is a literal account (and it is), then it should be taken literally that God can limit his omniscience or omnipotence when he desires.

It actually makes sense, because no man can behold God in his glory and live. So, to come down to earth and personally interact with men, God would necessarily need to limit himself to prevent killing those he wished to interact with. This explains why he did not know where Adam, Eve, and Abel were, why he had to "see" Sodom to "know" if they were doing as he had heard, and how he could say to Abraham, "for NOW I know that thou fearest God".

Just believe, don't think you can figure God out, none of us can.

 

[Skandelon]

Clarification

It makes me laugh because I can just imagine the ants in my back yard huddling together trying to contemplate the strange shinny thing I'm typing on and then drawing together their little ant-made logical constructs to try and define me and my workings. I can see one of them drawing bold brash conclusions based on his limited world view thinking he has got me all figured out. :type:

BTW, just so I'm clear, I'm including myself in among those ants as one trying to understand our maker... I just happen to be the one who seems to be recognizing his "ant-like" qualities relative to our God and feel the need to point that out. So, it's not meant to be an insult...just a shift in perspective.

 

[tinytim]

There is one thing that God has learned... and before I'm flamed as a heretic.. hear me out...

Heb 5:8 says that the son learned obedience through suffering...
Before Jesus came to earth, God never had anyone he had to obey before... no one is more powerful than him...

When Jesus came in the flesh, he learned Obedience...

I wonder how this affected the Godhead... Would this have been something new to God, that he had never experienced....?

 

[Skandelon]

There is one thing that God has learned... and before I'm flamed as a heretic.. hear me out...

Heb 5:8 says that the son learned obedience through suffering...
Before Jesus came to earth, God never had anyone he had to obey before... no one is more powerful than him...

When Jesus came in the flesh, he learned Obedience...

I wonder how this affected the Godhead... Would this have been something new to God, that he had never experienced....?

Great question. How does an infinite all knowing being experience being a man on earth for the first time?
How is it that he can't learn anything but at the same time experience something He has never experienced before?

 

[jbh28]

Yes, and asking a question doesn't mean the person KNOWS the answer. Your argument proves nothing whatsoever.

I wasn't making that argument. Just admit your error.

God is omniscience of all things.

 

[Winman]

I wasn't making that argument. Just admit your error.

God is omniscience of all things.

I haven't made an error, the natural reading of this passage strongly suggests God did not know Jacob's name. I would bet if you had twenty ten year old kids who had not been subjected to someone else's presuppositions read this passage carefully and then asked them if God knew Jacob's name, all twenty would shout, NO!

If God wants us to believe he is always omniscient, why would he write scripture that makes him appear as not? That doesn't make one bit of sense, yet we have numerous examples of this in scripture.

It is you that suggests God is so silly to ask a question when he already knows the answer. Absurd.

The lengths a person will go to cling to error!

 

[Tom Butler]

In Genesis 4, after Cain had killed Abel, God asked Cain, "where's your brother?"

Can answered, "I don't know, am I my brother's keeper?"

God then answered: "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground," etc.

So, was God's question for Cain a request for information or a rhetorical question? When God said "Listen!," that means he already knew the answer.

BTW, this story always reminds me of the monkey who was asked the whereabouts of the zookeeper.
"I don't know. Am I my keeper's brother?"

 

[jbh28]

I haven't made an error, the natural reading of this passage strongly suggests God did not know Jacob's name.

Not at all. You assume that a question is asked because someone doesn't know the info. That's an assumption on your part which goes against the Scriptures.

I would bet if you had twenty ten year old kids who had not been subjected to someone else's presuppositions read this passage carefully and then asked them if God knew Jacob's name, all twenty would shout, NO!

Again, reaffirming my saying that you are reading as a child.

If God wants us to believe he is always omniscient, why would he write scripture that makes him appear as not? That doesn't make one bit of sense, yet we have numerous examples of this in scripture.

Well, He said he's omniscient and no Scriptures ever says he is not. You are reading like a child(your admission...I think you said 10 year old).

It is you that suggests God is so silly to ask a question when he already knows the answer. Absurd.

Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question?

The lengths a person will go to cling to error!

Sorry, but the Bible CLEARLY says God knows everything. You go against Scripture to say that God doesn't know something by assuming. You can't deny it. No where in the passage does it say God didn't know. You assume he didn't because he asked. Hearing the response shows why he asked the Question. He was changing his name. (of course you probably think God didn't know the name of Jacob and when he learned of the name decided to change it.)

Bible: God knows everything
Winman: since God asked a question, he must not have known the answer, so God really doesn't know everything.

Which one do you think I'll pick----guess what, I already know the answer to this question. I know this is difficult for you. Maybe you should not have 10 year olds teach you how to read and start reading as an adult.

 

[Winman]

Not at all. You assume that a question is asked because someone doesn't know the info. That's an assumption on your part which goes against the Scriptures.
Again, reaffirming my saying that you are reading as a child.

Well, He said he's omniscient and no Scriptures ever says he is not. You are reading like a child(your admission...I think you said 10 year old).
Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question?
Sorry, but the Bible CLEARLY says God knows everything. You go against Scripture to say that God doesn't know something by assuming. You can't deny it. No where in the passage does it say God didn't know. You assume he didn't because he asked. Hearing the response shows why he asked the Question. He was changing his name. (of course you probably think God didn't know the name of Jacob and when he learned of the name decided to change it.)

Bible: God knows everything
Winman: since God asked a question, he must not have known the answer, so God really doesn't know everything.

Even if you were correct, which I do not believe you are, you must admit God limited his power. Twice in this account it says Jacob prevailed over God. God had to ask Jacob to let him go.

So, what is the difference? If scripture shows God can limit his power, your concept of God is error.

This also does not negate the fact that God said he would go down and see if Sodom and Gomorrah had done according to the cry he heard, and if not, he would KNOW. (Gen 18:21)

It also does not negate the fact that God told Abraham, "for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God,". (Gen 22:12)

These were not questions, but statements by God. You are forced to explain away God's words.

 

[jbh28]

Even if you were correct, which I do not believe you are, you must admit God limited his power. Twice in this account it says Jacob prevailed over God. God had to ask Jacob to let him go.

So, what is the difference? If scripture shows God can limit his power, your concept of God is error.

This also does not negate the fact that God said he would go down and see if Sodom and Gomorrah had done according to the cry he heard, and if not, he would KNOW. (Gen 18:21)

It also does not negate the fact that God told Abraham, "for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God,". (Gen 22:12)

These were not questions, but statements by God. You are forced to explain away God's words.

And your not? What do you do when the Bible clearly says that God knows everything? Don't you "explain away God's words" there? You see, it doesn't say God doesn't know. You assume that because He asks a question. That cannot be a valid interpretation since the Bible says He knows everything.

 

[Winman]

And your not? What do you do when the Bible clearly says that God knows everything? Don't you "explain away God's words" there? You see, it doesn't say God doesn't know. You assume that because He asks a question. That cannot be a valid interpretation since the Bible says He knows everything.

Do you really think anyone reading this would fail to notice you completely ignore the fact that God clearly limited his omnipotence in this passage, which tends to support my view that he also limited his omniscience?

I ask you directly if you have the courage to answer honestly, did God limit his omnipotence when he wrestled with Jacob?

You call me a child, let's see if you are a man.

 

[jbh28]

Do you really think anyone reading this would fail to notice you completely ignore the fact that God clearly limited his omnipotence in this passage, which tends to support my view that he also limited his omniscience?

I ask you directly if you have the courage to answer honestly, did God limit his omnipotence when he wrestled with Jacob?

You call me a child, let's see if you are a man.

First, non sequitur. Also, can you stay on subject? We are talking about omniscience. And I didn't call you a child, I said you read like one(which you admitted when you said 10 year olds would agree with you).

Also, how is this even a response to what I said? What do you do with clear passages that say that God knows everything? You deny that by assuming something in the passage. Not all questions are meant to find out the answer because the questioner didn't know the answer already. If you think that when you read, you are reading as a child would read. You cannot make an assumption in a passage that contradicts Scripture. God knows everything. When He asks a question, he already knows the answer to that question. We do this all the time don't we? (hint: I already know the answer to that question.)

A question is asked. We have possibilities of why the question was asked. We are not told why, so we must assume. If our assumption contradicts Scripture(like saying he didn't know the answer) we are forced to throw out that interpretation on the grounds that it contradicts Scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

First, non sequitur. Also, can you stay on subject? We are talking about omniscience. And I didn't call you a child, I said you read like one(which you admitted when you said 10 year olds would agree with you).

Also, how is this even a response to what I said? What do you do with clear passages that say that God knows everything? You deny that by assuming something in the passage. Not all questions are meant to find out the answer because the questioner didn't know the answer already. If you think that when you read, you are reading as a child would read. You cannot make an assumption in a passage that contradicts Scripture. God knows everything. When He asks a question, he already knows the answer to that question. We do this all the time don't we? (hint: I already know the answer to that question.)

A question is asked. We have possibilities of why the question was asked. We are not told why, so we must assume. If our assumption contradicts Scripture(like saying he didn't know the answer) we are forced to throw out that interpretation on the grounds that it contradicts Scripture.

You're wasting your time, aren't you?

WAIT A MINUTE! We already knew the answer to that question! Could I have been asking a question that I already knew the answer to in order to make a point???

No WAY!

I put this guy on ignore.

My experience on bb has been much more fruitful ever since.

I recommend you consider doing the same.

 

[Winman]

It's not just about omniscience. This literal story of Jacob wrestling with God shows God limiting himself in power, his omnipotence. And neither of you has the courage to confess the truth.

Oh, I can see why you would want to ignore me, because I present scripture that refutes your doctrine.

It just shows me you are more interested in following your man-made doctrine than knowing the truth from God's word.