Can omniscience choose?

My point of ten year olds is that this story of Jacob wrestling with God is very simple and straightforward, a young person could easily understand it. Also, that the natural reading shows God did not know Jacob's name.

I do not deny that God in his glory in heaven is omniscient, I believe that. But the scriptures also show that in some instances God limits himself in his attributes. I believe this is when God comes down and personally interacts with man. In such instances God would need to limit himself, because no man can see God in his glory and live.

So, when we read of Adam, or Enoch, or Noah "walking with God", God must have limited himself or they would have died.

 

You sure are quick to put people you don't agree with on Ignore! I guess it's easier than answering difficult questions. It's the cowardly way out!

 

No, the natural reading shows that God asked a question.

Now, you made mention about omnipotence here. I was thinking about it this morning. God allowed someone to be "stronger" than He. OK, did God still have all the power? Of course. He was stronger, just allowed someone else to "win." Here in this story, does God still have all the knowledge? Yes! That's my point. We don't have why God asked the question, but because he didn't know the name isn't one of them.

I understand where you are coming from on this. Just remember as in the omnipotence, God still have the power, so in omniscience, God still has the knowledge. (ok, badly worded sentence...)

Anyway, have a blessed Resurrection Day!

 

Now we are getting somewhere. So you agree that at times God is able to limit himself, in this case so much so that Jacob could prevail in a wrestling match?

I doubt you ever get Luke to agree.

And I contend it is possible God also limits his omniscience as well, thus easily explaining many verses where God makes it appear as though he is not omniscient.

Now, it's difficult to understand how God could be in heaven and be omnipotent and omniscient, and at the same time be on earth with limited attributes, but I think the scriptures show this.

This is why I quoted John 3:13 where Jesus told Nicodemus he was in heaven, yet Jesus was talking to Nicodemus (and limited in some ways as a man) at the same time.

If Jesus had come to earth in his glory, every man he met would drop dead.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory I had with thee before the world was.

You see here that Jesus at this moment did not have his glory, he was limited.

I am no heretic, you will find my positions come from scripture.

 

Ohhhh, LOL. Yea East be east & West be west & never the twain...:laugh:

 

Noncalvinists have such a small god.

 

Yeah, and I can't sleep nights worrying whether you or Luke will respond to my posts.

The reason Luke and others ignore me is because I present real challenges to your doctrine that often you cannot answer.

You guys think people are stupid, nobody is fooled by this except yourselves.

 

So, when the scriptures say Jacob wrestled "a man" and then Jacob says, " for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." he was wrestling a spirit? (Gen 32:24-30)

And don't think people don't notice you use the lower case "g" when you spelled god. You are implying that Skandelon and other non- Cals worship a false god in your response.

And how do you explain that Jacob prevailed over God when they wrestled?

 

Will anyone address the question of the OP, rather than just whether or not he knew Jacob's name or not?

And Aaron, I think your comment is probably not within the the realm of what is acceptable according to the rules of the board, and certainly isn't in good form if you want to be taken seriously in this discussion.

 

So are you advocating that God has the knowledge but chooses not to use it? Doesn't really make sense, but that's better than denying the omniscience of God. Strength and knowledge are two different things. How one works doesn't mean that the other works the same way.

Understand. Jesus had two natures. A fully human nature(100% man) and divine nature(100% God). How these two nature communicated with each other is difficult to understand.

maybe you need to define your definitions better. It almost seems as if you are advocating something different now.

 

I think what some believe on this is that God can choose to relate to man on their level. So, in the same manner that Jesus, being fully God and fully man was able to limit his knowledge of future events, and feel pain, weep and have other human emotions, God as a person can do the same thing in relation to us anytime.

I personally don't attempt to argue that God chooses not to know somethings because I don't see that specifically taught in scripture. I don't like drawing conclusions that the scriptures themselves do not draw. We are finite linear thinking creatures and when we start speculating as to what an infinite God can or can't do or as to how He functions when relating within time and space we are bound to make mistakes which could lead to false conclusions.

And if 100% God can choose to step out of eternity and into a finite world in order to communicate and relate to us personally, then I don't believe there is any limit to what God might do in order to make himself known to us and to relate to us and a real personal friend and father.

 

I am not sure. The question that haunts me is, Why would God make statements that make him to appear not omniscient at times? In Genesis 18 alone he does this twice. In vs. 9 he asks Abraham where Sarah is. This is not a rhetorical question, but a direct question. Then, in vs. 21 he says "I will go down now, and see WHETHER they have done altogether to the cry of it, and IF not, I will know."

Why would God say things that makes him appear not to be omniscient? Why would he use words like "whether" or "if"? These are strange words for an omniscient person to use.

And God was not asking a question here, he was speaking to himself!

At the same time, God appears omniscient in vs. 15, as he knew Sarah laughed within herself (vs. 12).

So, I am saying I do not quite understand this, but I do not disregard or simply dismiss these questions and statements God has made in the scriptures.

I believe God is infinitely more intelligent than us, and knows how to properly express himself at all times. So, I do not understand why God would ask questions or make statements that make him to appear not omniscient, unless that is how he wants us to view him in these instances.

But we do clearly see God limited his omnipotence when he wrestled Jacob (he also asked his name), so it might be possible God also limits his omniscience at times.

 

It's kinda funny. I had to make a choice the other day: Whether to choose option 1 or option 2. Option 1 was how the system should have been designed and implemented in the first place, but would require an entire new security testing and evaluation for certification and accreditation. Option 2 was junkier, adding additional devices rather than streamlining the architecture, but would require no additional certification.

In both cases, I had all the information necessary for both options, and knew the outcome of each option before I chose. The decision was, which outcome was I willing to accept?

So - if I had all the information necessary before making my choice, does that mean it wasn't a "real" choice?

 

Cool down brother! I've noticed that most on this forum have no exegetical skills, and are ignorant of what scripture teachs.

I will never tell another man how to respond, but I would suggest that you tell them with scripture show them how they are very misguided. They are diluded by tradition and emotions.

I, myself fought the doctrines of grace for years, I wrote papers and a
"Book" against Calvinism, but eventually there was no way I could ignore scripture any longer.

These people need to hear the truth, for they are not glorifying God.

 

I submit it is you who are misguided. Anyone who studies the bible knows that Calvinism is false. Most Calvinist here are more concerned with the teachings of this flawed man than they are what God actually says. For instance, John 3:16. A reading of this wonderful verse shows that God indeed died for the whole world. Only with some slight of hand twisting does the Calvinists make this verse say what it does not say.

 

During the reformation, there was NO THEOLOGY. What would people know? The Roman Church? Or something else? How about Molinism? What about Universilism? Calvin laid out the scripture at an important time, doctrine means much, and we believe that Calvin was the closest to the mark of what the New Testament and Old taught.

You bring up John 3:16 as usual. Have you never read the Greek? It is clear that "God so loved the world, that the believing ones...................."

Since you wish to say "Anyone who studies the bible", then answer me, if you can, John 6, Romans 9, and Ephesians 1. Remember to pay attention to EVERY WORD, don't discard what you don't like or what does not fall into your tradition. I will await your answers.

And that's just for starters!