can One Be Charasmatic And NOT Be In Word of faith?

[Thomas Helwys]

So you would see the truth of there being a closed canon "garbage?"

That makes sense, as you must hold to ongoing/continuing revelations from God...

So are there modern Apostles/prophets giving forth additional truths to us today?

Are ther those gifts with powers to heal/do miracles SAME as the Apsotles of christ/

just where are a ll these 'super siants?"

Are you a believr in the "latter day rain/maifest sons of god?"

I stand on the firmn foundation of Christ/Bible, how about you?

On TBN. :laugh: :laugh:

 

[DHK]

You do not have a very firm foundation at all because of ...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=84761

In several cases, you have NO idea which set of verses are actually true.
.

Why even post the URL? It was a "thread" started by you in February.
No one posted in it. Yours is the only post; just the OP, only one post, and that is it.
That is how important the rest of the board considered it.

 

[evangelist-7]

Why even post the URL? It was a "thread" started by you in February.
No one posted in it. Yours is the only post; just the OP, only one post, and that is it.
That is how important the rest of the board considered it.

Yeah, kind of reminds me of how the OT prophets were treated, ignored, etc.

Before some of da boys get their rear-ends in a big uproar ... I've never claimed to be any kind of prophet.
Okay? ... Okay.

Believe you me, da boys here have enough problems w/o getting their rear-ends in a big uproar!
.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Yeah, kind of reminds me of how the OT prophets were treated, ignored, etc.

Before some of da boys get their rear-ends in a big uproar ... I've never claimed to be any kind of prophet.
Okay? ... Okay.

Believe you me, da boys here have enough problems w/o getting their rear-ends in a big uproar!
.

I'd rather have my problems than yours.

 

[awaken]

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

If you understand the above passage correctly He did stop speaking in visions, etc.
He speaks through His Son. His Son is revealed to us through His Word.
The author is making a contrast, not redundantly repeating himself.

So you chose to ignore Acts 2:17-19?

And the Son speaks through the Holy Spirit to us! IT is the Holy Spirit that will guide us to all truth!

YOU limit the Father, Son and Holy Ghost! He speaks to His own...and they know His voice!

 

[awaken]

It amazes me the more I read others posting about church history...like that is God's word on the Bible!

Churches have failed in doing what God intended for them to do on the most part! We have as much sin in the churches as we have outside the church! THe churches as a whole have left their first love and denied the power of the HOly Spirit.

If we learn anything from the church history..it is how they have failed God!
God is calling us back to His truth...not mans theology! He wants us to worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Stick to your history books...I am seeking truth in His Word!
What He has re-taught me over the last 6 years...
what I have stepped out in faith and walked in myself....
What I have experienced first hand....NOBODIES UNBELIEF OR ARGUMENTS AGAINST HIS WORD will change it!

As someone has said before..this is getting boring! I wanted to share what I as a Baptist had come across... with fellow Baptist believers! Hoping that I could shed some light on some wrong teachings concerning the manifestation of the HOly Spirit...

So I have planted the seeds...the Holy Spirit will have to illuminate it to you! THat will be my prayer as I leave this board for awhile!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It amazes me the more I read others posting about church history...like that is God's word on the Bible!

Churches have failed in doing what God intended for them to do on the most part! We have as much sin in the churches as we have outside the church! THe churches as a whole have left their first love and denied the power of the HOly Spirit.

If we learn anything from the church history..it is how they have failed God!
God is calling us back to His truth...not mans theology! He wants us to worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Stick to your history books...I am seeking truth in His Word!
What He has re-taught me over the last 6 years...
what I have stepped out in faith and walked in myself....
What I have experienced first hand....NOBODIES UNBELIEF OR ARGUMENTS AGAINST HIS WORD will change it!

As someone has said before..this is getting boring! I wanted to share what I as a Baptist had come across... with fellow Baptist believers! Hoping that I could shed some light on some wrong teachings concerning the manifestation of the HOly Spirit...

So I have planted the seeds...the Holy Spirit will have to illuminate it to you! THat will be my prayer as I leave this board for awhile!

Church history begins with the New Testament. To rightly interpret the NT, you MUST understand its context which includes what the original languages meant, setting, circumstances, etc. You choose to ignore all this, thus you cannot possibly interpret the scriptures correctly. This is the Charismatic error -- to try to interpret the scriptures in a vacuum.

The one who is holding wrong teachings on the HS is you. My prayer is that you will learn to interpret scripture in context. If you do not, you cannot possibly ever know the false from the true.

 

[DHK]

So you chose to ignore Acts 2:17-19?

And the Son speaks through the Holy Spirit to us! IT is the Holy Spirit that will guide us to all truth!

YOU limit the Father, Son and Holy Ghost! He speaks to His own...and they know His voice!

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
--I rather think you ignore Acts 2:17-19.
When did you see these signs? the wonders in the heaven above; the signs in the earth beneath, the blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke??
When and where did they take place? Date please? Historical verification??
Or were you paying attention when you read the Bible here?

"The Son speaks through the Holy Ghost to you."
Tell me how that works. Do you hear an eerie voice? Or is it a booming voice from heaven? What kind of voice does he have?
The Holy Spirit does "speak," but does so through the Word of God (1Cor.2:11-13).

Does the Holy Spirit guide you into ALL truth?
So you have ALL truth now? You claim omniscience; as knowledgeable as God?
That is what you are claiming here--ALL truth.
You don't have all truth; neither will the Holy Spirit ever lead you into all truth. Even in heaven you cannot claim "all" truth. That is reserved only for God.

What is that verse referring to?
Jesus promised his disciples that he would guide them into all truth (not you). This was in reference to the Word of God. When it came time for the apostles to pen the words of Jesus, the Holy Spirit brought to their memories "all the truth" that Jesus had taught them, word for word. That is what the verse means. It is not applicable to you or I. It was only applicable to the apostles; a promise that he would bring to their memories all the truth that he had taught them.

 

[awaken]

Church history begins with the New Testament. To rightly interpret the NT, you MUST understand its context which includes what the original languages meant, setting, circumstances, etc. You choose to ignore all this, thus you cannot possibly interpret the scriptures correctly. This is the Charismatic error -- to try to interpret the scriptures in a vacuum.

The one who is holding wrong teachings on the HS is you. My prayer is that you will learn to interpret scripture in context. If you do not, you cannot possibly ever know the false from the true.

I did study it out in context and in the Greek language! That is when the truth spoke louder than man's teachings!

 

[awaken]

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
--I rather think you ignore Acts 2:17-19.
When did you see these signs? the wonders in the heaven above; the signs in the earth beneath, the blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke??
When and where did they take place? Date please? Historical verification??
Or were you paying attention when you read the Bible here?

"The Son speaks through the Holy Ghost to you."
Tell me how that works. Do you hear an eerie voice? Or is it a booming voice from heaven? What kind of voice does he have?
The Holy Spirit does "speak," but does so through the Word of God (1Cor.2:11-13).

Does the Holy Spirit guide you into ALL truth?
So you have ALL truth now? You claim omniscience; as knowledgeable as God?
That is what you are claiming here--ALL truth.
You don't have all truth; neither will the Holy Spirit ever lead you into all truth. Even in heaven you cannot claim "all" truth. That is reserved only for God.

What is that verse referring to?
Jesus promised his disciples that he would guide them into all truth (not you). This was in reference to the Word of God. When it came time for the apostles to pen the words of Jesus, the Holy Spirit brought to their memories "all the truth" that Jesus had taught them, word for word. That is what the verse means. It is not applicable to you or I. It was only applicable to the apostles; a promise that he would bring to their memories all the truth that he had taught them.

Honestly...You really do not understand that verse, do you? Maybe you can start with verse 16..
"But THIS (What they just witnessed/tongues) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;" ..then he goes on to finish the prophesy! We are in the last days. What they witnessed was the beginning of that prophesy...what you posted will be at the end of that prophesy!

THat last paragraph is sad DHK...I am sorry that His Spirit does not speak to your spirit!

 

[DHK]

Honestly...You really do not understand that verse, do you? Maybe you can start with verse 16..
"But THIS (What they just witnessed/tongues) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;" ..then he goes on to finish the prophesy! We are in the last days. What they witnessed was the beginning of that prophesy...what you posted will be at the end of that prophesy!

THat last paragraph is sad DHK...I am sorry that His Spirit does not speak to your spirit!

God speaks through his Word, and gives understanding.
You have proved you don't have understanding. I will ask you again.
This time give understanding and show that the Holy Spirit gives you understanding:

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
--I rather think you ignore Acts 2:17-19.
When did you see these signs? the wonders in the heaven above; the signs in the earth beneath, the blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke??
When and where did they take place? Date please? Historical verification??
Or were you paying attention when you read the Bible here?

 

[awaken]

God speaks through his Word, and gives understanding.
You have proved you don't have understanding. I will ask you again.
This time give understanding and show that the Holy Spirit gives you understanding:

Those signs will be in the end of the Last days! I shared that with you...you just will not receive it! But the beginning of Joels prophesy was being fulfilled right before their eyes, just as Peter said!

 

[DHK]

Honestly...You really do not understand that verse, do you? Maybe you can start with verse 16..
"But THIS (What they just witnessed/tongues) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;" ..then he goes on to finish the prophesy! We are in the last days. What they witnessed was the beginning of that prophesy...what you posted will be at the end of that prophesy!

Part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled then, and part will be in the future. You agree with that, then?

THat last paragraph is sad DHK...I am sorry that His Spirit does not speak to your spirit!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This is what Thomas Helwys (and myself) constantly remind you of.
You will take a verse like this and interpret it without historical context--as if it is in a vacuum. You cannot do that and still pretend that you are understanding the Bible. The verse is not written to you. Read the context.
He is speaking to his disciples.

When the Holy Spirit will come he will guide the apostles into ALL truth; not you, but the apostles.
You are very arrogant if you think that you have all the truth.
Furthermore the Holy Spirit does not speak of himself; He speaks of what he hears, that is of Christ. But throughout all these thread you magnify the Holy Spirit and not Christ. That is why you keep harping on 1Cor.12:7--magnifying the Holy Spirit instead of Christ. That is not what the Holy Spirit does, and is not his ministry.
He promised he would bring back to the memories of the apostles the words that he had taught them--all the words, all the truth. That is the meaning of the verse.
It is not a verse from which you can make a claim of omniscience.
That is plain absurdity on your part.

 

[awaken]

Part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled then, and part will be in the future. You agree with that, then?

If you would have read my first post concerning Joel...you would know where I stand!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This is what Thomas Helwys (and myself) constantly remind you of.
You will take a verse like this and interpret it without historical context--as if it is in a vacuum. You cannot do that and still pretend that you are understanding the Bible. The verse is not written to you. Read the context.
He is speaking to his disciples.

When the Holy Spirit will come he will guide the apostles into ALL truth; not you, but the apostles.
You are very arrogant if you think that you have all the truth.
Furthermore the Holy Spirit does not speak of himself; He speaks of what he hears, that is of Christ. But throughout all these thread you magnify the Holy Spirit and not Christ. That is why you keep harping on 1Cor.12:7--magnifying the Holy Spirit instead of Christ. That is not what the Holy Spirit does, and is not his ministry.
He promised he would bring back to the memories of the apostles the words that he had taught them--all the words, all the truth. That is the meaning of the verse.
It is not a verse from which you can make a claim of omniscience.
That is plain absurdity on your part.

I thought the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus were one in agreement! How can you worship one more than the other...they are the same!

I just do not ignore the work of the Holy Spirit! Jesus sent him to us when He returned to His father!

Believe me when we approach those LAST OF LAST days, you all are going to want to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

I thought the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus were one in agreement! How can you worship one more than the other...they are the same!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

They are three persons in one God. Do you believe in the trinity?
Jesus was on earth when he spoke these words. The Father was in heaven.
Jesus was speaking to his disciples on earth that after he ascended back into heaven, he would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit to them. One of the purposes would be to bring back to their memory all the words that he had taught them, and to bring them back word by word perfectly.
When the Bible says in 2Tim.3:16,
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
--The word "inspiration" means "God-breathed."
These are the very words of God breathed out by the Holy Spirit, brought to minds of the apostles by the Holy Spirit.
This was a promise to the apostles not to us.

At the baptism of Jesus: Jesus was on the earth being baptized.
The Holy Spirit was descending AS a dove.
The Father's voice could be heard from heaven.
There is only ONE God. Three persons but one God. Each person has a different purpose, different ministry or function if you will.
They are co-existent, co-equal, co-eternal, but one God.

I just do not ignore the work of the Holy Spirit! Jesus sent him to us when He returned to His father!

I do the work of the Holy Spirit and I have seen much fruit. Probably far more than you can imagine.
On the other hand what you describe as the work of the Holy Spirit are mindless and selfish experiences that are not Biblical and are not found in the Bible. They don't edify anyone but yourself, and that only because it gives you a good feeling. But the Bible condemns even that. We don't run our lives by our feelings.

Believe me when we approach those LAST OF LAST days, you all are going to want to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I don't have to wait. I walk in the power of the Spirit now. Every Sunday I stand before the pulpit and preach in the power of His Spirit. Every time I witness I witness with the power of His Spirit. I don't have the power of His Spirit all the time, and neither do you. If I am relaxing and watching a sports game on TV, I don't watch a football game, etc. in "the power of the Spirit," and am not foolish enough to claim to do so.

Study carefully Acts 1:8 and see what the power of the Holy Spirit is connected with.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I did study it out in context and in the Greek language! That is when the truth spoke louder than man's teachings!

If you had done that, you would see, know, and admit the truth of what I told you about the referenced verses. I have no doubt something spoke to you, but it wasn't "the truth" that spoke. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself or scripture.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I hope everyone will seriously consider what I am about to say:

Here in this thread is one of the strongest evidences possible of the error of the Charismatic movement. And that is the elevation of the Holy Spirit above Jesus Christ! This is a false spirituality. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. How does He comfort us? By magnifying Jesus Christ and making Him real and present in our everyday lives, by constantly pointing us to and reminding us of what Jesus did for us and making that a present reality. The ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives is not to elevate us, make us more "spiritual", rain down all kinds of super-spiritual experiences on us, or magnify us or anyone else, especially not some so-called "prophet" or more appropriately "profit". These gifts that many Charismatics use do not magnify Jesus but only the ones who are exhibiting the supposed gifts. Anything -- ANYTHING -- that does not magnify Jesus Christ, but instead some human being, is counterfeit!

The Holy Spirit is not with us and in us to magnify us, but only Jesus. We are not to go chasing around after some experience, or in constant seeking of that which we already have, the baptism of the Holy Spirit which we received at conversion. The Holy Spirit is our comforter and helper, Christ with us and in us. Any teaching that makes the Holy Spirit something other than that is an erroneous teaching.

 

[awaken]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

They are three persons in one God. Do you believe in the trinity?
Jesus was on earth when he spoke these words. The Father was in heaven.
Jesus was speaking to his disciples on earth that after he ascended back into heaven, he would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit to them. One of the purposes would be to bring back to their memory all the words that he had taught them, and to bring them back word by word perfectly.
When the Bible says in 2Tim.3:16,
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
--The word "inspiration" means "God-breathed."
These are the very words of God breathed out by the Holy Spirit, brought to minds of the apostles by the Holy Spirit.
This was a promise to the apostles not to us.

Well, the Holy Spirit speaks to my spirit! He illuminates scriptures! He convicts..etc.
Has God inspired me to write another chapter in the Bible? NO! I have never claimed that. But He guides me from within..

At the baptism of Jesus: Jesus was on the earth being baptized.
The Holy Spirit was descending AS a dove.
The Father's voice could be heard from heaven.
There is only ONE God. Three persons but one God. Each person has a different purpose, different ministry or function if you will.
They are co-existent, co-equal, co-eternal, but one God.

I understand the trinity..What you accused me of was worshipping the Holy Spirit and not God! We worship God through the spirit...The Holy Spirit will always guide us to a better knowledge and love for Jesus! I have never denied that! You are trying to distract from the real issue...that is that most ignore the Holy Spirit altogether.

I do the work of the Holy Spirit and I have seen much fruit. Probably far more than you can imagine.

YOU DO the work of the Holy Spirit? The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit doing the work..we just surrender our body and will to him.

On the other hand what you describe as the work of the Holy Spirit are mindless and selfish experiences that are not Biblical and are not found in the Bible. They don't edify anyone but yourself, and that only because it gives you a good feeling. But the Bible condemns even that. We don't run our lives by our feelings.

This is proof you have no ides about my experience with the Holy Spirit and how it is used in my life. AGAIN you accuse of what you do not know or understand! It is always easier for you to point fingers and get personal than to discuss the Bible out right!

I don't have to wait. I walk in the power of the Spirit now. Every Sunday I stand before the pulpit and preach in the power of His Spirit. Every time I witness I witness with the power of His Spirit. I don't have the power of His Spirit all the time, and neither do you. If I am relaxing and watching a sports game on TV, I don't watch a football game, etc. in "the power of the Spirit," and am not foolish enough to claim to do so.

Boy! you get way out there to prove a point...lets stay within scriptures! I never claim what you are saying here.

Study carefully Acts 1:8 and see what the power of the Holy Spirit is connected with.

The power of the Holy Spirit is connected to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit!

 

[awaken]

If you had done that, you would see, know, and admit the truth of what I told you about the referenced verses. I have no doubt something spoke to you, but it wasn't "the truth" that spoke. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself or scripture.

I agree the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself or scriptures. But to believe as you do...I have to ignore certain scriptures!

 

[awaken]

I hope everyone will seriously consider what I am about to say:

Here in this thread is one of the strongest evidences possible of the error of the Charismatic movement. And that is the elevation of the Holy Spirit above Jesus Christ! This is a false spirituality. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. How does He comfort us? By magnifying Jesus Christ and making Him real and present in our everyday lives, by constantly pointing us to and reminding us of what Jesus did for us and making that a present reality. The ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives is not to elevate us, make us more "spiritual", rain down all kinds of super-spiritual experiences on us, or magnify us or anyone else, especially not some so-called "prophet" or more appropriately "profit". These gifts that many Charismatics use do not magnify Jesus but only the ones who are exhibiting the supposed gifts. Anything -- ANYTHING -- that does not magnify Jesus Christ, but instead some human being, is counterfeit!

The Holy Spirit is not with us and in us to magnify us, but only Jesus. We are not to go chasing around after some experience, or in constant seeking of that which we already have, the baptism of the Holy Spirit which we received at conversion. The Holy Spirit is our comforter and helper, Christ with us and in us. Any teaching that makes the Holy Spirit something other than that is an erroneous teaching.

NOWHERE have I promoted the Holy Spirit above Jesus! Nowhere have I said the HOly Spirit magnifies us!

I have posted before...
The Holy Spirit...
Convicts men of the sin of unbelief
Convicts men that Jesus is the righteousness of God
Convict men that the power of Satan has been broken
Regerates the believer
Baptize the believer
Infill the believer
Empower the believer
Lead the believer
Administer spiritual gifts to the believer

I do not pick and choose what the Holy Spirit does in my life! I do not ignore part of the work of the Holy Spirit! I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit that still even today can manifest Himself as He wills! The problem is that most people are in disbelief and will not be a willing vessel to be used by Him.
He will not manifest where He is not welcome!

Without Jesus...we would not be able to receive the Holy Spirit! HE is the one that sent Him! So we can reject his gift...grieve..etc...even blasephem the HOly Spirit!