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Van

Well-Known Member
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This is a subject that separates many churches and even Christians within the same denomination. One's salvation can be at stake if he/she does not understand this subject well. Along with the subject thread here are four questions to tag with the subject:

1. Does God expect Christians to live a sinless life?
2. Does God expect Christians to live holy?
3. Does Jesus Christ expect a sinner to go on sinning until death?
4. Can a born again person live a sinless life?

John answers these questions with two very different passages. At 1 John 1:6-7. and 3"6 we see that as born anew believers we are sinless, because all our sins, past, present and future have been taken out of the way. However, take a look at 1 John 1:8, which says we all sin. So how do we fit these two ideas into a coherent message?

From God's perspective, even though we think and do sinful stuff, we remain perfect and holy and blameless. However, we as individuals know (especially with the conviction of our indwelt Holy Spirit) that we sin. So we are to strive, to pick up our cross daily, and do our dead level bast to live like Christ - sinlessly.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are we not hearing the scriptures that is quoted? If you call yourself "Christian" which means what? Christ likeness, right? So, why is it hard for you to see and have the mind of Christ wants you to have?
Welcome to BB

While we are certain to be glorified and sinless one day, that day has not come yet. rom7
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God has predestined that all of the elect will be conformed to the Image of the Son...Romans 8;29,20
It is positionally a reality now ...but not yet complete in us until we have glorified spiritual bodies.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am suspicious - or is it just me?

Wondering out loud if NeilOneB been here under a different moniker?

OK maybe I'm paranoid.

HankD
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
TCassidy & evangelist6589,

I am going to try to respond to each of your replies:

Will God’s love continue to save a sinner that continues to sin (to crucify Jesus Christ)? Or Is there a time that God’s love will cease to grant forgiveness to the sinner because the sinner continues to sin against the Holy Spirit? (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If God commanded us to live a perfect life, does it not mean that He expects us to live a sinless life? It would not make any sense to live an imperfect life, would it? A life short from perfection of character will reap eternal death.- (Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 6:4-6 - 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If a person that confesses he/she is a believer and continues to sin they are saying simply; “Jesus what you did on the cross wasn’t enough for me to stop sinning”. It’s a shameful state and impossible for a person that truly accepted Christ’s suffering on the cross! Allow the Holy Spirit to reveal truths that is contrary to the natural man. (1 Cor 2:10-16)

Romans 6:1 – What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

God’s grace forbids us to live in sin. When we sin, we are of the devil. (1 John 3:8)
It seems as if you do not understand these verses you are quoting.
We are not sanctified by our own works being meritorious.
Both salvation and sanctification are by grace alone.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is this a play on words? Sin will not enter into heaven period. So, all believers will have to live, walk that way before being heaven bound. (Caught up).
No....unglorified physical bodies with the motions of sin in them will not enter into heaven;
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is a subject that separates many churches and even Christians within the same denomination. One's salvation can be at stake if he/she does not understand this subject well. Along with the subject thread here are four questions to tag with the subject:

1. Does God expect Christians to live a sinless life?
2. Does God expect Christians to live holy?
3. Does Jesus Christ expect a sinner to go on sinning until death?
4. Can a born again person live a sinless life?
Sure, I live sinless. (Well, for a few hours at a time anyway)
 

Mr. Davis

Active Member
Site Supporter
NeilOneB,

A Christian who is an unreformed addict, has God's Spirit indwelling him.
No matter how many times he gives in (sins), he will be forgiven by confessing his failure
to God. (Matthew 18:21, 22. Luke 17:3,4. 1 John 1:9)

Being a Christian, he may have trouble sensing the Spirit's work in his life. His sense of conviction
is weak, and the Spirit is quenched. A hardened heart needs to become like flesh (Ezekiel). A seared
conscience needs to be healed.

I know a brother, who immersed himself in the Word, prayer, and hymns, and had sobriety for 35 days!
It was a moment-by-moment struggle. Unfortunately, he fell again. It is now 3 years later, and while he
continues the same spiritual disciplines, he is trapped again in the confess-sin-confess cycle.

Please pray for him.
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Will God’s love continue to save a sinner that continues to sin (to crucify Jesus Christ)?

It seems as if you do not understand these verses you are quoting.

It's not just 'any ol' sin' that's in view here, but a specific sin (returning to apostate Judaism) of which a specific people (professing Jewish Christians), of a specific time (the very generation that judged Christ to be worthy of death) were under pressure to do:

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

By 'turning back in their hearts to Egypt', they were in essence agreeing that that generation of Jews were correct in their judgement of Christ, thereby 'crucifying the Son of God afresh'.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment
, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10

Again, this is not just 'any ol' sin', but was a falling away back to apostate Judaism, which if they did there remained only the judgements, soon to come upon that generation, that they were originally told to save themselves from:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18
 

NeilOneB

Member
Oh here we go again - the Pharisaical act of tossing us all into the lake of fire. Oh, not by direct accusation but from a holier-than-thou oblique innuendo.

Isaiah 65:5 ... for I am holier than thou. ...

You are one of many we have had come and go here at the BB Neil.
Welcome to the club.

HankD

HankD,
Sorry, that you misunderstand my comments. But, for the grace of God through Christ dying on the cross and rising again my life would have been living a sinful life. Christ is all! Why, did they leave = "Come and go"?

Jesus has called us into discipleship to learn how to have the character and integrity of God - holiness. As part of the learning process, we will struggle mightily with holiness and fail frequently. However, as we grow in Christ, we will make significant process in sanctification.

So no, God does not "expect" us to live a sinless life, but God does expect us to be sanctified and to gradually be freed from the habits of sin. We live and grow in grace, not by obsessing about failure. If you sin, figure out why it happened, repent of it, and move on in faith. Living a holy life takes practice.

Believers according to the scriptures ought not desire to sin. This is the growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ on a daily. Press forward with the Holy Spirit leading your life.


See previous answer.


I don't know why you switched from "God" to "Jesus Christ" here, but Jesus knows that we are made of dust and from where we have come. He has broken the power of sin in our lives and is showing us a better way. He has no unrealistic expectations about our character. If you sin, figure out why it happened, repent of it, and move on in faith. Living a holy life takes practice.


The reason human beings sin is because of our character and habits. Until our character is completely transformed, we are prone to sin from time to time. In a purely theoretical sense, we are free from the power of sin, so all sin is voluntary. The practical reality is that we are not yet who we should be, so sin is always lurking at the door. If you sin, figure out why it happened, repent of it, and move on in faith. Living a holy life takes practice.

However, a committed and experienced disciple of Christ can go a lot longer without sin that most people expect.
 

NeilOneB

Member
NeilOneB,

A Christian who is an unreformed addict, has God's Spirit indwelling him.
No matter how many times he gives in (sins), he will be forgiven by confessing his failure
to God. (Matthew 18:21, 22. Luke 17:3,4. 1 John 1:9)

Being a Christian, he may have trouble sensing the Spirit's work in his life. His sense of conviction
is weak, and the Spirit is quenched. A hardened heart needs to become like flesh (Ezekiel). A seared
conscience needs to be healed.

I know a brother, who immersed himself in the Word, prayer, and hymns, and had sobriety for 35 days!
It was a moment-by-moment struggle. Unfortunately, he fell again. It is now 3 years later, and while he
continues the same spiritual disciplines, he is trapped again in the confess-sin-confess cycle.

Please pray for him.

This is the battle as believers we have in this life. We have to surrender our life unto the Lord in that our ways, thoughts have to be given to the Lord. I truly believe that a whole heart means that. All to Jesus I surrender, all to him I freely give. We have to forsake the things of this world to be truly free. So, let that brother know you care and ask him to "surrender all". Once a person has repented of their sins; which means "turned away" from it and lives a life unto the Lord. I will not be brought under the power of that thing no more. The power (Holy Spirit) that lives within the believer is greater now and he will be able to overcome the temptation.
 

NeilOneB

Member
Welcome to BB

While we are certain to be glorified and sinless one day, that day has not come yet. rom7
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God has predestined that all of the elect will be conformed to the Image of the Son...Romans 8;29,20
It is positionally a reality now ...but not yet complete in us until we have glorified spiritual bodies.

I see your point. Wasn't Jesus sent here to be an example for us to walk? Didn't he leave us the comforter which is the Holy Spirit that resides within us. It is the guidance and instructions of the Holy Spirit that keeps us from falling. Its the Christ-in us that keeps us and live through us. So, let us walk in the Spirit.
 

NeilOneB

Member
It seems as if you do not understand these verses you are quoting.
We are not sanctified by our own works being meritorious.
Both salvation and sanctification are by grace alone.

Its by his grace alone that we are able to even be called "Christians". So, walk in it my brother!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I answered the question biblically, I am holy and blameless and perfect in the eyes of God, but many of my thoughts and actions, even though I amt in Christ's propitiatory shelter, we would view as sinful. Read 1 John carefully!
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I answered the question biblically, I am holy and blameless and perfect in the eyes of God, but many of my thoughts and actions, even though I amt in Christ's propitiatory shelter, we would view as sinful. Read 1 John carefully!
If you are looking at 1 John for "propitiatory shelter" it isn't there.

In fact there is no such thing as "propitiatory shelter" found in Scriptures.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you are looking at 1 John for "propitiatory shelter" it isn't there.
In fact there is no such thing as "propitiatory shelter" found in Scriptures.

Pay no attention to this false claim. When a person is transferred into Christ, they are transferred into Christ's propitiatory shelter.
 

NeilOneB

Member
Neil you started this with an O/P asking us a question which you yourself refuse to answer.

Do you live a sinless life?

HankD

HankD,

With the help of the Holy Spirit yes that is the goal everyday.
1Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

"Ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God".

If you are sanctified, justified in Jesus and by the Holy Spirit I know its there for all believers! No, sinner will make it in heaven. I am saved by grace and a Kings kid!

HankD are you a righteous man?
 
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