Can predestination and free will both exist?

I have made my case.

See the following three studies:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2063.pdf
http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2064.pdf
http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2065.pdf

One of the most difficult aspects of dealing with these kinds of issues is that people want one sentence answers to complex questions and they are not even willing to read the indepth answers it has taken hundreds of hours of study to provide. Then, even if they read them, they just skim through without really reading. That has always been the problem with these discussion/debate boards.

 

Predestination does not refer to lost people being predestined to be saved. Predestiniation refers saved people being predestined to glorification.

This is what most Baptists believe the text teaches, because that is PLAINLY what the text teaches.

See the following three studies:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2063.pdf
http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2064.pdf
http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2065.pdf

I certainly am a Baptist.

 

That is, you don't know enough to refute him -- just enough to have doubts. Do you see that as Satan's usual work?

Here's the diffference: God's foreknowledge regards who will CHOOSE Jesus. God THEN elects them -- predestinates them -- to His/God's purposes. Put another way, God knows who will be JUSTIFIED by Him and it is them that He comes to abide in --- SANCTIFIES with the Holy Spirit indwelling

When you want to know what the gospel is that EVERYONE has a chance to respond to, go to passages like Acts 2:38-40 or 1Cor 15:1-4. Don't look to the "exceptions" you seem enamored with.

This is a parable, rpniman. Those who are invited are OT Israel -- those who are "chosen" as "bride" are the church.

Both foreknowledge and predestination DO come before creation. That is where Calvies get confused to begin with.

Here's what it boils down to --- you are saved eternally by choosing as your Savior whereby God justifies you in Him. This was the part that was foreknown by God.

You are saved in this life daily unto PURPOSE by trusting in Christ as Lord. This is the part that God predestines for you and then, by His Spirit, leads you in His way.

skypair

 

Scripture that it means "before the 1st day"?

 

omnitemporalness encompasses atemporalness...therefore your theory holds no water.

 

I like the paper analogy better...as your basketball analogy makes no sense

I agree that God can never fully be shown, and my analogy was not intended to do that, but that works for me.

 

these debates will never end. For right now I consider myself a high Calvinist. But for those of you that do not like the rigidness of both Calvinism and Arminianism, I think a study on Molinism would be beneficial.

 

Very good. And your still an Arminian?

 

Can predestination and free will both exist?

Obviously the answer to question in the thread title is "Yes!"

Why, on the Baptist Board, alone, they are both 'cussed' and 'discussed' back and forth, almost every day. :thumbs:

:laugh:

Ed

 

Regardless of one's view of foreknowledge, the result of each view is that a fixed number have been elected by God to salvation.

If God bases election on foreknowing who will believe for salvation, then once He chooses, no one else will have a chance for salvation. Since God is omniscient, he will know all those who will choose him, and will know that no one else will do so.

If God elects, and that is the basis of foreknowledge (he knows because he decided it would be that way), the result is still the same. He has chosen a fixed number, and no one else will be saved.

So all talk about everyone having a "chance" to be saved is meaningless.

Once God elects, no one else will have a "chance' to be saved.

All talk of "convincing" people to trust Christ is meaningless. The elect will not have to be convinced. Our job as believers is to present the gospel to all, and leave the results to God.

 

...I've never been an arminian

 

FTR, and by my count, in 32 posts in this thread, exactly 15 Scripture verses are given as references, and a couple of partial quotes of verses, beyond just two or three, or so, "buzz-words' are to be found among all 32 posts.

That is an average of roughly one half of a verse per post, by all.

It does therefore appear, to this old country-boy, at least, that the overall interest here is "What does (a given) 'theology' say?", more so than "What does Scripture say?", frankly.

Ed

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm going to save that one. I may put it in my book..."Yes he really said that"

how can all of time cover no time? The key is TIME. One has it..one does not.

 

Be sure you add this to your book...

That's rich....one does not deal with time. :laugh: :laugh: (I had to delete 2 of your smileys so mine would fit)

I would suggest some reading by William Lane Craig.

 

Settled In Eternity

See the following post:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 66.pdf

 

1. In our debates we might end up on either side of this issue: Whether predestination and human responsibility can coexist?

2. Well, according to Scripture, they do coexist (Lk 21:21; Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28).

 

But , to remind folks -- free will is not equivalent to human responsibility .

 

I was going to say the same thing but I'm not certain what you mean when you say that. I suppose this could mean that we have free will but no responsibility. I doubt that this is what you mean. Or that we have responsibility but no free will. Or maybe that we have both in different measures. Could you explain?

 

Thanks, Rippon.

IMO, the idea of free will is only theoretical, so that is why I elected to say human responsibility.