Can predestination and free will both exist?

[reformedbeliever]

Genuinely seeking truth, does not mean they would believe the truth if it contradicted what they were looking for, or the some basic paramiters that would estalbish what they wanted to hear. (ie. Jews of Christ's time) They COULD have believed but they did not because the Jesus presented them was not the truth they most wanted to receive.

IF they were 'genuinely' seeking truth do you believe God would forsake them when He knew they would truly recieve Him and His truth?

Seems He knew what it would take for these to repent, and He didn't do the works for them to be able to.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

 

[bound]

Let me ask you --- if someone told you that they were "hand-picked" by God to be saved and proclaim His ONLY truth, what would be your response??

Is that what you are telling me? Are you the Voice of our Lord? Let me say that although I am confindent in the Promises of our Lord for our Salvation I don't assert that such promises given me clarity to the Will of God.

If you have been reading my posts for the past 3 years, they are NOT "limited references." I merely testify to you of the one reference that should make it abundantly clear that God does not operate in the manner that you witness to.

Friend, I don't have the time to pour over everything which you have written on this forum. I'm going to have to exercise judgment with the responses as they are given and I am uncomfortable with what you have offer in this thread so far.

Does that mean that I am ready to slander you as an Anti-christ? Of course not. May it never be. I am confident that most if not all the individuals on this forum are dutiful servants of God doing their best to please God and further mastery of His Will. That said I recognize that their exist differences and disagreements. I take great care in having serious, thoughtful dialogue with those whom I find disagreement, not in order to demonize them, but to understand them and maybe I just might learn something from them. Maybe you might wish to attempt to do the same?

If by "normative" you mean "Calvinist," I beg to disagree. Calvinism would be like someone coming our of Aristotle's "cave" (Catholicism) and seeing light for the first time --- one hardly knows how to grasp the totality of the truth! Calvinism was a good INTERIM reaction. It by no means established what scripture really says!

Friend, I am a Classic Arminian. I don't believe that Christianity was founded by the Reformation. Perhaps, that is what Harnack believed by I for one do not.

Let's "break it down" before jumping to conclusions, shall we? Peter spake the words -- the Holy Ghost fell on those who heard the words. Does that say that the Holy Ghost "indwelled," regenerated, rebirthed, etc. them? Not unless you read Calvinism into it.

As I've already told you I'm a Classic Arminian but if that is too Calvinist for you I do understand but with regard to your point I would say that as text illustrate the imputing of the Holy Ghost onto and into the persons of Cornelius' Household.

Then, of course, you leave out that Cornelius "already knew" (10:37) of "peace by Jesus: (He is Lord of all)..." And those with Peter were astonished that on Cornelius and his house, Gentiles, the Holy Ghost had already been poured out.

Friend, Acts 2:38 could be interpreted as a general overview but to suggest that it is a rigid order for salvation is contradictory to other passages which suggest the contrary.

Why had the Spirit been poured out? Because they repented and beleived (Acts 2:38). Then Peter says, "Be baptized!"

Again, instead of trying to use Acts 2:38 to suggest something which was never intended to twist our understanding of Cornelius' Conversion. Peter clearly sees regeneration as a prerequisite for 'water' in Acts 10:47.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? ~ Acts 10:47

My friend -- you are taking an account of salvation and making it out to be the gospel!! This is the EXACT error that Calvinism makes!! Rather than take the gospel and proclaim it, they take SYNOPSES of salvation experiences and make them out to be the gospel. It would be like me telling you about an auto accident with me as a witness instead of taking the word of the person actually involved. You still have no "first hand" knowledge of how it happened, do you?

Friend you are speaking about the word of God given to us for the betterment of our souls. I don't believe any serious Systematic Study of Scripture is harmful if the hermeneutic is proper.

I DID notice!! PRE-Baptism, as you call it, is NOT regeneration!! All it is is HEARING the word -- the GENERAL calling! Do we ever hear how many of THEM were saved? No. They were WITNESSES but it is never established that they themselves were converted.

Friend, when the Holy Ghost is poured regeneration is at hand.

Bound -- I appreciate your reactions. But notice the GOSPEL -- Acts 10:35-43, especially 43 -- BELIEVE, RECEIVE!!! Stop making this about "Oh, these are the 'chosen ones' who are regenerated so that only they come to faith." That is nowhere in this account.

I'm the one who has argued preventing Grace for years here. I'm a Classic Arminian. I don't believe limited atonement....

 

[Allan]

It is the Holy Spirit in me that causes me to be obedient. It is my sinful nature that causes me to be disobedient.

again... What made the difference for you to obey Christ once you WERE ALREADY a Christian and what made the difference when you were disobedient?

If the Holy Spirit made the difference for you to obey, then is your sin nature greater that it can overcome Him to cause you to sin?

 

[Allan]

You have misunderstood me. I said people come to Christ in humility, but some remain prideful (they don't come to Christ). I was responding to another poster who was saying that the humble come to Christ. I was just asking how one overcomes being prideful.

Hope that clears it up.

Here is a better question for you Amy.

Can the unsaved be humble at all since they are all prideful?

If the answer is yes, then what makes the unsaved person humble and no longer prideful?

 

[Allan]

Seems He knew what it would take for these to repent, and He didn't do the works for them to be able to.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Are you giving me easy ones on purpose Reformed? :smilewinkgrin:

This is not about them 'genuinely' seeking truth. They HAD the truth and rejected it. Jesus didn't say if they would have known the truth they would have repented. It is speaking about the miracles Christ did (mighty works) as authentication of who He was. IOW- Even those who rejected the truth then, If they had SEEN what you SEE (mighty works) they would have believed who I am and repented.

First off, both of the cities Jesus speaks of DID in fact have the truth, but they rejected it. They were not without truth Reformed. It is speaking to judgment of those at the time of Christ who will reject EVEN seeing those mighty things.
IOW - They would have believed He was the Christ if they were there BASED UPON His might works. But the truth God gave them to know and accept was not what they wanted, just as CHrist to Tyre and Sidom was not what they wanted. Thus those whom God gives or reveals more to will be held more to a greater accountablity than those who were not; but both will be held accountable to what they received from God.

But here is the kicker - Jesus Himself declares "they WOULD have repented" meaning they had the ability to repent/believe but chose not to.

Jesus Himself declares both mans ability AND responsiblity right there!

Mat 11:20 ¶ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Why would Jesus get on to them if He knows no man can repent unless God make him?

 

[Frogman]

I have to disagree Allan. We are involved in a company that places exchange students in people's homes. I have exchange students who attend our church regularly. They are of a manifold of beliefs and religions. I know of more than one exchange student, who is genuinely seeking truth about God. They come from families who are genuinely seeking truth. They have loved ones who were seeking truth, who have passed from this life. They never got a chance to hear about Jesus. What about them?

Amen.

If we can note skypair's post, he states Biblically:

Rom 5:1-2 says otherwise. Rom 5:1-2 says that we cannot even have "God's grace wherein we stand" until we have first "believe on Him that raised up Jesus ... and was raised again for our JUSTIFICATION." Rom 4:24-25.

[italics mine for emphasis]

Of which Cornelius is an example as well as reformedbeliever's experience with exchange students is a like example.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[skypair]

Friend, Acts 2:38 could be interpreted as a general overview but to suggest that it is a rigid order for salvation is contradictory to other passages which suggest the contrary.

Such as? Try 1Cor 15:1-4. Or Rom 10:8-10, 13.

Again, instead of trying to use Acts 2:38 to suggest something which was never intended to twist our understanding of Cornelius' Conversion. Peter clearly sees regeneration as a prerequisite for 'water' in Acts 10:47.

Yup.

I'm the one who has argued preventing Grace for years here. I'm a Classic Arminian. I don't believe limited atonement....

You are a different "animal", bound. :laugh:

skypair

 

[Allan]

Amen.

If we can note skypair's post, he states Biblically:
[italics mine for emphasis]

Of which Cornelius is an example as well as reformedbeliever's experience with exchange students is a like example.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

What in the world are you talking about?? We were not talking about JUSTIFICATION.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Are you giving me easy ones on purpose Reformed? :smilewinkgrin:

This is not about them 'genuinely' seeking truth. They HAD the truth and rejected it. Jesus didn't say if they would have known the truth they would have repented. It is speaking about the miracles Christ did (mighty works) as authentication of who He was. IOW- Even those who rejected the truth then, If they had SEEN what you SEE (mighty works) they would have believed who I am and repented.

First off, both of the cities Jesus speaks of DID in fact have the truth, but they rejected it. They were not without truth Reformed. It is speaking to judgment of those at the time of Christ who will reject EVEN seeing those mighty things.
IOW - They would have believed He was the Christ if they were there BASED UPON His might works. But the truth God gave them to know and accept was not what they wanted, just as CHrist to Tyre and Sidom was not what they wanted. Thus those whom God gives or reveals more to will be held more to a greater accountablity than those who were not; but both will be held accountable to what they received from God.

But here is the kicker - Jesus Himself declares "they WOULD have repented" meaning they had the ability to repent/believe but chose not to.

Jesus Himself declares both mans ability AND responsiblity right there!


Why would Jesus get on to them if He knows no man can repent unless God make him?

God always tells men what they should do. He would not be just if he didn't.
You have proven my point Allan. You said;

IF they were 'genuinely' seeking truth do you believe God would forsake them when He knew they would truly recieve Him and His truth?

He knew what it would take for them to truly recieve Him, and didn't provide the works that it would take. You asked the question, I answered with scripture. Why not allow the plain meaning to say what it says?

 

[Frogman]

What in the world are you talking about?? We were not talking about JUSTIFICATION.

I never mentioned justification.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[Allan]

You have proven my point Allan. You said;

He knew what it would take for them to truly recieve Him, and didn't provide the works that it would take. You asked the question, I answered with scripture. Why not allow the plain meaning to say what it says?

Again, Not True in the least, at least as I understand it.

The example was illistrative of the Jews who kept seeking after a sign and that even these two cities judged of God, if THEY would have seen 'His works' they would repented. They woud have done so becasue they would have accepted these 'mighty works' as signs, but which the Jews had rejected and or dismissed them as such and sought more and grandious signs.

Let me put this into perspective if I can Reformed; The same question can be turned on the believer same as for the unbeliever, such as -
IF Jesus would have come to you in your early teens and did all that He did there, would you have repented and believed. (I know I would have) So why did God wait so long if you would have done it then? Answer: Because God isn't trying to manipulate anyone into belief, THAT is why.

Anyway, it is not about God not giving all they needed to repent because the fact of the matter is that is exactly what He did for them in or during THIER time. It is about the Jewish people of Jesus time not even acknowledging those things the condemned would have seen for what it was. The contrast Christ gave was to reveale the depth of their unbelief.

However, I will have some fun if I may.
I will concede your view of the above , if you will concede my view that all unregenerate men have the ability to repent/believe as says our Lord in the same passage. He said "..they would have repented'. And as you said:

Why not allow the plain meaning to say what it says?

I am tired and can't think straight at the moment. I worked last night and didn't get much sleep the night before. So, I'm off here for a bit- maybe even a couple of days... I think I'm getting burnt out. But you know me.. I'm like a zit.. I pop up where you least expect me and become a huge annoyance :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Allan]

I never mentioned justification.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

That was the crux of Sky's argument and you were quoting him in support of whatever you were supporting

Amen.

If we can note skypair's post, he states Biblically:

Rom 5:1-2 says otherwise. Rom 5:1-2 says that we cannot even have "God's grace wherein we stand" until we have first "believe on Him that raised up Jesus ... and was raised again for our JUSTIFICATION." Rom 4:24-25.

[italics mine for emphasis]...

Since Justification was Sky argument it would be assumed that was what you were refering to for emphasis of your point.

However, it still makes no matter since I don't understand what you are Amening to.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Again, Not True in the least, at least as I understand it.

The example was illistrative of the Jews who kept seeking after a sign and that even these two cities judged of God, if THEY would have seen 'His works' they would repented. They woud have done so becasue they would have accepted these 'mighty works' as signs, but which the Jews had rejected and or dismissed them as such and sought more and grandious signs.

Let me put this into perspective if I can Reformed; The same question can be turned on the believer same as for the unbeliever, such as -
IF Jesus would have come to you in your early teens and did all that He did there, would you have repented and believed. (I know I would have) So why did God wait so long if you would have done it then? Answer: Because God isn't trying to manipulate anyone into belief, THAT is why.

Anyway, it is not about God not giving all they needed to repent for that is exactly what He did for them in their time. It is about the Jewish people of Jesus time not even acknowledging those things the condemned would have seen for what it was. The contrast Christ gave was to revealed the depth of their unbelief.

However, I will have some fun if I may.
I will concede your view of the above , if you will concede my view that all unregenerate men have the ability to repent/believe as says our Lord in the same passage. He said "..they would have repented'. Nothing here about God's drawing, And as you said:


I am tired and can't think straight at the moment. I worked last night and didn't get much sleep the night before. So, I'm off here for a bit- maybe even a couple of days... I think I'm getting burnt out. But you know me.. I'm like a zit.. I pop up where you least expect me and become a huge annoyance :smilewinkgrin:

After reading your reply to Frogman.... it is aparent that you do not understand what I am saying either Allan. I don't mean that as if you can't understand. What I am saying is that maybe we are talking past each other.

My whole point is to answer your question.......

IF they were 'genuinely' seeking truth do you believe God would forsake them when He knew they would truly recieve Him and His truth?

Didn't He say that He knew that they would have repented if He had done the signs the others saw? Yes. Aparently He didn't want to do the signs necessary for them to repent. Do you think God could not have done the signs that would have been necessary for them to believe?

 

[Allan]

After reading your reply to Frogman.... it is aparent that you do not understand what I am saying either Allan. I don't mean that as if you can't understand. What I am saying is that maybe we are talking past each other.

Could be, like I said I am quite tired but still wanted to engage some today. Maybe it was a bad idea.

My whole point is to answer your question.......

IF they were 'genuinely' seeking truth do you believe God would forsake them when He knew they would truly recieve Him and His truth?

Remember the crux of the sentence is 'genuinely'.

Didn't He say that He knew that they would have repented if He had done the signs the others saw? Yes. Aparently He didn't want to do the signs necessary for them to repent. Do you think God could not have done the signs that would have been necessary for them to believe?

I my opinion you are going beyond the texts meaning Reformed. He didn't need to do any of that anymore than he needed to it for others before or after. Christ's earthly appearance in humanity was a special and singular event that is distinctly different for all other times and ages past or future (till His kingdom come).

Remember that it is not just about any ol' signs being done and they would repent, but those specifically those of Christ BY Christ. The same can be said today, but at the same time the same can be said of BELIEVERS who would have repented SOONER if they had seen what Christ did them.

They were cities in ages past but they were not left alone by God to be unrepentant. God DID deal with them as He did with EVERYONE else at or during THEIR OWN TIME. They were resposible for the truth they had. His usage of them was illistrative in his prophet judgment against them, as I said:

...it is not about God not giving all they needed to repent for that is exactly what He did for them in their time. This is about the Jewish people of Jesus time not even acknowledging those things the condemned would have seen for what it was. The contrast Christ gave was to revealed the depth of their unbelief.

Now - will you concede that in accordance with the teaching of Christ here - the unregenerate can repent/believe

 

[Allan]

Seriously RB, good night.

I dozed off twice writting my last post.

Till we meet again brother, here or there.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Now - will you concede that in accordance with the teaching of Christ here - the unregenerate can repent/believe

Absolutely and most assuredly......................... NOT.

I think you know that I believe that no one can repent and believe unless they are first born again of God. I do not believe that anyone (no matter how genuine they are) can do so, without the Holy Spirit removing the scales from their eyes. This is a monergistic action of God. I am absolutely not synergist.

I love you anyway though brother. :jesus:

 

[MB]

Just a couple of questions.

Being chosen in Him doesn't gaurantee our Salvation but only makes it availible We are predestined.

Huh?

The whole world is who Christ died for. Our choosing was in this decision made by God.
Paul wrote,
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How are we chosen in Christ? we are chosen in Him because of His death and ressurection for the sins of the world. He had to die for the whole world other wise His will is ignored
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In order for this above to be possible all men had to be chosen in Christ.
This verse below proves we have all been predestinated.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

If it's God's will all men be saved then all Gentiles have been predestinated to the adoption.
Why aren't all men saved?
Because all men do not come to the light some do and those who do, do not rebel. The only freewill choice we have is rebellion. If we do not rebel we will come to the light. This means we will listen to the gospel which is the light. If we but listen we will be convinced, convicted and believe. Yet it isn't mans belief that saves the man. It is the faith of Jesus Christ that saves. We only believe that we might be saved.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Salvation is of God every bit of it because with out the Spirit convincing us and convicting us we have nothing.

How does the prideful person become humble?

The opposite of Humble is being prideful. There is no inbetween you are either prideful or you are humble. Even the lowest of sinners can be humble because humility is not a commandment.

The unsaved person has no desire for God and is self-centered, not in need of God in his mind. How does he overcome this?

This is true however it isn't impossible for the Holy Spirit. When man is drawn or called even the response of man is dependant on the Spirit. Man has only one choice and that is to rebel. If the man doesn't rebel and comes to the light the man will listen and the man will be convinced, convicted and because of these receive Salvation.
MB

 

[bound]

Such as? Try 1Cor 15:1-4. Or Rom 10:8-10, 13.

Yup.

You are a different "animal", bound. :laugh:

skypair

Sorry friend but I'm not following your point?

What are you suggest with these passages?

Thank you.

 

[scotthines]

God predestined according to Gods free will. So yes they can both exist.

 

[JustChristian]

Both are two forks on the same road of a systematic study of the Scriptures. They are not separate from the Scriptures nor are the Scriptures separate from Theology. One is the Systematic Study of the other. To discard one is to be in ignorance of what those who came before us through faithful and prayerful labor passed down to us for our own good. It was for our own benefit that such men labored their whole lives in dutiful service to the mastery of God's Word. It is to our betterment and to their honor that we ponder faithfully and prayerfully what has been generously given. With God's help we shall continue humily and with all convinction that good work to the Salvation of souls.

I disagree with your statement that a system of theology is not separate from the Bible. The Bible is the word of God. Theology is the interpretation of man. Theology is never perfect and some is simply heresy.


Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: