Can Preterists Even BEGIN To Make Their Case?

[robycop3]

Really so 2000 years the later the Jews are still being punished?

The Jews have had the Gospel available to them since Jesus first gave it. Most Jews have chosen of their own free will to reject it.

And I don't see how any Christian can't believe the nazi holocaust was anything but punishment against the Jews.

Or more fittingly, it was that current generation, you know the one that house was left desolate, the generation Jesus predicted the judgment on, the generation that actually rejected Jesus and put him to death?

And that geberation received the "days of vengeance" punishment. The individuals responsible for Jesus' murder have been receiving punishment ever since their deaths. And, since most jews were in favor of jesus' murder, and their successive generations have been so inclined, their earthly punishment for that began in 135-136 AD, continuing thru the holocaust. While I don't doubt some Jews caught in the holocaust came to Jesus, they were killed anyway. However, their current state is far-better than those who died still rejecting Jesus.

Please show me how current generation does not work?

For the umpteenth time, the prophesied eschatological events did NOT then occur, nor have they YET occurred!

The only reason you need "race" to work is because you do not believe Matthew 24 to be something other than future.

Matt. 24:4-14 are going on now, while Verses 15-29 are still future. You CANNOT prove differently, even to yourself, let alone anyone else.

 

[Covenanter]

Again you perceive “generation” as a period of time in which a certain age group is born and dies.

Yet, the word “generation” can also just as authoritatively be race, or family including decendents, dependents, and the deposited (those already deposited in the earth).

I have several times given a link to Lewis Carroll's discourse on liguistics. Let's apply what he wrote:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'​

How did Matthew introduce the word "generation" ?

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

With Strong's numbers:
at 1:17 - So G3767 all G3956 the generations G1074 from G575 Abraham G11 to G2193 David G1138 are fourteen G1180 generations; G1074 and G2532 from G575 David G1138 until G2193 the carrying away G3350 into Babylon G897 are fourteen G1180 generations; G1074 and G2532 from G575 the carrying away G3350 into Babylon G897 unto G2193 Christ G5547 are fourteen G1180 generations. G1074​

To suggest that "generation" means the whole Jewish race is an absolute violation of the way Jesus uses the word as recorded by Matthew.

But you could understand as race in the sense that the Jewish race for all spiritual purposes ended in AD 70 as the centre of the God-given religion was utterly destroyed. The Kingdom of God centred on the Lord Jesus Christ no longer had a rival setup in Jerusalem & the temple.

As Jesus prophesied:

Mat 21:43 - “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.​

Not a gentile nation but the holy nation comprising Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.

And Peter, quoting Moses warned & proclaimed:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”​

And 5,000 Jews responded. They formed the prophesied holy nation. Exodus 19, 1 Peter 2.

 

[TCassidy]

They still display this deplorable lack of understanding regarding the meaning of γενεα. They fail to have sufficient knowledge of Greek words and their cognates. They just can't seem to get their heads around the fact that γενεα means "birth" or "to be born" and refers to all who were born descendants of a person, such as the Jews being descended from Abraham, and all mankind being descended from Adam and Noah.

But it doesn't do any good to show them from the bible because they reject what the bible says in favor of their vacuous theory.

One of the most well known verses in the New Testament proves how little they know, but they ignore it too.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

But show them that "born" is translated from a cognate of γενεα (γεννηθη) and they just ignore it. Or they will insist John 3:3 should be translated “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is generation anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

And even worse, they refuse to accept the testimony of every English dictionary's definition of "generation." They refuse to note that "generation" can mean bearing, formation, origination, procreation, propagation, reproduction, bringing forth, multiplying and many others which have nothing at all to do with "everybody alive at the same time."

 

[TCassidy]

I did not mention Wikipedia

You purported to be referring to John's refusal to accept Wikipedia as an authoritative source. Shame on you!

 

[TCassidy]

Lewis Carroll's discourse on liguistics.

Absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. And this repeat of irrelevancy proves beyond doubt Covenanter is sadly ignorant of the issue and is incapable of arguing his position.

 

[TCassidy]

The sign of Jonah (three days and three nights) was symbolic of Christ's three days and three nights in the tomb. Fulfilled symbolically.

Not at the time the passage was spoken. It was yet future.

 

[TCassidy]

We who have been teachers try to come up with ways to “get through to a person” and are often successful.

My wife (Ed.D.) and I have a friend who has a Ph.D. in Brain Based Education. Carol is an internationally known professor, author, and lecturer on learning, and learning disabilities. (Former Superintendent of Schools, New York.)

She explains that many subjects are not logic or reason based, but rather are emotion based. She uses both politics and religion as examples. It does no good to argue logic or reason in a political argument for the person rejects those arguments because his politics are emotionally based (Won't someone think of the children?!)

The same is true of religious arguments. Once a person finds he cannot defend his religion using reason and logic, IE with straight forward appeal to the scriptures as final authority, he/she adopts an emotional basis to cling to his religious beliefs. So, the facts of scripture mean nothing to him for he just ignores them. He says "that does not mean what it says. You have to spiritualize that." Then goes off on a flight of fancy with no reason or logic behind it "spiritualizing" every passage from the bible that disproves his false theory.

Or they try to introduce completely irrelevant stuff that has no bearing on the issue but can't see that because they are blinded by their emotional attachment to their vacuous argument.

 

[TCassidy]

The sign of Jonah (three days and three nights) was symbolic of Christ's three days and three nights in the tomb. Fulfilled symbolically.

You see what is happening, David? Covenanter, below, fails to understand your clear and correct observation that the symbol of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, which was Jonah's three days and three nights in the great sea monster was symbolic.

No , David - fulfilled literally - precisely as Jesus stated:

Zoooommmmm. Right over your head. Jonah's encounter with the great sea monster was SYMBOLIC of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, just as David said.

 

[agedman]

You see what is happening, David? Covenanter, below, fails to understand your clear and correct observation that the symbol of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, which was Jonah's three days and three nights in the great sea monster was symbolic.

Zoooommmmm. Right over your head. Jonah's encounter with the great sea monster was SYMBOLIC of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, just as David said.

I think I am at fault.

When I read David’s post, I took it as he was saying Christ’s resurrection was symbolic not that Jonah symbolized Christ.

That response may have been read by Covenanter and my response threw the discussion.

My apologies, I should have been more careful

 

[David Kent]

You see what is happening, David? Covenanter, below, fails to understand your clear and correct observation that the symbol of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, which was Jonah's three days and three nights in the great sea monster was symbolic.

Zoooommmmm. Right over your head. Jonah's encounter with the great sea monster was SYMBOLIC of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, just as David said.

We can't all be right all the time. Ian and I are friends, but we disagree on some things and agree on others,

Earlier on you said "avoid David Cloud". If I avoided everyone I disagreed with, I wouldn't read anyone. I have contacted Cloud in the past and didn't get anywhere.

I can't find it now, but Cloud said scripture said Israel would one day be back in Egypt and would be returned without ransom. And that there would be a Jewish altar in Egypt. He puts that into the future. However Josephus says these were both fulfilled during the reign of the Ptolomies.

 

[robycop3]

I have several times given a link to Lewis Carroll's discourse on liguistics. Let's apply what he wrote:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'​

How did Matthew introduce the word "generation" ?

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

With Strong's numbers:
at 1:17 - So G3767 all G3956 the generations G1074 from G575 Abraham G11 to G2193 David G1138 are fourteen G1180 generations; G1074 and G2532 from G575 David G1138 until G2193 the carrying away G3350 into Babylon G897 are fourteen G1180 generations; G1074 and G2532 from G575 the carrying away G3350 into Babylon G897 unto G2193 Christ G5547 are fourteen G1180 generations. G1074​

To suggest that "generation" means the whole Jewish race is an absolute violation of the way Jesus uses the word as recorded by Matthew.

But you could understand as race in the sense that the Jewish race for all spiritual purposes ended in AD 70 as the centre of the God-given religion was utterly destroyed. The Kingdom of God centred on the Lord Jesus Christ no longer had a rival setup in Jerusalem & the temple.

As Jesus prophesied:

Mat 21:43 - “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.​

Not a gentile nation but the holy nation comprising Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.

And Peter, quoting Moses warned & proclaimed:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”​

And 5,000 Jews responded. They formed the prophesied holy nation. Exodus 19, 1 Peter 2.

Once again, a bunny trail. The FACT that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred renders your whole post moot.

 

[prophecy70]

Absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. And this repeat of irrelevancy proves beyond doubt Covenanter is sadly ignorant of the issue and is incapable of arguing his position.

Do you always resort to personal attacks when someone doesn't agree with you?

 

[robycop3]

We can't all be right all the time. Ian and I are friends, but we disagree on some things and agree on others,

Earlier on you said "avoid David Cloud". If I avoided everyone I disagreed with, I wouldn't read anyone. I have contacted Cloud in the past and didn't get anywhere.

I can't find it now, but Cloud said scripture said Israel would one day be back in Egypt and would be returned without ransom. And that there would be a Jewish altar in Egypt. He puts that into the future. However Josephus says these were both fulfilled during the reign of the Ptolomies.

Evidence of a Jewish settlement has been found on Elephantine Island, in the Nile, near the city of Aswan in Egypt, near its southern border. These jews were mercenaries in the employ of persia, whose job was to guard Egypt against invaders, mostly Nubians, who'd used that route to attack Egypt on more than one previous occasion. (Persia then ruled Egypt.)

These Jews had their own small house of worship on the island. There's evidence they performed sacrifices there. But those jews also worshipped some of the local idols & some persial idols as well. One Egyptian idol they worshipped was Khnum, the god whom the Egyptians believed regulated the rise & ebb of the Nile.

Those Jews were there for most of the 5th C. BC, but there's no record of them in the Jewish writings at all. However, Josephus wrote about a later Jewish settlement at Leontopolis which included a temple, during the 100s BC. Less evidence has been found for this, although Jewish mercenaries were employed in the area for a good while, mostly by the Ptolemies. those jews were said to also have an impure worship of idols as well as God. Their main use as mercenaries was against invasion by the Seleucids.

These Jewish settlements do NOT appear to be the fulfillment of Isaiah 19:19. They didn't live in the middle of Egypt, nor did they build a memorial pillar to God at the border.

Arabic can be considered as largely coming from old Canaanite tongues, and, as most Egyptians speak Arabic today, it could be a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 19. But God said He would smite Egypt, then heal it. The healing has not yet begun, as is evident from Egypt's poverty. And Egypt is still terrified of Judah.

 

[David Kent]

Once again, a bunny trail. The FACT that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred renders your whole post moot.

As you keep repeating your posts ad nauseum, I will repeat mine. That is not in question. What is is question is your understanding of what is eschatological.

 

[David Kent]

Evidence of a Jewish settlement has been found on Elephantine Island, in the Nile, near the city of Aswan in Egypt, near its southern border. These jews were mercenaries in the employ of persia, whose job was to guard Egypt against invaders, mostly Nubians, who'd used that route to attack Egypt on more than one previous occasion. (Persia then ruled Egypt.)

These Jews had their own small house of worship on the island. There's evidence they performed sacrifices there. But those jews also worshipped some of the local idols & some persial idols as well. One Egyptian idol they worshipped was Khnum, the god whom the Egyptians believed regulated the rise & ebb of the Nile.

Those Jews were there for most of the 5th C. BC, but there's no record of them in the Jewish writings at all. However, Josephus wrote about a later Jewish settlement at Leontopolis which included a temple, during the 100s BC. Less evidence has been found for this, although Jewish mercenaries were employed in the area for a good while, mostly by the Ptolemies. those jews were said to also have an impure worship of idols as well as God. Their main use as mercenaries was against invasion by the Seleucids.

These Jewish settlements do NOT appear to be the fulfillment of Isaiah 19:19. They didn't live in the middle of Egypt, nor did they build a memorial pillar to God at the border.

Arabic can be considered as largely coming from old Canaanite tongues, and, as most Egyptians speak Arabic today, it could be a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 19. But God said He would smite Egypt, then heal it. The healing has not yet begun, as is evident from Egypt's poverty. And Egypt is still terrified of Judah.

]

That is not what Josephus was referring to. My grandson has now got my copy of Josephus so I can't look up the index which is not included in the online versions. But Josephus says there was a Jewish temple built in Egypt about the time of Antiochus Epiphanes.

 

[prophecy70]

They still display this deplorable lack of understanding regarding the meaning of γενεα. They fail to have sufficient knowledge of Greek words and their cognates. They just can't seem to get their heads around the fact that γενεα means "birth" or "to be born" and refers to all who were born descendants of a person, such as the Jews being descended from Abraham, and all mankind being descended from Adam and Noah.

Matthew
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

So please explain that passage then?

Once again, a bunny trail. The FACT that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred renders your whole post moot.

Robycops repitive ramblings, are the exact reason why you NEED Genea to refer to everyone and not just the current generation. The meaning of γενεα clearly means literal generation as well as shown in the verse above, so there is no REASON what so ever it can not mean one literal generation in Matthew 24.

The only thing you have done, was say we are ignorant because we don't understand the greek word. You still have not presented a unarguable thesis on how Generation is used in scripture, You chose a couple of verses that I explained, and then proceeded to tell me I ignored them.

Luke 1:50 and his mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation (geneas | γενεάς | acc pl fem) to generation (geneas | γενεάς | acc pl fem).


Luke 16:8 The master commended the dishonest manager because he acted shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation (genean | γενεάν | acc sg fem) than the sons of light.

Luke 17:25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation (geneas | γενεᾶς | gen sg fem).

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation (genea | γενεᾷ | dat sg fem), fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption

Acts 14:16 who in past generations (geneais | γενεαῖς | dat pl fem) allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways;

Ephesians 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations (geneais | γενεαῖς | dat pl fem) as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,

Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations (geneas | γενεάς | acc pl fem), forever and ever! Amen.

Colossians 1:26 the mystery that has been hidden for ages and generations (geneōn | γενεῶν | gen pl fem), but has now been revealed to his saints.

Please explain to me how genea in that form is not used as the current generation through scripture.

If Genea alone means all decedents from Abraham/Adam and to "be born", than what are past generations?

 

[asterisktom]

And the Scriptures state that one of the evidences of last times is folks casting doubt about the literal physical return of Christ.

Hmm. Nowhere does the Bible say what you claim it says. "Literal physical return"? You love your doctrine so much you insert it into the Bible.

 

[prophecy70]

And I don't see how any Christian can't believe the nazi holocaust was anything but punishment against the Jews.

Gods punishment?

All them innocent children killed by hitler were because Jews 2000 years ago killed christ? I think that is a horrible thing to conclude.

 

[prophecy70]

he same is true of religious arguments. Once a person finds he cannot defend his religion using reason and logic, IE with straight forward appeal to the scriptures as final authority, he/she adopts an emotional basis to cling to his religious beliefs. So, the facts of scripture mean nothing to him for he just ignores them. He says "that does not mean what it says. You have to spiritualize that." Then goes off on a flight of fancy with no reason or logic behind it "spiritualizing" every passage from the bible that disproves his false theory.

Are you explaining why you do this?

 

[TCassidy]

So please explain that passage then?

What part don't you understand?