Can Satan be saved?

[Allan]

Allan: Satan's will is free to what extent? Would you be willing to say that he is free to choose to do anything that is in keeping with his nature, but not free to go against his nature, which is evil, so he can not choose to love God?

This is all about the justification of God. That's the question asked in Romans "Is God just?"

If Satan does not have libertarian free will, how can God punish him forever for sins that he can not repent of.

If Christ did not die for Satan, then he has no way of salvation. How can God punish Satan if He has not even provided a way of redemption for him?

If Satan does have libertarian free will, then there must be some good in him, and there must be potential for him to be saved if he only had the opportunity, right?

Allan, what is Paul's answer to these questions?

First: Paul never addresses these questions. Not once.
Second: Your questions are not even hypotheticals, as I stated and showed in my last post.

However, regarding can he choose against his nature. He already did. Being in heaven, before the glory of the Lord. Knowing, seeing, serving, and being before and with the Lord, choose to be seperate from him. His nature was not evil in the beginning for he served the Lord, before His throne. He was called the covering Cherub. Some believe that title refers to the covering cherud of the mercy seat. He also walked in the midst of fire of the alter. Places no sin can stand - which is -Before God!

His nature was not as Adam's, innocent. Yet, angels and man are not the same to be compared in the same ways by the minds of men. It is comparing rocks to apples. God through the writer of Hebrews (whom I believe is Paul) stated that when a person who has partook, seen, knows, ect... IF they could fall away, it would be impossible for them to be saved again. That principle of being, falling away and not being able to saved shows or illistrates a consistant spiritual truth in heaven and in earth. Form our understanding of Satan, with him being, falling and no hope of salvation.

God IS Just. But God can not go against Himself. God does have limits. His limits are His Charactor and His Word. One (His Charactor) is already established because of who He is, the other (His word or decree) He establishes and because of who He is, He can not violate Himself. Some believe the false teaching that God can do what He wants and it is Just. No, God can not. If God wanted to save a person NOW, that he did not forknow - and did it - He would be Just against Himself because His action would be contrary to His eternal decree. "those He did foreknow, He did predestine...". The whole premise of your argument regarding CAN God save Satan NOW if He WANTED to - is False, and has NO basis to even hypothosize a sumation. Why because there IS NO CHANCE of possibility whereby a hypothosis is formed. So, God is Just, He just can go against His Just-ness. :laugh:

You once again, are equating Satan (and his following angels) with man as if we are the same. We are not. They were in Gods presense and knowing Him fully, they rebelled. In what way would they repent. "Sorry God we thought we could over throw you, but we didn't realized that wasn't righteous before you sowe want to say we are sorry and if you will forgive us." Even if God forgave them, WHY would they be sorry. It wouldn't be because they realized they were seperated from light and life and in sin, needing Him. It would be because they failed to over throw Him. Therefore they are sorry they got caught, not true repentance. They acted FULLY KNOWING what they were doing and the consiquence thereof. THEY KNEW, acted, and were cast down - forever. Because being spritiual beings those things done ALWAYS carry eternal value and worth. Just as our decision in the temporal time of life holds eternal significance in spiritual things we do. Not how many times did he brush his hair in life but what did he do spiritually with and in his life.

(IMO) Why do you think God mentions Lucifers past honored position and does not descirbe him only as what he currently is (as if it is what he always was). It is because all spiritual things done are eternal whether good or evil and nothing is forgotten. (IMO) and no, I don't preach or teach this 'opinion'.

But God can punish ANYONE who stands in direct contradiction to His will and laws, regardless of free will. Free-will just means they must choose God over self. It does not remove one from Gods justice but shows why God His justice is Just as it codemns those who willingly oppose Him. Is God Just to make (not as in create) a man disobedient and then Judge Him eternally to Damnation and torrment?? No, because according to Gods word it is contrary to righteous judgment. Just means you get exactly what you 'deserve'. I you do and act as God made you to, then a Just God would reward and not condemn. God is not Just because He is God, God is Just becuase of who He is by Nature and revealed by His word.

Free-will does not necessitate good or evil. Satan HAD his opportunity to choose self or God.

 

[J.D.]

You once again, are equating Satan (and his following angels) with man as if we are the same.

YOU are the one that used Heb 6 to answer a question about angels. Do you actually think that Heb 6 is about angels?

We are both drawing parallels and finding applications. Probably a bad hermeneutic. But again, we are dealing with the justification of God. I ask: how can God blame Satan if Satan does not have free will? If God justly denies Satan an opportunity to be saved, then wouldn’t He be equally just to deny any MAN an opportunity to be saved?

But let’s say you are right – Satan HAD an opportunity to remain righteous. Didn’t Adam have that same opportunity? But you would say that man must have free will restored to him through prevenient grace, to give him the ability to believe. And what of Satan? Mustn’t he have the same free will in order to have an opportunity to be saved? And if Satan does have free will, as you sheepishly imply in one of your posts, then it must be possible for him to be saved.

“They [angels] were in Gods presense and knowing Him fully, they rebelled.”

Who is this speaking of, men or angels: “but when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”

So tell me again how men are different than angels?

"Sorry God we thought we could over throw you, but we didn't realized that wasn't righteous before you sowe want to say we are sorry and if you will forgive us." Even if God forgave them, WHY would they be sorry. It wouldn't be because they realized they were seperated from light and life and in sin, needing Him. It would be because they failed to over throw Him. Therefore they are sorry they got caught, not true repentance.”

Are you speaking of men or angels here? How would I know the difference? Tell me again the difference between them.

If God can condemn Satan for one sin, He can do the same for man. The fact that neither Satan nor man has free will does not change that. Your arminian theology teaches you that justice demands free will. We have seen this to be false.

“God is not Just [just] because He is God”

Respectfully, your view of God’s authority is too low. Hear the parable of the vineyard hirelings:

(KJV) Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, [that] shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Notice this: 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?

And this: “Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."

 

[Allan]

YOU are the one that used Heb 6 to answer a question about angels. Do you actually think that Heb 6 is about angels?

No, I was showing that the principle is applicable. I was not comparing Satan and man but Gods word and where it states once they see and know, and fall away...they can not return.

We are both drawing parallels and finding applications. Probably a bad hermeneutic. But again, we are dealing with the justification of God. I ask: how can God blame Satan if Satan does not have free will? If God justly denies Satan an opportunity to be saved, then wouldn’t He be equally just to deny any MAN an opportunity to be saved?

As I have stated again, and again, and again, no. God could not blame Satan if God made Satan do whatever He wanted and Satan could not do anything but follow along. Satan would be blameless and God to blame. But with a freedom of will to do as he (satan) chooses, then blames rests upon his head. And if God decree those who have seen and know, if they fall away...they can not return - then the same principle applies to men who are the only other of Gods creation that would be capable of this but from a different perspective.

But let’s say you are right – Satan HAD an opportunity to remain righteous. Didn’t Adam have that same opportunity? But you would say that man must have free will restored to him through prevenient grace, to give him the ability to believe. And what of Satan? Mustn’t he have the same free will in order to have an opportunity to be saved? And if Satan does have free will, as you sheepishly imply in one of your posts, then it must be possible for him to be saved.

Yes, they had that opportunity.
You assume man lost it and therefore needs it restored. I say man has it but can not choose anything other than that which is corrupted by his nature unless God through prevenient grace reveal directly to man Truth, whereby man must either accept or reject it.
Again, and Again, and Again - NO. Satan can not BE saved NOW, period!
Satan and Man CAN NOT be equated as the same.


Who is this speaking of, men or angels: “but when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”

So tell me again how men are different than angels?

Are you speaking of men or angels here? How would I know the difference? Tell me again the difference between them.

[/COLOR]If God can condemn Satan for one sin, He can do the same for man. The fact that neither Satan nor man has free will does not change that. Your arminian theology teaches you that justice demands free will. We have seen this to be false.

Are you really asking this??
Angels - see God, His glory, are in His presence, know God, hear His words, see His acts. This one has not excuse.
Unsaved men - can only know (intellectually) of and about God. Having never seen nor have been partakers, nor in His presense. This one, until God reveals truth to him, has one.

Respectfully, your view of God’s authority is too low. Hear the parable of the vineyard hirelings:

And just as respectfully, it actaully far exceeds yours.

Notice this: 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
[/quote]OF course God can do what He chooses to His own. But He can not do anything contrary to His nature, Charactor, and word/decree.
However in this illistration I note:
1. He doesn't go out and give money to those who did not work (those not His)
2. He didn't withhold money or over pay some that were His.
3. He maintain according to His purpose and plan, and did not violate either. He gave each one their reward He promised, if they would work. It was their decision.

And this: “Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."

That verse in that chapter does not mean what you are wanting it to mean. It isn't about salvation but election to purpose (specifically about the Nation of Israel being Gods chosen people though not all His chosen were saved)

 

[J.D.]

No, I was showing that the principle is applicable. I was not comparing Satan and man but Gods word and where it states once they see and know, and fall away...they can not return.

As I have stated again, and again, and again, no. God could not blame Satan if God made Satan do whatever He wanted and Satan could not do anything but follow along. Satan would be blameless and God to blame. But with a freedom of will to do as he (satan) chooses, then blames rests upon his head. And if God decree those who have seen and know, if they fall away...they can not return - then the same principle applies to men who are the only other of Gods creation that would be capable of this but from a different perspective.

Yes, they had that opportunity.
You assume man lost it and therefore needs it restored. I say man has it but can not choose anything other than that which is corrupted by his nature unless God through prevenient grace reveal directly to man Truth, whereby man must either accept or reject it.
Again, and Again, and Again - NO. Satan can not BE saved NOW, period!
Satan and Man CAN NOT be equated as the same.


Who is this speaking of, men or angels: “but when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”

So tell me again how men are different than angels?


Are you really asking this??
Angels - see God, His glory, are in His presence, know God, hear His words, see His acts. This one has not excuse.
Unsaved men - can only know (intellectually) of and about God. Having never seen nor have been partakers, nor in His presense. This one, until God reveals truth to him, has one.


And just as respectfully, it actaully far exceeds yours.

Notice this: 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?

So if I understand you correctly, Satan HAD free will, but lost it when he sinned.

But man had free will, and sinned, yet retained his free will.

How can it be justice to take away free will from one and not the other?

Here is the scriptural formula:

Satan sinned = condemned = justice
Adam sinned = Christ condemned = Adam saved = ?????

Where is the justice in that?

Ah, but you say Satan's sin was worse than Adam's sin. You have no scriptural argument for that. Scripture speaks of Adam's sin in this way: "but when they knew God, they glorified him not as God"; "who knowing the judgement of God, not only do such things...".

Of course, God was justified in condemning Satan for one sin without any chance for redemption. And God is equally justified in condemning men without any chance for redemption.



Edited - some of Allan's post in the quotations was accidently deleted - I couldn't restore it.

 

[Allan]

So if I understand you correctly, Satan HAD free will, but lost it when he sinned.

But man had free will, and sinned, yet retained his free will.

How can it be justice to take away free will from one and not the other?

Here is the scriptural formula:

Satan sinned = condemned = justice
Adam sinned = Christ condemned = Adam saved = ?????

Where is the justice in that?

Ah, but you say Satan's sin was worse than Adam's sin. You have no scriptural argument for that. Scripture speaks of Adam's sin in this way: "but when they knew God, they glorified him not as God"; "who knowing the judgement of God, not only do such things...".

Of course, God was justified in condemning Satan for one sin without any chance for redemption. And God is equally justified in condemning men without any chance for redemption.



Edited - some of Allan's post in the quotations was accidently deleted - I couldn't restore it.

Are you even reading what I'm writing J.D.??

I NEVER said "after Satan sinned he lost his free-will", nor did I say or insinuate that Satans sin is "worse" than Adams!

Where are you getting this stuff cause it isn't from my posts.

satan:
had seen, partook, and knew the full glory of God = Then sinned = Condemned = Justice appeased

Adam:
Had not seen, nor partook, nor knew the full glory of God = then sinned = Condemned = Christ substitutary death = Justice appeased = Adam saved

What is the difference, just look. Having full knowledge of God, seen ,partook and then rebelled leaves you with no alternitive option but condemnation.

 

[J.D.]

Are you even reading what I'm writing J.D.??

I NEVER said "after Satan sinned he lost his free-will", nor did I say or insinuate that Satans sin is "worse" than Adams!

Where are you getting this stuff cause it isn't from my posts.

satan:
had seen, partook, and knew the full glory of God = Then sinned = Condemned = Justice appeased

Adam:
Had not seen, nor partook, nor knew the full glory of God = then sinned = Condemned = Christ substitutary death = Justice appeased = Adam saved

What is the difference, just look. Having full knowledge of God, seen ,partook and then rebelled leaves you with no alternitive option but condemnation.

Allan, sorry it’s taken so long to get back to this. Here is your post #56:

Let me clarify my statement, if I may.

You need to define FREE. Libertarian? Limited?
I believe,yes, Satan (like man) has a limited freedom of the will even NOW.

In speaking on the issue of men, I actaully use the term 'resposiblity of choice' an dnot free-will. it portraies IMO the biblical fact that men are resposible for and to the truths Gods reveals to them.
Either belief of the truth unto Life Eternal
or
Rejection of that truth unto damnation

I guess it’s not clear enough for me. You asked me to define FREE, which I think I did, but here it is anyway – I mean free, as in, libertarian. I don’t why you would think that I would mean anything other than that. You should know that when I speak of “free will theology”, it means libertarian free will.

But I’m asking YOU to define what YOU mean by free will, which you did to some degree in your post. You say that Satan has “limited” free will. What does that mean?

CHOICE is a function of will. RESPONSIBILITY is a function of justice. I agree that both men and angels are responsible for their choices. But do they CHOOSE FREELY?

Here is my summation and I’ll not labor the point any further:

No, Satan cannot be saved and here is why: Satan is free to choose whatever is consistent with his nature. He cannot choose to do that which is against his nature. Therefore, he is not free to choose Christ as his savior because it is against his nature to do so. So Satan will suffer forever in Hell as the eternal enemy of God.

But I hear no outcries against God’s justice, seeing that Satan had no ability to repent after his fall. But let it be said that a human being would be cast into Hell by the same terms, and people start foaming and gnashing their teeth.

But if God is just in the first case, He is also just in the second case. The fact that God executes wrath on the vessels he has prepared for that purpose is the most offensive thought in the mind of prideful man. Man, in his insolence, will say to God, “what doest thou?”, and “why do you yet find fault?”, and “why have you made me thus?”. But who are you, oh man, to reply against God?

 

[Allan]

Allan, sorry it’s taken so long to get back to this. Here is your post #56:


I guess it’s not clear enough for me. You asked me to define FREE, which I think I did, but here it is anyway – I mean free, as in, libertarian. I don’t why you would think that I would mean anything other than that. You should know that when I speak of “free will theology”, it means libertarian free will.

But I’m asking YOU to define what YOU mean by free will, which you did to some degree in your post. You say that Satan has “limited” free will. What does that mean?

CHOICE is a function of will. RESPONSIBILITY is a function of justice. I agree that both men and angels are responsible for their choices. But do they CHOOSE FREELY?

Here is my summation and I’ll not labor the point any further:

No, Satan cannot be saved and here is why: Satan is free to choose whatever is consistent with his nature. He cannot choose to do that which is against his nature. Therefore, he is not free to choose Christ as his savior because it is against his nature to do so. So Satan will suffer forever in Hell as the eternal enemy of God.

But I hear no outcries against God’s justice, seeing that Satan had no ability to repent after his fall. But let it be said that a human being would be cast into Hell by the same terms, and people start foaming and gnashing their teeth.

But if God is just in the first case, He is also just in the second case. The fact that God executes wrath on the vessels he has prepared for that purpose is the most offensive thought in the mind of prideful man. Man, in his insolence, will say to God, “what doest thou?”, and “why do you yet find fault?”, and “why have you made me thus?”. But who are you, oh man, to reply against God?

Theopedia says of "Libertarian Free Will":
Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God

In other words (also found in 'free will' section of theopedia):
... The creature has the moral ability to turn to God in Christ and believe of his own "free will," apart from a divine grace.

THIS view is what Luther was disputing in his work "Bondage of the Will".

I do not hold to 'libertarian free will', which can be classified more modernly as Open Theism for the most part.

Pelagain held this same view. Man can come to God on his own and if Gods grace was imparted, though beneficial it was not necessary.

Semi-Pels hold to much the same view with a minor difference:
Man comes to God on his own but realizes he can not save himself and God steps in 'gracing' him with salvation (grace is mans reward for coming to God without Gods intervention). Semi-Pel is based off the foundational premise of man choosing to come to God, WITHOUT Gods intervention. But they teach that it is necessary for humans to make the first step toward God and then God will complete their salvation

Unfortunately many people misunderstand present day usage of the term 'free-will' and equate it with the Pelagain and semi-Pel theological usage back 4 to 500 years ago. They erroneously presuppose the converse meaning is just the same as it's original definition (ex of converse. God comes to man first, and then man cooperates). This completely undermines the Pelagian theology and the premise on which the Semi-Pel theology is based, that man must FIRST come to God through his free will. Both views epitomize man being the initiator and God obeying or cooperating with man.

Gods grace is not causal in these theologies but is an effect due to the causation of mans will. Man prompts God to act.

However, the reverse IS biblical truth and NOT IN LINE with their theology.
That being - Gods Grace is the causation (first cause) which effects mans will. God prompts man to act.

To acknowledge man can not see for himself that he is in need of a savior, goes against the theological frame work on which it is established because they are both based on 'Libertarian' Free-will. Or better the ability to choose against your nature without any outside help or aide. (Man prompting God to act WITHOUT Gods divine intervention)

I believe in limited freedom of the will, or what I call the responsibility of the will. That man is only free or responsible to accept or reject the truths God has revealed to him. IOW- the only time man can act in freedom or responsibility is if and when God chooses to reveal truth to man FIRST. It is ONLY then man can believe or reject


you stated:

No, Satan cannot be saved and here is why: Satan is free to choose whatever is consistent with his nature. He cannot choose to do that which is against his nature. Therefore, he is not free to choose Christ as his savior because it is against his nature to do so. So Satan will suffer forever in Hell as the eternal enemy of God.

If that were true, he would have never rebelled.
Or if that were true he would not have served God for one second because his nature would have been completely against it.

You start off with a false premise that is disproven by common sense. If one can not go against their nature, then Satan either could not have rebelled or he could not have served/ministered before God as says the scriptures. But then THIS begs the question does Satan or angels HAVE a nature to go against?? We know man does since scripture speaks directly to it, but do angels?

But I hear no outcries against God’s justice, seeing that Satan had no ability to repent after his fall. But let it be said that a human being would be cast into Hell by the same terms, and people start foaming and gnashing their teeth

And you wont either. As I stated earlier Satan AND man are justly delt with by God.

God DOES NOT and DID NOT judge man in the same way He judged the angels and I have showed you that. Your refusal to listen doesn't negate that truth. The reason people be irrate at your proposal is because it is unbiblical to assume Gods justice has nothing to do with justice at all but whatever He chooses (as if His mere decision or whim that makes it just). Example. God kills a demon because it rebelled. And ... God kills an angel because that is what He wanted to do. The first is Just, but some would say the second is just also. Why, because God did it and that makes it Just. That is unbiblical non-sense.

To sentence the angelic host that rebelled against God (after knowing Him, seeing Him, ministering for and unto Him, and partaking of power and glory)- to sentence them to damnation for their rebellion is Just.

But for man to be sentenced to the same fate as those who had known Him, seen Him, ministered ...ect... when man NEVER saw, knew, partook of the same things as they did, is without question Unjust according Gods own standard Righteous Judgment. Justice is giving them what they deserve and they would not deserve the same fate as the angels. One was (at best) a rebellion agianst God Himself to over throw Him, and the other was disobedience and rejection of truth.

A Judge is not Just for sending the Attoney General to prison because he tried to over throw the Government ,while at the same time giving the exact same fate to a person who sped past a speed limit sign.

Your whole "vessels of wrath prepared" speach is assuming everyone is of the same opinion God created some people with His only desire to put them in Hell. That being His only intention for them is that He planned their existence for nothing but Hell). I am of the opinion that this is not the case biblically and not the context of the passage. In context Romans 9 isn't about election of or unto salvation but election of Isreal as a Nation to be Gods people and many were not saved though they were Nationally Gods people. Anyway this part of your writing and my answer really has no bearing on this discussion from my stance on scripture.


BTW - You have now changed your OP to "Can God save Satan, NOW if He wanted to" ... to ... "Why can God not judge man the same way He judged Angels"? Maybe that might do better as another thread

 

[Brother Bob]

A resounding No! If satan was saved, then who would the rest of us be saved from?