Can saved people drink alchoholic wine and really be saved?

[PK]

Was the "fruit of the vine" at the Lord's table wine? This is a picture type of Christ blood, correct? Doesn't the Bible say we are redeemed but incorruptible things meaning Christ Blood? Then how could this be fermented or corrupt wine?

 

[Dale-c]

Is this good corn, good grape juice, and good oil? Or is it moldy corn, fermented grape juice, and bad oil. I don't think this would be good the case.

To compare wine to moldy corn shows an ignorance of the process of winemaking.
There is a huge difference.

Is it the grape juice part of wine that is good for your health or the fermented part that is good for your health?

If that is an honest question, I will post a link that shows the positive effects of wine on the heart.
The more you drink the better it is for your heart up to a point.
Then, if you keep drinking, it gets worse for you.
Then if you keep drinking even more, it is worse than it would be if you never drank any at all.
They call it the "J" curve.

Very interesting.

 

[TCGreek]

While drunkards in 1 Cor 6:10, Greek methysos and not paroinos as in 1 Tim 3:3, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Drunkenness is forbidden but not a little wine--that is what I see in Scripture.

 

[Dale-c]

Was the "fruit of the vine" at the Lord's table wine? This is a picture type of Christ blood, correct? Doesn't the Bible say we are redeemed but incorruptible things meaning Christ Blood? Then how could this be fermented or corrupt wine?

Quite the contrary. Proper fermentation is a refining process, not a spoiling process.

 

[ccrobinson]

Please educate me. When was it decided that fermentation equals corruption?

 

[Dale-c]

Please educate me. When was it decided that fermentation equals corruption?

I am not sure, but if I had to guess I would say it was with Carrie Nation or some other leader of the feminist temperance movement.
Of course there was nothing feminine or temperate about them.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. The Greek in 1 Tim 3:3 is me paroinon--"not drunkards"--didn't say they couldn't use wine.



2. The Greek in 1 Tim 3:8 is me oinw pollw prosechontas--"not paying attention to much wine."

3. The Greek constructions are clearly not the same.

4. So, I encourage you to pick another battle from the Greek perspective. :thumbs:

Not given to wine
3943
paroinoV
paroinos
par'-oy-nos
from para - para 3844 and oinoV - oinos 3631; staying near wine, i.e. tippling (a toper):--given to wine.

 

[TCGreek]

3943
paroinoV
paroinos
par'-oy-nos
from para - para 3844 and oinoV - oinos 3631; staying near wine, i.e. tippling (a toper):--given to wine.

1. Which doesn't forbid drinking wine at all--a person is just not "given to wine." There is a difference.

2. I can drink coffee within being "given to coffee." When I'm "given to coffee" I become an addict. That's my understanding of what Paul is saying.

 

[Allan]

I will say this:

There is nothing inherently evil with wine itself.
I do believe it can be used for medicinal purposes and can even be drunk IF a person so chooses on rare occassions, but NOT socially like a pop or Tea.

I think there are some factors that should be anwered however before a person imparts:


The other two are really one but they are more something to ponder:

1. The weaker brother (1 Cor 8:13)

2. Priests were FORBIDDEN to drink BEFORE or DURING their duties by penalty of death from God Himself (Lev 10:8-10) Showing the difference between clean and unclean, and that which is Holy and Unholy.

3. It is extremly prudent that Kings and Princes/Rulers NOT to drink wine nor strong drink. (Prov 31:4) A king and ruler are at all times a judge of all things under them and with in their rule, whether at dinner or in the great hall. If you will note in scripture many Kings/Rulers did the stupidest things while drinking at dinner

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1. Which doesn't forbid drinking wine at all--a person is just not "given to wine." There is a difference.

2. I can drink coffee within being "given to coffee." When I'm "given to coffee" I become an addict. That's my understanding of what Paul is saying.

May the Lord open your eyes that you might better understand
what "Look not thou" means in relation to "not given to wine".

 

[TCGreek]

I will say this:

There is nothing inherently evil with wine itself.
I do believe it can be used for medicinal purposes and can even be drunk IF a person so chooses on rare occassions, but NOT socially like a pop or Tea.

I think there are some factors that should be anwered however before a person imparts:


The other two are really one but they are more something to ponder:

1. The weaker brother (1 Cor 8:13)

2. Priests were FORBIDDEN to drink BEFORE or DURING their duties by penalty of death from God Himself (Lev 10:8-10) Showing the difference between clean and unclean, and that which is Holy and Unholy.

3. It is extremly prudent that Kings and Princes/Rulers NOT to drink wine nor strong drink. (Prov 31:4) A king and ruler are at all times a judge of all things under them and with in their rule, whether at dinner or in the great hall. If you will note in scripture many Kings/Rulers did the stupidest things while drinking at dinner

I agree with #1, but I'm not getting it on #'s 2 and 3---what's the significance today?

 

[TCGreek]

May the Lord open your eyes that you might better understand
what "Look not thou" means in relation to "not given to wine".

Is "Look not thou" from the Bible? Can you give me the reference? Thank you.

 

[Dale-c]

Allen, with minor exceptions, I think your post is spot on.
As far as socially, I think this is fine and even a good thing.
BUt perhaps what you are getting at is that it should be taken seriously.
Knowing the problems with going to far.

I ordered a burgundy this evening with dinner and my wife drank about hald of it.
She had a really long day and it was so good for her.
She was really stressed and that small amount of red wine was just the thing to make her feel better tonight.

I am thankful to God for that blessing.

 

[Dale-c]

I agree with #1, but I'm not getting it on #'s 2 and 3---what's the significance today?

THe idea of rulers drikning and possibly perverting judgement is yet another prohibition of abusing wine.

Rulers should still be careful these days.

 

[Allan]

1. The Greek in 1 Tim 3:3 is me paroinon--"not drunkards"--didn't say they couldn't use wine.



2. The Greek in 1 Tim 3:8 is me oinw pollw prosechontas--"not paying attention to much wine."

3. The Greek constructions are clearly not the same.

4. So, I encourage you to pick another battle from the Greek perspective. :thumbs:

Greek perspective?

Did you happen to see ANY Greek in what I wrote? Didn't think so.

I was be silly toward an extremist position, thus the final comment about how they see it. THAT WAS FUNNY. It wouldn't make any sense if that was what Paul was meaning.


HOWEVER, I would add this though. If drinking was so common and supposedly not seen as a bad thing to other believers back then. WHY, did Timothy need to be encouraged by Paul to take even alittle for medical purposes and no longer just water? There was even then a conflict of sorts with regard to this debate still raging today.

 

[Dale-c]

Is "Look not thou" from the Bible? Can you give me the reference? Thank you.

I think this is what he meant. If you take the one verse in isolation you might come up with his point.
BUt if you actually read the whole passage, it is obvious that it is talking about drunkeness once again.

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

 

[TCGreek]

I think this is what he meant. If you take the one verse in isolation you might come up with his point.
BUt if you actually read the whole passage, it is obvious that it is talking about drunkeness once again.

Dale-c,

Thank you. I notice you are serving as an interpreter of sorts. :laugh:

 

[Dale-c]

WHY, did Timothy need to be encouraged by Paul to take even alittle for medical purposes and no longer just water?

I see no evidence of a conflict back then.

Have you ever had an ailment and someone suggested to you an everyday item to heal you?

It has happened to me before.
Nothing unusual about that at all.
Besides, what difference does it make to what the bible says?

 

[TCGreek]

Greek perspective?

Did you happen to see ANY Greek in what I wrote? Didn't think so.

I was be silly toward an extremist position, thus the final comment about how they see it. THAT WAS FUNNY. It wouldn't make any sense if that was what Paul was meaning.


HOWEVER, I would add this though. If drinking was so common and supposedly not seen as a bad thing to other believers back then. WHY, did Timothy need to be encouraged by Paul to take even alittle for medical purposes and no longer just water? There was even then a conflict of sorts with regard to this debate still raging today.

Exactly! At last we have found a point of agreement. I believe because your head is clear tonight--not given to much wine. :laugh:

 

[Dale-c]

Dale-c,

Thank you. I notice you are serving as an interpreter of sorts.

Well, see I grew up with that side of the argument.
Then I had the audacity to read the REST of the story as Paul Harvey would say

I found it didn't say what I had been told at all.