Can someone WANT to be saved but not be?

[jbh28]

Please answer this question:
WHO determines what desire is the greatest?

I believe we choose from among our desires thus we determine what desire is 'greatest.' You seem to think the desire makes the determination but you seem unwilling to answer the question above. I think we all know why. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm not answering it because I'm not discussing it. :smilewinkgrin:

So back to the actual question at hand, "Do you agree with me that we always choose our greatest desire with the options available to us at the time of the choice?"

And yes, we do have multiple desire and choose between the desires and it will always be which desire is the greatest at that moment with the available options.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

show me an instance where one would choose against their greatest desire withing the options available to him.

This was covered here:

Suppose Greg was in the New York City subway system and there was a baby on the tracks with an oncoming train. Further, equidistant from Greg in the opposite direction, was another baby on tracks, with another separate oncoming train. The trains are traveling at identical speeds identical distances away from the respective babies. Greg is the only one who has seen either case, and is the only one who can help either baby, but he cannot help both in time. There are no others around to help, and Greg has mere seconds to act. Greg’s greatest desire is to save both babies. More properly, Greg experiences an equal level of desire to save both babies. In this thought experiment, no prejudices cloud Greg’s mind, and he has no fear for his own safety. Provided Greg was at a vantage point to see and realize at exactly the same time the plight of each baby, which one will he choose to save?

Obviously...Greg will invariably choose one baby or the other to save....but desire has nothing to do with the decision.....We would then be forced to appeal to something else.....I submit un-caused Human volition.

 

[jbh28]

This was covered here:

Suppose Greg was in the New York City subway system and there was a baby on the tracks with an oncoming train. Further, equidistant from Greg in the opposite direction, was another baby on tracks, with another separate oncoming train. The trains are traveling at identical speeds identical distances away from the respective babies. Greg is the only one who has seen either case, and is the only one who can help either baby, but he cannot help both in time. There are no others around to help, and Greg has mere seconds to act. Greg’s greatest desire is to save both babies. More properly, Greg experiences an equal level of desire to save both babies. In this thought experiment, no prejudices cloud Greg’s mind, and he has no fear for his own safety. Provided Greg was at a vantage point to see and realize at exactly the same time the plight of each baby, which one will he choose to save?

Obviously...Greg will invariably choose one baby or the other to save....but desire has nothing to do with the decision.....We would then be forced to appeal to something else.....I submit un-caused Human volition.

i already answered this. the option of saving both is not available. Remember, its the greatest desire within the options available to you. Since that option is not available, it's a moot point.

 

[Skandelon]

I'm not answering it because I'm not discussing it.

The answer you're avoiding is: GOD. God determines your greatest desire thus determining what choice you make. You avoid giving this answer because of the obvious culpability issues.

So back to the actual question at hand, "Do you agree with me that we always choose our greatest desire with the options available to us at the time of the choice?"

No. I've told you already that I believe we choose from among our desires thus determining which is the greatest. Desires don't make choices, people do. What you are describing is animal instinct.

And yes, we do have multiple desire and choose between the desires and it will always be which desire is the greatest at that moment with the available options.

You act as if the desire is the greatest prior to being chosen, thus leaving the question unanswered: WHO, if not you, determines which desire is greatest?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

i already answered this. the option of saving both is not available. Remember, its the greatest desire within the options available to you. Since that option is not available, it's a moot point.

You don't understand what I am saying.....I am submitting to you that DESIRE has nothing to do with what decision is made in this scenario....a decision will be made....and desire will be a NON-Factor...therefore decisions then are made by:

1.) desires AND......
2.) at least 1 more factor

I am suggesting that there are decisions made NOT based on one's greatest desire...because there are plausible scenarios where "desire" is simply not a factor at all, be it greatest weakest neither.

 

[webdog]

How so? Who says that you cannot reason? I sure didn't. Haven't heard anyone else say it either.

the very doctrine you are defending! The only conclusion to man always choosing his greatest desire says it.

You didn't address the person always choosing to run away, btw (acting on his greatest desire)

I'm not arguing for or against "compatibilsm." Please address what I'm saying. It's not contradictory at all. You have multiple options and you will always choose that which is your greatest desire. If one disagrees, show me an instance where one would choose against their greatest desire withing the options available to him.

you ARE arguing for compatibilism, even admitting it here!

I already showed you. The person who is held up at gunpoint who doesn't remove themself from the situation is acting against his greatest desire.

 

[jbh28]

The answer you're avoiding is...

I'm not avoiding anything Skan. I'm discussing one point at a time. i'm not following you along your deviation.

No. I've told you already that I believe we choose from among our desires thus determining which is the greatest. Desires don't make choices, people do. What you are describing is animal instinct.

I said people make choices, but we make choices according to our own desires.

You act as if the desire is the greatest prior to being chosen, thus leaving the question unanswered: WHO, if not you, determines which desire is greatest?

We'll get to that after we get level one down. If you guys can't get level one, why go to level two?

 

[jbh28]

the very doctrine you are defending! The only conclusion to man always choosing his greatest desire says it.

You didn't address the person always choosing to run away, btw (acting on his greatest desire)
you ARE arguing for compatibilism, even admitting it here!

I already showed you. The person who is held up at gunpoint who doesn't remove themself from the situation is acting against his greatest desire.

ok, let's add that to the options. We now have 3 options

1) Keep your wallet and run away and get shot and die
2) Keep your wallet and stand there and get shot and die
3) give the guy your wallet

You do not h ave the option of running away with a gun at your head. You would be shot. Do you understand now? It's your greatest desire with the options available to you. Obviously, your greatest desire (of the ones available).

It's like multiple choice. you have 3 choices. Which of the 3 do you desire more. That's the one you pick. If you think you can run away safely, then yes, you would pick that. But if you think running away will get you shot, then you given him you wallet because your greatest desire is to live.

Whether God determines the desire or not is not relevant to the point currently.

btw, compatibilism is the understanding that God is completely sovereign over all areas of life, yet man still can make choices. I'm not discussing that. I'm not discussing what our desires are based on.

 

[jbh28]

You don't understand what I am saying.....I am submitting to you that DESIRE has nothing to do with what decision is made in this scenario....a decision will be made....and desire will be a NON-Factor...therefore decisions then are made by:

1.) desires AND......
2.) at least 1 more factor

I am suggesting that there are decisions made NOT based on one's greatest desire...because there are plausible scenarios where "desire" is simply not a factor at all, be it greatest weakest neither.

You still haven't given a scenario where desire isn't a factor in the decision. I understand what you are saying, but you missed my point. You have options in a circumstance. You choose of the options that you most want. The other factors limit our choices and thus we choose from the remaining choices. You always choose what you most want with the options available to you at the time.

btw, which one will the guy choose do you think? And what do you think he will base that choice on?

 

[Gina B]

Do you believe someone can genuinely want to come to Christ and find salvation but not ever be saved?

Defend you position.

I don't know about "not ever," but can very well see it happening.

Defend my position: I was there for a while in my life, crying out to God for belief and wanting to believe and I just didn't.

Then one day it happened but it really wasn't an "I" moment at all. That may explain a lot. What I wanted vs being taught that none of it was in my hands or in my control.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You still haven't given a scenario where desire isn't a factor in the decision.

Desire is a non-factor in the decision of which baby to save...He has no particular reason to prefer one or the other.

You always choose what you most want with the options available to you at the time.

Unless there is no desire to save any one baby vs. another.

btw, which one will the guy choose do you think?

I have no idea

And what do you think he will base that choice on?

I have no idea....but the one thing I can rule out is desire. Therefore desire is not the only factor involved in decision-making.

 

[webdog]

ok, let's add that to the options. We now have 3 options

1) Keep your wallet and run away and get shot and die
2) Keep your wallet and stand there and get shot and die
3) give the guy your wallet

You do not h ave the option of running away with a gun at your head. You would be shot. Do you understand now? It's your greatest desire with the options available to you. Obviously, your greatest desire (of the ones available).

why are these the only 3 options? How about
4. keep your wallet, run away and live
5. Keep your wallet, stand there and he changes his mind.
6. Give him your wallet and he shoots you dead anyway.

You see, desire plays a little role in your decision. You reason and make the decision based on that, not desire. At any rate THE greatest desire (which is also an option) is to remove yourself from the situation. According to compatibilism one must do just that, meaning standing there and keeping the wallet or handing it over do not play into your greatest desire and are not real options (according to compatibilism).

It's like multiple choice. you have 3 choices. Which of the 3 do you desire more. That's the one you pick. If you think you can run away safely, then yes, you would pick that. But if you think running away will get you shot, then you given him you wallet because your greatest desire is to Live.

the greatest desire is to live with your wallet. If you turn over the wallet you have just gone against that.

 

[jbh28]

why are these the only 3 options? How about
4. keep your wallet, run away and live
5. Keep your wallet, stand there and he changes his mind.
6. Give him your wallet and he shoots you dead anyway.

Sure, if they are there. And you will choose the option you want the most.

You see, desire plays a little role in your decision. You reason and make the decision based on that, not desire. At any rate THE greatest desire (which is also an option) is to remove yourself from the situation. According to compatibilism one must do just that, meaning standing there and keeping the wallet or handing it over do not play into your greatest desire and are not real options (according to compatibilism).

according to common sense, one will do just that. But if you believe removing yourself from the situation will get you killed, it is no longer your greatest desire as living is really your greatest desire and thus you will make the choice that gives you the best chance of living because living is your greatest desire.

the greatest desire is to live with your wallet. If you turn over the wallet you have just gone against that.

Not at all. I'm not sure why you guys are having difficulty with this. Living with your wallet is NOT an option. The guy has a gun right at your head and you will die if you don't give him your wallet. Your greatest desire is to live and thus you give him your wallet because you want to do that more than any other option that available to you at the time.

I'm not sure why you want to argue such a basic fundamental thought. Oh, and this isn't about compatibilism as much as it's common sense. We can get to what determines our desires when you guys gets level one down.

 

[jbh28]

Desire is a non-factor in the decision of which baby to save...He has no particular reason to prefer one or the other.

Unless there is no desire to save any one baby vs. another.

I have no idea



I have no idea....but the one thing I can rule out is desire. Therefore desire is not the only factor involved in decision-making.

If you don't know, you cannot rule out desire as you are not qualified to make such a statement .

Now, his desire is to save a baby. he will save the baby he believes will be the easiest to save. Why? because his greatest desire that's now available to him is to save at least one baby and thus will make decisions based on that. He will choose one and he will choose the one he wants. He may be right handed and thus go to his right. There are many factors(and maybe even subconscious factors) that he will make a choice and he will choose which one he wants more.

your situation would be more of an exception(which I don't believe it is anyway).

 

[Skandelon]

I'm not avoiding anything Skan.

Then why haven't you answered the question? Who determines what is the greatest desire? That is not avoiding the topic or a 'deviation.' It gets the very heart of the issue and I believe you actually know it.

I said people make choices, but we make choices according to our own desires.

Which is another way of saying that desires make the choice. If a person must necessarily choose according to their greatest desire then who, if not that person, determines what is the greatest desire. You know as well as I do this is the very heart of the issue regarding divine determination, so just answer the question and we can move to the next point.

We'll get to that after we get level one down. If you guys can't get level one, why go to level two?

What are you talking about? This is level one. You think we are determined by our desires and we disagree, next point.

 

[Winman]

Sure, if they are there. And you will choose the option you want the most.

according to common sense, one will do just that. But if you believe removing yourself from the situation will get you killed, it is no longer your greatest desire as living is really your greatest desire and thus you will make the choice that gives you the best chance of living because living is your greatest desire.

You are proving our point. You yourself appeal to common sense. We weigh our options according to reason, and determine our greatest desire.

Now Webdog has pointed out that our greatest desire is to both live, and keep our wallet. If so, we will attempt to run away 100% of the time.

But, as you correctly stated, we reason that our best possible option is to give the man the wallet. We reason this gives us the greatest chance of survival. It is not our greatest desire, but we decide to give the man the wallet anyway. Your choice is based on your reasoning, not your desire.

This is why I kept telling you I would not want to give the man my wallet. That is true. Even if I give the man my wallet, it is not my greatest desire.

Not at all. I'm not sure why you guys are having difficulty with this. Living with your wallet is NOT an option. The guy has a gun right at your head and you will die if you don't give him your wallet. Your greatest desire is to live and thus you give him your wallet because you want to do that more than any other option that available to you at the time.

Living with your wallet is an option, you can choose to take your chances and run away if you want to, people do it all the time. If the robber is old, and you are young, you stand a good chance of getting away.

I'm not sure why you want to argue such a basic fundamental thought. Oh, and this isn't about compatibilism as much as it's common sense. We can get to what determines our desires when you guys gets level one down.

It is not a basic fundamental. It is a false argument you happen to believe. Just because you believe something does not make it true.

It is you that cannot get to level one, we are rational beings, we make decisions based upon reason, not desires. We determine what is our greatest desire, our desires do not make choices for us.

 

[jbh28]

Then why haven't you answered the question? Who determines what is the greatest desire? That is not avoiding the topic or a 'deviation.' It gets the very heart of the issue and I believe you actually know it.

Maybe you have trouble reading, but I'm not discussing that point yet. It is a deviation from what I'm discussing. I will only respond currently to what I'm discussing. When we get this point down, we then can discuss what/who determines what is the greatest desire.

What are you talking about? This is level one. You think we are determined by our desires and we disagree, next point.

But you are wrong. You choose to post this because you wanted to. Correct? If you would have rather have done something else, you would have. Now, you say, wait, I would rather be at the beach. then why don't you go? Hmmm, because you have other desires.

If you want to dicuss this with me, we will stick to one point. I will not follow you on your path to another point until this one is finished. It may work with other people, but not me.

 

[jbh28]

You are proving our point. You yourself appeal to common sense. We weigh our options according to reason, and determine our greatest desire.

As I've stated many times over, I have never said that reason was not part of the situation. Like the story of the robber, you reason that running away would get you shot, so therefore you eliminate that option.

Now Webdog has pointed out that our greatest desire is to both live, and keep our wallet. If so, we will attempt to run away 100% of the time.

but not if that option is not available as noted above(which I've stated very consistently.)

But, as you correctly stated, we reason that our best possible option is to give the man the wallet. We reason this gives us the greatest chance of survival. It is not our greatest desire, but we decide to give the man the wallet anyway. Your choice is based on your reasoning, not your desire.

Your greatest desire within the options available to you, not your greatest desire(period) Again, where have I ever stated that reasoning was not part of the equation. I've simply said that our final choice will be based on what we want most. And in this situation, it's life over death.

This is why I kept telling you I would not want to give the man my wallet. That is true. Even if I give the man my wallet, it is not my greatest desire.

But it is a greater desire than the option of keeping the wallet and dying correct? So if you realize that you only have two options, then you will choose the greater desire(and here it's to live).

Living with your wallet is an option, you can choose to take your chances and run away if you want to, people do it all the time. If the robber is old, and you are young, you stand a good chance of getting away.

but you have now changed the situation. you have reasoned that the option to run away is a viable one and thus you would choose to run away because it would be your greatest desire of your available options.

1. run away with wallet and live
2. give wallet to robber and live
3. keep wallet and die

Now, I've listed these options in my desired order. Now, if I realize that option 1 is no longer viable, then option two because my greatest desire because I have eliminated option 1.

It is not a basic fundamental. It is a false argument you happen to believe. Just because you believe something does not make it true.

prove it wrong. however, you seem to be arguing against a straw man. you may not be meaning to, but you are. Instead of reading what I have actually said, you assume something. I've never stated that reasoning is not a factor, but that in the end you will choose that which you want the most.

 

[Winman]

Skan is offline now, but I will discuss this with you.

Go back to the robbery scenario. Imagine yourself actually being in this situation.

The first thing you are going to do is evaluate the situation. If you are in an open area with no means of escape, and if the robber is young and you are old, your options are limited. You will most likely give the robber your wallet.

But what if there is a line of large box trucks parked along the street and you could easily dash behind them and run away? What if the robber is old and you are very young? It is very possible you could escape.

You see, whatever you decide is based upon reason. You are going to evaluate the situation and choose what you will do.

Your greatest desire would always be to both live and keep your wallet, if so, you would always attempt to escape. But that's not what people always do, do they?

But I will repeat again, NEVER do I desire to give the man my wallet, and neither would you. You can insist that you would desire to give the man your wallet, and you know it would be false. The first thing you would do after getting robbed is call the police because you have been robbed. You would be very offended that you were robbed. In no way did you desire to give the man your wallet and you know it.

We don't always do what we most desire to do.

 

[jbh28]

Skan is offline now, but I will discuss this with you.

Go back to the robbery scenario. Imagine yourself actually being in this situation.

The first thing you are going to do is evaluate the situation. If you are in an open area with no means of escape, and if the robber is young and you are old, your options are limited. You will most likely give the robber your wallet.

correct

But what if there is a line of large box trucks parked along the street and you could easily dash behind them and run away? What if the robber is old and you are very young? It is very possible you could escape.

correct again

You see, whatever you decide is based upon reason. You are going to evaluate the situation and choose what you will do.

Again, I've never denied reason. But after reason, you will choose according to your desire. In your first situation, you realized that you only had 2 options. Thus you choose the option you desired more. In the 2nd situation, you had another option because you realized you could escape and thus would take that option because it would be your greatest desire over the other ones.

Your greatest desire would always be to both live and keep your wallet, if so, you would always attempt to escape. But that's not what people always do, do they?

No, because when you look at the situation, you will limit your options because you would rather live and have your wallet. Since you realize that the option(like in situation 1 above) is not available, you greater desire is now to give the man your wallet.

But I will repeat again, NEVER do I desire to give the man my wallet, and neither would you. You can insist that you would desire to give the man your wallet, and you know it would be false.

again, yes you would if you reasoned that was your best option. If you realized that you only had two options, then you want to give that man your wallet more than than keeping your wallet because you know that keeping your wallet means you would die.

The first thing you would do after getting robbed is call the police because you have been robbed. You would be very offended that you were robbed. In no way did you desire to give the man your wallet and you know it.

you are looking at this incorrectly. You are isolating "desire" from the situation and you cannot do that. Of course you wouldn't normally desire to give the man the wallet and neither do you want to give it to him now. BUT, your desire to keep your wallet is not greater than your desire to live. So you want to give him your wallet more than you want to keep it and die.

Let's assume for the moment for simplicity that you only have 2 options. you realize that you cannot run away. He has the gun at your head. There is no option to run away. Even the Flash himself would die. Ok, so now, which option do you desire more? You do understand the phrase "lesser of the two evils" correct? Under normal circumstances, you would desire neither. But in this situation, you have a greater desire to give the man your wallet than to die.

would you rather have 2 teeth pulled or 4 teeth pulled. Ok, really we would probably want to keep all our teeth. But since that option is not available, we would probably rather to have to lose just 2 teeth instead of 4.

Let's change the situation. Suppose you are not deciding on keeping your wallet but protecting your family. The guy says hand me your child or I'll kill you. I bet your decision will be a bit different because I'm sure your desire to protect your family greatly outweighs your desire for you wallet. And I bet it does so to such an extent that your decision would be different. You would protect your family even if it meant dying. Such wouldn't' be the case for the wallet as your desire to keep your wallet is no where near the desire to protect your family.

So I would imagine your desire list would be like this.

1. protect family
2. Live
3. Have wallet.

so while you would choose to live over having the wallet, you probably wouldn't choose to live over the lives of your family.

We don't always do what we most desire to do.

yes we do as I have proven over and over and over again. Remember, its what you most desire to do with the options available to you at that moment. You will use common sense and reasoning that can limit your options. Like knowing that you can run away or not.

Do you understand what I'm saying now? You are isolating "desire" outside of the situation. We cannot do that. I'm using "desire" within the circumstance.