We always make our choices based on our desires. So when I have a choice in front of me, I'll choose the one I want the most. We have conflicting desires many times. You may want to keep your wallet, but you also want to live. Your desire to live is greater than your desire to keep your wallet so you choose to live and give up your wallet.
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Can someone WANT to be saved but not be?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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We always make our choices based on our desires. So when I have a choice in front of me, I'll choose the one I want the most. We have conflicting desires many times. You may want to keep your wallet, but you also want to live. Your desire to live is greater than your desire to keep your wallet so you choose to live and give up your wallet.
But the greatest desire is to not even be there, something you cannot choose. You do not always choose the greatest desire.
Yes...exactly correct romans 8 and 1 cor 2 explain how the Spirit is essential to a believer welcoming Divine truth.That is also why when someone is always getting truth wrong ...it is an indication that the person might be religious but unsaved.
I heard one pastor preach and explain that when we read psalm 119 for example...wh should be able to relate to what the psalmist writes about scripture in each of the commandments....they are like a plumbline for us.
it is part of a system of words and philosophy to undermine truth....compatiblism, determinism,contra-casual will, terms to avoid revealed truth.....redefine and fragment God's word...substitue mans vain reasoning, instead and in opposition to.
They put objective truth into the realm of subjective speculations which can be argued over....like this
well I think it means this
or
That word does not say that,
or i feel this way,
or
others have said this instead
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Tom Butler
New Member
Here is our point of agreement: the ability to believe is a gift from God. Whether it's given to everybody, as you believe, or whether it's given only to the elect is not at issue here
I believe than when one calls on the name of the Lord in repentance and faith, he will be saved. The problem is not with him, it's with those who are instructing the lost man regarding the way of salvation. More than once I have asked someone (after going through the scriptures) "Do you want God to save you? Then ask him." Then I shut up. If I have to tell him the words to say, then I have failed to properly instruct him.
Just curious, when you prayed for salvation, were you told what to say? It doesn't sound like it from your testimony, but I was just wondering.
Oh, absolutely. And thank God for them. But I can cite instances of those who haven't darkened the door of a church in years, but insist they are saved because they "said the prayer."
I also walked an aisle in 1947 and the Lord has kept me to this day. But my testimony is not that I walked the aisle, and it is not my hope of heaven.
Exactly. Careful, Winman, this sounds as if you're coming over to the dark side. We're agreeing here.
Incidentally, when the Lord saved me, I never prayed a prayer, nor was I instructed to. I came under deep conviction for the first time in my 9-year-old life. My pastor simply asked me a series of questions.
Why are you coming?
Do you understand what it means to be a sinner?
Do you understand the consequences of your sins?
Do you repent of your sins?
Do you wish to trust Jesus and Him alone for your salvation?
Sit down right over there.
We're on the same page here. Except if you were still wallowing in sin, it might raise a question as to whether you did it just to keep from going to hell.
I've never told anyone that, and never heard it from the pulpit, even from Calvinist preachers. The exhortation has always been "repent and trust Christ."
Do you think that Adam had a "different' "free will" than all of us now have as a result of the fall?
Do you think that our desires/will have been constrained at all by fact we are sinners?
which is why I've stated that you always choose your greatest desire with the options available to you. Obviously you will have a greater desire that isn't an option. but within the options available to you, you will always choose your greatest desire.
As with the robbery example. you either give your money or you don't. There is no option to be in another location, though we both would say would be a much greater desire at that moment. But that option isn't available, so you choose the greatest desire within the options available to you.
saturneptune
New Member
Tom, is that story about the three deacons really true? I would like to meet them someday. LOL.
I do not claim to understand the complex nature of God's sovereignty vs man's free will, as I have no theological training, other than reading Scripture. I can only speak for my experience. I admire Skandeleon, and others who tackle this issue daily.
All I know is that during that revival in Novenbe 1994, at which Tom Butler was present, I felt like I had been hit with a ton of bricks. I had attended the first two services, and went home feeling very agitated. One night the evangelist played Amazing Grace on a saw, and I whispered t my wife, "I am not going back to one more night of this Hee Haw circus." She just looked at me and whispered back, you better listen to the Lord. Anyway, the next night, a Thursday, the speaker talked about faith in Jesus Christ, a changed life, a gift with no works, and the death, burial and Ressurection of Jesus Christ as the basis of our hope. That is the point I felt the bricks hit. The more he talked, the worse I felt. Down deep inside, I knew instantly that I was no more saved than Adolph Hitler. Going to a six week communicants class, and going before a church to answer questions about the Lord that had been practiced at the age of thirteen was not the basis of salvation. My life had not changed. I went to church because I had been taught to go to church by Mom and Dad, and now went because my wife went, plus it was a good example for my kids. No, I did not go around cheating on my wife and come home drunk every night, but I knew at that moment my heart was not a heart that loved the Lord with all my heart, soul, and mind. He was not the center of my life. Until that moment, I realized I did not ever really have the desire to understand the Gospel, the real meaning of he death, burial and Ressurection, or the concept of the depth of God's love for me, that his Son would die for my sins, and that it was a free gift. The experience at the Presbyterian church was in essence what one would do in a history class for a test, memorize a set of answers to a set of known questions.
Without getting into a debate about the worthiness of an altar call, when the service was over, I walked up front, knowing that I was lost. The Lord saved me. Before that night, I the question never crossed my mind of not being saved. I had joined a church, and that was quite enough. That all changed that night.
My attendance at church was better than 90% of the other members. I gave more of my salary than most, and participated in more ministries. That all makes no difference. It was without Jesus Christ as my Lord. I cannot describe all the things that were going through my mind. How much tme had I wasted playing church? Why did the Lord touch me that night, bring me to that revival? It hit me that the pain that Christ suffered on the cross for all the sins I had committed was real pain, physical and spiritual pain. The Creator of the universe had died for me and touched me to bring me into His family. Another thing I felt at the moment was being ashamed for the angry thoughts I had at the man bringing the message.
As I said above, I do not know which side my description of this salvation experience puts me on, but I am eternally thankful to the Lord. My local church had and has lots of kind and mature spiritual leaders. Tom Butler and other spiritual leaders of the church were very instrumental in guiding me on the start of this wonderful journey. Today, I am in all the ministries that I did before salvation, but today, I actually look forward to going and serving. I still fall short of God's glory, and still say things I should not (imagine that), but the Lord is my Savior, is guiding me, and has me on the road to eternity with him.
I would appreciate someone who took the time to read this telling me which side of this issue you would classify me.
doctrine that state ONLY God has real free will, humans have free wils limited by our sin natures...
Free to chose what we want, but not free to chose all things!
just trying to figure out who has absolute sovereignity per the scriptures...
God or man?
This is not like the gun-robbery...don't confuse them....Obviously, in the gun-robbery example, there is a greater desire to survive. "Greg" is robbed of the option to save both....of course, but the question is Which baby would he save?? and WHY? Obviously, he WILL save one of them...but his choice will in no way be reflective of desire, therefore we must appeal to something else to explain his choice. Namely, Freedom of human volition.
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saturneptune
New Member
One point I would like to make about the discussion of the wallet. One does realize that if they gave up their wallet for fear of their lives, that they might have been murdered anyway by the robber even if they did give up their wallet.
Yes....Icon, and the point is, it is provable and demonstrably true that (in base ten...for those who get cutesy) 2+2=4: It is also, I assume...something you believe to be true yourself...and it is not "Scriptural" You are trying to kid yourself into believing that the only things you believe are "Biblically based" but they are not.
You don't realize it...but you are making an amateurish philiosophical argument here....You philosophize ALL THE TIME ICON. Everyone does, you just don't realize it.
Erm....yes...you are quoting this as if it read "Man shall not live on bread at all, but on every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God exclusively."
Icon...YOU ARE A COMPATIBILIST....and you are unaware of it....You believe it to be a proper explanation of what determines man's choices....but YOU DO NOT believe it because it is Scriptural...You believe it because your Calvinist masters have told you it is true. It is a perfectly common belief held by many a good and wise and well educated man; but it is not Biblical. You will note that Scripture is not used to back up its claims by the Cals on this board.
As C.S. Lewis once said, “Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered.”
And when you divorce yourself of the impoverished idea that anyone here is defending the claim that we are
then your posts will be relevant to the discussion. No one believes that.
Don't look now Icon....but you are making a deductive argument....you are "philosophizing".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman
Like I said, go rob someone and use this argument as your defense in court and see if it works.
And I am telling you I would not "desire" to give him my wallet at all, though I would give it to him.
Their greatest desire is a choice. They want both, but they reason the child's need is more important than having a new TV. Their greatest desire is determined by reason, not brute passion.
If I hand my wallet to the robber, it is not because I have this overwhelming desire to give him my wallet. I don't desire to give him my wallet at all. My desire is to keep my own wallet. But I reason that it would be wise to give the robber my wallet to preserve my life.
A person controlled by their desires would be nothing but an animal. A man would attack every beautiful woman he sees. You would steal whatever you desired, etc...
Go down your street and ask every neighbor if they desire to go to hell. Not one will tell you they desire this. The problem is their thoughts have been deceived by lies from Satan. They believe they are good enough as is to merit heaven.
It is like the old children's rhyme,
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, all good children go to heaven.
Folks believe this stuff. They have been taught this lie since childhood. They are taught you have to earn heaven, to merit it. Try convincing a Roman Catholic that salvation is simply a free gift, they won't believe you. They have been taught by whom they trust the most you must merit heaven, their parents, and their church since they were born. They have been taught that as long as they don't commit serious sin they will be ok.
The reason these folks don't believe the gospel is not because they desire to go to hell, but rather because their minds have been blinded by falsehood.
You don't get it. It's not even that you get the argument but you disagree. It is literally that you don't even get the argument.
If I tell you to give me your wallet- you may say- NO! I don't want to!
But if I I limit your options I can make you want to give me your wallet. It's nt that you will enjoy giving it to me but I will limit your options so much that you will want to give it to me more than any other option I give you.
If I grab you around your neck and squeeze until you can't breath and I say, "Give me your wallet or die," now you still have a choice- but it is limited to only two options now.
Option 1- give me your wallet and live.
Option 2- hold on to your wallet and die.
Now you will CHOOSE to do whatever you most want to do. If you most want to hold on to your wallet and die, then you will choose to hold on to your wallet while I end your life.
But if you most want to live then you will give me your wallet.
It's not that you don't wish you had other options. Sure. You'd hold on to your wallet if I did not limit your options- but I did. Now you will choose between those options that I gave you what YOU MOST WANT TO DO.
That's every choice you ever make. You may wish you had other options before you make a choice, but Providence decides the options for you and you simply choose from out of the options available which one you MOST WANT.
Got it?
Originally Posted by Winman
Like I said, go rob someone and use this argument as your defense in court and see if it works.
And I am telling you I would not "desire" to give him my wallet at all, though I would give it to him.
Their greatest desire is a choice. They want both, but they reason the child's need is more important than having a new TV. Their greatest desire is determined by reason, not brute passion.
If I hand my wallet to the robber, it is not because I have this overwhelming desire to give him my wallet. I don't desire to give him my wallet at all. My desire is to keep my own wallet. But I reason that it would be wise to give the robber my wallet to preserve my life.
A person controlled by their desires would be nothing but an animal. A man would attack every beautiful woman he sees. You would steal whatever you desired, etc...
Go down your street and ask every neighbor if they desire to go to hell. Not one will tell you they desire this. The problem is their thoughts have been deceived by lies from Satan. They believe they are good enough as is to merit heaven.
It is like the old children's rhyme,
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, all good children go to heaven.
Folks believe this stuff. They have been taught this lie since childhood. They are taught you have to earn heaven, to merit it. Try convincing a Roman Catholic that salvation is simply a free gift, they won't believe you. They have been taught by whom they trust the most you must merit heaven, their parents, and their church since they were born. They have been taught that as long as they don't commit serious sin they will be ok.
The reason these folks don't believe the gospel is not because they desire to go to hell, but rather because their minds have been blinded by falsehood.
You don't get it. It's not even that you get the argument but you disagree. It is literally that you don't even get the argument.
If I tell you to give me your wallet- you may say- NO! I don't want to!
But if I I limit your options I can make you want to give me your wallet. It's nt that you will enjoy giving it to me but I will limit your options so much that you will want to give it to me more than any other option I give you.
If I grab you around your neck and squeeze until you can't breath and I say, "Give me your wallet or die," now you still have a choice- but it is limited to only two options now.
Option 1- give me your wallet and live.
Option 2- hold on to your wallet and die.
Now you will CHOOSE to do whatever you most want to do. If you most want to hold on to your wallet and die, then you will choose to hold on to your wallet while I end your life.
But if you most want to live then you will give me your wallet.
It's not that you don't wish you had other options. Sure. You'd hold on to your wallet if I did not limit your options- but I did. Now you will choose between those options that I gave you what YOU MOST WANT TO DO.
That's every choice you ever make. You may wish you had other options before you make a choice, but Providence decides the options for you and you simply choose from out of the options available which one you MOST WANT.
Got it?
You and JBH say that a person does what they most want to do. I say that a person controls their desire. The will overrides desires. What you finally want is what you will.
If man were a total slave of his desire, then man must necessarily be the worst he can be. A man would steal whatever he desired, a man would try to seduce every attractive woman he sees. He would be compelled by his desires.
The fact that even unregenerate men do not do this proves that the will controls the desires. A man may see a car that he desires with the keys in the car. He could steal the car. But the man consciously wills not to steal the car. His will is not to be a thief. He knows it is wrong to steal, and so the man suppresses his desire for the car.
Now, you guys keep saying desire, but it is the will that controls a man, not the desires. If it is a beautiful day, I have a great desire to stay home and go to the beach. I really do not desire to go to work at all, but I reason it would be foolish and irresponsible to forfeit a day's pay when I have bills to pay. I will myself to go to work. I don't particularly want to, I don't necessarily enjoy going to work, certainly not nearly as much as I would enjoy going to the beach, but I will myself to go to work and suppress my desires to take the day off.
Now, if you've ever dragged yourself into work when you would have rather taken the day off you know this is true. You don't go in because you enjoy it or desire it, but because you will yourself to go to work.
If I were a total slave to my desires, I would take the day off every day.
If man were a total slave of his desire, then man must necessarily be the worst he can be. A man would steal whatever he desired, a man would try to seduce every attractive woman he sees. He would be compelled by his desires.
The fact that even unregenerate men do not do this proves that the will controls the desires. A man may see a car that he desires with the keys in the car. He could steal the car. But the man consciously wills not to steal the car. His will is not to be a thief. He knows it is wrong to steal, and so the man suppresses his desire for the car.
Now, you guys keep saying desire, but it is the will that controls a man, not the desires. If it is a beautiful day, I have a great desire to stay home and go to the beach. I really do not desire to go to work at all, but I reason it would be foolish and irresponsible to forfeit a day's pay when I have bills to pay. I will myself to go to work. I don't particularly want to, I don't necessarily enjoy going to work, certainly not nearly as much as I would enjoy going to the beach, but I will myself to go to work and suppress my desires to take the day off.
Now, if you've ever dragged yourself into work when you would have rather taken the day off you know this is true. You don't go in because you enjoy it or desire it, but because you will yourself to go to work.
If I were a total slave to my desires, I would take the day off every day.
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed;
David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Here are a couple of people called by name but lived say 1000 years apart.
In their own time say 1000 years apart. Also in other parts of the world, in all probability there were people living, let's say on the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn, not called by those names of course.
At the time of Abraham and David and Samuel was the following in bold in all probability taking place around them, being done by the one underlined.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
If it were going on around Abraham, David and Samuel what about on the two Capes?
I assume those living at the two Capes died. I also assume they died for the following reason. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
I wonder if they knew why they were dying? "For as in Adam all die,"
I also wonder what a shock this is going to be to them? "even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Is God going to talk to them about their lack of faith three to five thousand years ago. Or is he and or Jesus himself and or those called by God for his name going to tell them about the faith by which they have just been made alive again? ER, born again.
Gal. 3:22-25 with an insert from Col. 1:18<15 for understanding.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before the faith (of Jesus Christ) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith (of Jesus Christ) which should afterwards be revealed. (by resurrection of the one who died, Jesus Christ, "who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 15") Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ, that we might be, by faith justified But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Someone needs to explain to me how faith (a noun) in those scriptures have a thing to do with Our faith (a verb), what we believe about someone. Remember this has to be relative to every single soul who has ever lived in or out of deceit of which I do not think many have lived out of deceit. Tower of Babel. He was there.
Go slow for I am slow in understanding.
David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Here are a couple of people called by name but lived say 1000 years apart.
In their own time say 1000 years apart. Also in other parts of the world, in all probability there were people living, let's say on the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn, not called by those names of course.
At the time of Abraham and David and Samuel was the following in bold in all probability taking place around them, being done by the one underlined.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
If it were going on around Abraham, David and Samuel what about on the two Capes?
I assume those living at the two Capes died. I also assume they died for the following reason. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
I wonder if they knew why they were dying? "For as in Adam all die,"
I also wonder what a shock this is going to be to them? "even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Is God going to talk to them about their lack of faith three to five thousand years ago. Or is he and or Jesus himself and or those called by God for his name going to tell them about the faith by which they have just been made alive again? ER, born again.
Gal. 3:22-25 with an insert from Col. 1:18<15 for understanding.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before the faith (of Jesus Christ) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith (of Jesus Christ) which should afterwards be revealed. (by resurrection of the one who died, Jesus Christ, "who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 15") Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ, that we might be, by faith justified But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Someone needs to explain to me how faith (a noun) in those scriptures have a thing to do with Our faith (a verb), what we believe about someone. Remember this has to be relative to every single soul who has ever lived in or out of deceit of which I do not think many have lived out of deceit. Tower of Babel. He was there.
Go slow for I am slow in understanding.
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