can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

His teaching would be that unless one has submitted to jesus in lordship, as

he defines it being obeying him in all areas

,

How would you define it?

Where in the bible does it define it as anything less?

Where is a Christian okay to be in rebellion to Jesus as Lord.?

What area, or areas is it permissible to sin and defy God?

at all times once saved, do not have a genuine salvation?

If someone is living in open sin why should he be assured he is a believer.?

If someone displays the fruits of the flesh most of the time,where do they get comfort for the word of God that they have the Spirit indwelling them.?

The certainty of the cross is only for believers.False professors who have no fruit in the life, have no solid basis to claim justification.

Our behaviour does not save us, but is evidence to some degree that we actually saved, correct?

That is correct...but the false Christian is judged according to his works;
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

the extreme lordship position does indeed get really close to wesylan sinless perfection, or SDA kept saved by our works!

No it does not if you understand it correctly.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Give it enough time & they will start vilifying you...to your face. Maybe they will form a mob & chase you through the streets.....Like.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq1KeyEARBU

Or maybe they'll do like the good ole boys of Mississip' did to Homer here. :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1

His teaching would be that unless one has submitted to jesus in lordship, as ,

How would you define it?

Where in the bible does it define it as anything less?

Where is a Christian okay to be in rebellion to Jesus as Lord.?

What area, or areas is it permissible to sin and defy God?



If someone is living in open sin why should he be assured he is a believer.?

If someone displays the fruits of the flesh most of the time,where do they get comfort for the word of God that they have the Spirit indwelling them.?

The certainty of the cross is only for believers.False professors who have no fruit in the life, have no solid basis to claim justification.


That is correct...but the false Christian is judged according to his works;
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,




No it does not if you understand it correctly.

were ALL the areas under the control of jesus right when he saved you then?

is there ANY saint living who can freely confess that they had jesus directly control their every action/thoughts/deed since being saved all of the time?

Dr john has taken the truth of a Christian SHOULD have jesus over his entire life, to be involved in all decisions amde, actions done etc, to where he MUST be, and that is NOT the Gospel of grace!

Aren't you really saying to sinners, that you must clean up your life BEFORE coming to jesus?

Isn't that just as bad as saying "just accept jesus!"

 

[Iconoclast]

were ALL the areas under the control of jesus right when he saved you then?

is there ANY saint living who can freely confess that they had jesus directly control their every action/thoughts/deed since being saved all of the time?

Dr john has taken the truth of a Christian SHOULD have jesus over his entire life, to be involved in all decisions amde, actions done etc, to where he MUST be, and that is NOT theGospel of grace!

You did not answer the questions i asked you......answer each question then we can progress.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1

His teaching would be that unless one has submitted to jesus in lordship, as ,

How would you define it?

That God already has placed Jesus over me as my Lord moment that He saved me by His grace, and the work of the Holy spirit is to convict and show me just how to have Him applied to all aspects of my new life, but it is a gradual process, called saunctification!

As jesus is Lord, is the Spirit Himself revelaing to us jesus os God, and so calling upon Him as God, as he really is, NOT submitting to Him over all areas of life right at salvation time!
the desire to obey him will be there once saved, as the Spriit Himself prompts and convicts me to submit to Him, but there will and aree times I chose to submit to that, and will instead do as i will...

Where in the bible does it define it as anything less?

Again, jesus is already my Lord once saved by him, but will be maturing and growing into what that means, as it takes time from our perspective to have more of his direct control over us, that is called progressive saunctiifcation!

Where is a Christian okay to be in rebellion to Jesus as Lord.?

NONE here say that it is, but we alsp allow that being in the flesh, and having our wills, can still chose to disobey against him at times!

What area, or areas is it permissible to sin and defy God?

Again, NEVER is the right thing to do, but we are not in a state of sinless perfection yet are we while here i the flesh?

If someone is living in open sin why should he be assured he is a believer.?

if you mean unrepentent, unconfessed sinful living, that there is no desire to even get right with God, would agree, but there are times that we still will sin and even for a season keep that from God !

See King David...

If someone displays the fruits of the flesh most of the time,where do they get comfort for the word of God that they have the Spirit indwelling them.?

My salvation rooted in the person and work of Jesus on my behalf, not based upon my beviour and works!

The certainty of the cross is only for believers.False professors who have no fruit in the life, have no solid basis to claim justification.


That is correct...but the false Christian is judged according to his works;
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,




No it does not if you understand it correctly.

again, can a saint fail at times to have he Holy spirit fully controlling them? can we grieve/quench him after being saved?

Lordship of Christ would me being yeilded and submitted to the Holy Spirit in our lives on a daily basis, correct?

 

[DHK]

Sinners CANNOT know Jesus is the Lord, is very God of very God, until/unles the Holy Spirit reveals that unto them, so even to be able to call upon his name, upon the real jesus of the Bible is the work of god, so wouldn't adding Lordship as some fefine it be adding a work to the working of God? We would be cooperating, coassisting Him to get us saved?

That is not true. Huxley, the great proponent of Darwin's evolution, once answered: "Do I believe in evolution because it is credible? No. I believe in evolution because because belief in God is far too incredible!"
He knew the cost was great; that Christ was Lord. If God were to be his master, then he would have to be his servant. He would rather believe in evolution!

As an unsaved Catholic I believed that Christ was Lord; that didn't make me saved.

Even the unsaved recognize that Christ is Lord! (many of them). That doesn't make them saved. It doesn't mean the Holy Spirit revealed it to them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

Okay..thank you for your response.Now working through the short list of questions you can see the tension that exists in living the christian life.No one teaches sinless perfection.Yes there is a growth in grace.

again, can a saint fail at times to have he Holy spirit fully controlling them? can we grieve/quench him after being saved?

Sure....that is not the real issue however...paul as a christian writes romans seven... that eph4 tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit says that it could happen.

That does not mean it should happen, or it is somehow okay.Our sin does not mean Jesus is somehow not Lord...or we have not "yielded"..it means we have sinfully rebelled against Him.

Lordship of Christ would me being yeilded and submitted to the Holy Spirit in our lives on a daily basis, correct?

It means just what J mac said it means.....all things are under His Lordship....every aspect of our life 24/7.....our conduct, our speech, our thoughts......that is why we are to diligently mortify these sins...it is a command, not an option....grace enables us to obey God's law/word....we are not lawless......we do not take time off...or bargain with God..such as:

I will obey 7 of the commandments, but I will not yield to the others yet.

 

[DHK]

that eph4 tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit says that it could happen.

That does not mean it should happen, or it is somehow okay.Our sin does not mean Jesus is somehow not Lord...or we have not "yielded"..it means we have sinfully rebelled against Him.

I will obey 7 of the commandments, but I will not yield to the others yet.

You have just defined a CARNAL CHRISTIAN!

 

[OldRegular]

For the record, let me, at least, say unequivocally ...

• Jesus is Lord of all, without qualification.
• Jesus is Lord and Savior of those who believe.
• Jesus, however, does not save via His Lordship, else all would be saved.

Now, would everyone see if they could stay on track with those bullet points?[/FONT][/SIZE]

If Jesus does not save through His Lordship just how does He save?

 

[DHK]

If Jesus does not save through His Lordship just how does He save?

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

All these verses are not about Lordship; they are about discipleship, as Christ has clearly said. Yet the advocates of Lordship salvation use these proof-texts for their unbiblical doctrine of Lordship salvation.
They speak of sanctification and are spoken to his disciples not new Christians. A new believer in Christ cannot be expected to "forsake all that he has," and follow Jesus. That is what a mature missionary does after preparing in Bible College as the Lord prepared them in his "college."

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If Jesus does not save through His Lordship just how does He save?

He doesn't save "through" His Lordship, but, because of it, and we don't have to fully understand it to claim it, given that God is the one who has revealed sufficient truth to us that we can believe at all. We know that only the Lord's sacrifice of Himself in our place is sufficient to pay the eternal penalty of sin for the whole world, and we need to have an overview of that fact that we can grasp, otherwise we will not see Jesus as anyone but a "great teacher." We must see Him as God Himself in order to understand how that sacrifice was possible, and effective. But we do not have to place ourselves absolutely under His Lordship, and be completely settled in under His Lordship, in order to be saved. If we did, no one would ever be saved.

Lordship was at the very heart of Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross, because only He could do it. But our salvation is not dependent on our fully understanding that His Lordship is a sovereign authority due Him by the nature of His Godhood. Christ's Lordship is nonetheless essential, vital, to His role in our lives. When we grasp the concept of His Lordship, when it becomes a "settled issue" in our lives, all other issues become settled as well.

When we settle in our minds, hearts and spirits that He is not only Savior, but also Lord, then what the Bible says about serving God, witnessing and soul winning, the stewardship of our time, talent, and treasure, faithfulness to God’s work, missions and many other aspects of Christian responsibility become crystal clear to us in how we are to submit to Him. But it would be impossible for us to grasp all of that without first being saved and under His shed blood.

The contention that salvation is dependent on a full understanding of His Lordship would be discouraging to someone who is genuinely seeking Christ because the Holy Spirit has called him/her, drawn the would-be believer to Christ through Himself. Moreover, it is unbiblical. It is to be rejected. Yes, He is Lord, and understanding that very generally is essential to our being able to both know that He has the authority to lay down His life for us, and has, and to also trust Him as Savior. But fully understanding what His Lordship means in terms of our obedience, and clarity in who we are in Him, is not a matter that needs to be grasped in order to be saved.

A drowning man doesn't need to know who invented the life preserver he must insert himself into, or the workings of the mechanism that will reel him in out of the surf. All he has to know is he must put his arms through the hole in the preserver for it to work.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not true. Huxley, the great proponent of Darwin's evolution, once answered: "Do I believe in evolution because it is credible? No. I believe in evolution because because belief in God is far too incredible!"
He knew the cost was great; that Christ was Lord. If God were to be his master, then he would have to be his servant. He would rather believe in evolution!

As an unsaved Catholic I believed that Christ was Lord; that didn't make me saved.

Even the unsaved recognize that Christ is Lord! (many of them). That doesn't make them saved. It doesn't mean the Holy Spirit revealed it to them.

I think what we both would agree on here is that sinners, like the Demons, have a knowledge of jesus being God, but unlesss/until the Holy Spirit works upon and in them, cannot know Him as THEIR God, just as God in general sense!

For I know no sinner/non believer that knows jesus is God apart from that is what the bible states/church teches/christians say, but NOT true to them!

 

[Yeshua1]

If Jesus does not save through His Lordship just how does He save?

By his bloodd shed on the Cross for my atonement/propiation, and by virtue of his resurrection!

THAT is basis of salvation, not his lordship!

 

[DHK]

I think what we both would agree on here is that sinners, like the Demons, have a knowledge of jesus being God, but unlesss/until the Holy Spirit works upon and in them, cannot know Him as THEIR God, just as God in general sense!

For I know no sinner/non believer that knows jesus is God apart from that is what the bible states/church teches/christians say, but NOT true to them!

I would disagree with that. I look back on my experience as an unsaved Catholic and can't say that I didn't believe that Jesus is God. I did. But to personally believe that Christ was my Savior and paid the penalty for my sins, took my place upon the cross--now that is different. I now understood that the gospel was for me, personally.
What you are saying, yes I knew those things as an unsaved Catholic.

 

[OldRegular]

He doesn't save "through" His Lordship, but, because of it. Only the Lord's sacrifice of Himself in our place is sufficient to pay the eternal penalty of sin for the whole world. But we do not have to place ourselves absolutely under His Lordship, and be completely settled in under His Lordship, in order to be saved. If we did, no one would ever be saved.

I really see no real difference in being saved "through" His Lordship, which I prefer, or "because" of His Lordship.

I agree in principle with the statement:

But we do not have to place ourselves absolutely under His Lordship, and be completely settled in under His Lordship, in order to be saved. If we did, no one would ever be saved.

However, I do not believe that is what Lordship salvation means though I did not coin the phrase and perhaps MacArthur sees it different.

 

[Yeshua1]

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

All these verses are not about Lordship; they are about discipleship, as Christ has clearly said. Yet the advocates of Lordship salvation use these proof-texts for their unbiblical doctrine of Lordship salvation.
They speak of sanctification and are spoken to his disciples not new Christians. A new believer in Christ cannot be expected to "forsake all that he has," and follow Jesus. That is what a mature missionary does after preparing in Bible College as the Lord prepared them in his "college."

Even Apostle paul saw babes and matures in Christ, so were both of them selling out as full disciplies then?

 

[Yeshua1]

I would disagree with that. I look back on my experience as an unsaved Catholic and can't say that I didn't believe that Jesus is God. I did. But to personally believe that Christ was my Savior and paid the penalty for my sins, took my place upon the cross--now that is different. I now understood that the gospel was for me, personally.
What you are saying, yes I knew those things as an unsaved Catholic.

You had the lnowledge of that truth, but not a relationship with him as God as YOUR saviour and lord until the Spirit made you "see" that and call upon him to be youtr God now, and to have a spiritual relationship with Him!

 

[Yeshua1]

I really see no real difference in being saved "through" His Lordship, which I prefer, or "because" of His Lordship.

I agree in principle with the statement: However, I do not believe that is what Lordship salvation means though I did not coin the phrase and perhaps MacArthur sees it different.

Ir is an over reaction to seeing many claiming to have been saved, who show no evidence /fruit of that really happening, so they corrected it going extreme other way, and foricng one to make a full surrender to jesus when once saved!

even AFTER being saved, peter acted wrongly in galatians, paul kept on doing bad things, so were they not yet fully surrendered, not saved yet?

 

[DHK]

You had the lnowledge of that truth, but not a relationship with him as God as YOUR saviour and lord until the Spirit made you "see" that and call upon him to be youtr God now, and to have a spiritual relationship with Him!

You keep redefining your position. That is not what you said in the first place. You never said anything about a relationship. I agree with you here, and that is what I have been saying all along.
Here is what you said what I disagreed with:

For I know no sinner/non believer that knows jesus is God apart from that is what the bible states/church teches/christians say, but NOT true to them!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I agree in principle with the statement: However, I do not believe that is what Lordship salvation means though I did not coin the phrase and perhaps MacArthur sees it different.

As I posted very early on in the thread, JMac sees Lordship salvation as being the necessity of submitting entirely to Jesus as Lord before salvation is effective. Others on the thread have tried to deny that is what he said, but clearly, from the text of his own book (I gave page numbers) that is precisely what he believes, and those same on this thread defend him. So I leave it to them to explain how they can believe so unbiblical an assessment. So far, they haven't.