can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?

[preacher4truth]

What's this "if Jesus isn't Lord...yadda yadda yadda"? He's Lord whether we like it or not. He's even Lord over the.....gasp.....goats....they just don't know it, neither do they care...

Correct. Jesus is Lord and every knee will bow to that. Those knees that don't bow to that now are none of His yet we have some preaching a distinction between believers and disciples all the while there is no such distinction within all of Scripture. Such preachers will give an account for their deceptive message.

We have people today who merely want saved from hell and yet go on in their sins and so they are found by a preacher who will guarantee them heaven if they pray a prayer. I see that as judgment upon them both.

Then we have those to whom Christ has revealed Himself (Matthew 11:27) and thus they realize they need and WANT to be saved from their SINS not just Hell so they can go on living in sin and deceiving themselves, no, they want to be saved from their sinful state -- Matthew 1:21.

It's apparent many have prayed a prayer to be saved from hell and go on in a lifestyle of sin while being declared by some preacher that they're going to heaven.

 

[Iconoclast]

I did answer it. You refused my answer. Why? You refuse to look at context.
Talk about cars and you enter the subject of cats. non sequitor.
You have done the same thing here. Totally ridiculous!!

Remember, the discussion we are supposed to be having is about salvation, particularly salvation by faith as related to Lordship salvation.

Here is your "proof text" in context:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1. He is speaking to "brethren" the saints of God.
2. He is speaking to them of the "spiritual gifts," not about salvation.
3. He is speaking to them about the abuse of spiritual gifts.
4. In verse 2 he relates them to their pagan past. What happened in their pagan past? They spoke with ecstatic tongues, and they also spoke in tongues not knowing what they were saying. In paganism speaking in tongues is often speaking through a demon (demonism or even demon-possession). Paul reminds them of these practices.

5. He reminds them that their are two kinds of "spirits"--one that will call Jesus Lord, and one that will curse Jesus.
There were some that were speaking in a foreign language cursing the name of Jesus because they were speaking in another language (through a demon) and not knowing what they were saying. They were actually cursing Jesus.
Corinth was a port city where people of many different ethnic backgrounds gathered. Some may have recognized what that person was saying. The complaint may have reached Paul. The point is obviously this: Not everyone that speaks in tongues has the God-given gift of "speaking in tongues." Some were doing it out of the flesh. Some were going back to their pagan past and relying on what they learned in paganism. Perhaps some were not even saved and still in the grips of paganism and speaking through demons.
How were they to tell.
First, as Paul further explains, everyone that spoke in tongues must have an interpreter.
Second, the one speaking must speak in a known language, and what they would say would be judged by the prophets (doctrinally sounnd).
Third, it would be spoken by the Spirit of God testifying that Christ is Lord.

BTW, any unsaved person can say that Christ is Lord. Catholics do it all the time. I used to do it as an unsaved Catholic. It isn't a test of salvation.
You are using the verse out of context.

Notice verse four. He goes on and starts listing the spiritual gifts.
This has nothing to do with salvation. Your "proof text" is just another red herring.

I did not post 1 cor 12....were you posting this to me? You did not really answer Kyred on the Galatians verse...and your answer to O.R.'s question did not make sense

 

[Iconoclast]

Please refer to posting by james #61!

I re read post 61.....but he offers nothing but his misunderstand of something from J macs book...he never offers proof,you said many teach this ....I am asking for a link or a paragraph where someone teaches as you say complete sanctification before salvation....I have not seen it...ever.

 

[Winman]

I did answer it. You refused my answer. Why? You refuse to look at context.
Talk about cars and you enter the subject of cats. non sequitor.
You have done the same thing here. Totally ridiculous!!

Remember, the discussion we are supposed to be having is about salvation, particularly salvation by faith as related to Lordship salvation.

Here is your "proof text" in context:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1. He is speaking to "brethren" the saints of God.
2. He is speaking to them of the "spiritual gifts," not about salvation.
3. He is speaking to them about the abuse of spiritual gifts.
4. In verse 2 he relates them to their pagan past. What happened in their pagan past? They spoke with ecstatic tongues, and they also spoke in tongues not knowing what they were saying. In paganism speaking in tongues is often speaking through a demon (demonism or even demon-possession). Paul reminds them of these practices.

5. He reminds them that their are two kinds of "spirits"--one that will call Jesus Lord, and one that will curse Jesus.
There were some that were speaking in a foreign language cursing the name of Jesus because they were speaking in another language (through a demon) and not knowing what they were saying. They were actually cursing Jesus.
Corinth was a port city where people of many different ethnic backgrounds gathered. Some may have recognized what that person was saying. The complaint may have reached Paul. The point is obviously this: Not everyone that speaks in tongues has the God-given gift of "speaking in tongues." Some were doing it out of the flesh. Some were going back to their pagan past and relying on what they learned in paganism. Perhaps some were not even saved and still in the grips of paganism and speaking through demons.
How were they to tell.
First, as Paul further explains, everyone that spoke in tongues must have an interpreter.
Second, the one speaking must speak in a known language, and what they would say would be judged by the prophets (doctrinally sounnd).
Third, it would be spoken by the Spirit of God testifying that Christ is Lord.

BTW, any unsaved person can say that Christ is Lord. Catholics do it all the time. I used to do it as an unsaved Catholic. It isn't a test of salvation.
You are using the verse out of context.

Notice verse four. He goes on and starts listing the spiritual gifts.
This has nothing to do with salvation. Your "proof text" is just another red herring.

We don't always agree, but this is a very good interpretation of this passage. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

You're theologically out on a limb as usual. Lydia's heart was also opened BEFORE as well -- Acts 16:14. Every truly regenerate born from above believer has had his or her heart opened first by the Spirit of God so that they can see. Every person is blinded to the gospel by Satan and it takes God to open their hearts and eyes, 2 Cor. 4:4. We only believe by the power of God (Eph. 1:19) not via the innate inherent faith error. God get's ALL the glory not just a portion of it.

Lydia's heart was opened. So was Pharaoh's in the OT. So was Saul's in Acts chapter 7 as he witnessed the stoning of Stephen. So were the rest of the Pharisees and Sadducees when they were "cut to the heart."
After that, some chose to reject the truth, and Lydia by faith received the truth. Only after putting HER faith in that gospel message was she regenerated/saved. The two happened simultaneously. Faith had to precede it.
It is very evident that the Holy Spirit worked before hand.
He worked before hand in the hearts of the Sanhedrin as well.
But as Stephen testified: They resisted the Holy Spirit as their fathers did." (Acts 7:51)

Truthfully I liken your position to a superstition. A man goes into a forest and never hears the gospel. Your idea of the Holy Spirit is like a fairy that comes with some pixie dust and sprinkles it upon the man (actually a frog) and then magically he becomes regenerated, as he "passively" sits there. The "fairy" magically transforms this animal without him doing anything--as if he turns from a frog into a prince. Now he can think for himself. Now he can understand. It is magic. Now he is able to go to the king at the castle and accept the gift the king has for him. As a frog he wasn't able to do that. The fairy had to come first.

This is nonsense. God didn't create us as frogs unable to think for ourselves. He created us in His own image. He created us with the ability to choose and reject. He created us with the innate power to believe. We are made in His image. You deny that fact. By your concept of Total Inability you make man like an animal and take away the unique way that God has created him different from the animals--in His own image. Think about that.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Correct. Jesus is Lord and every knee will bow to that. Those knees that don't bow to that now are none of His yet we have some preaching a distinction between believers and disciples all the while there is no such distinction within all of Scripture. Such preachers will give an account for their deceptive message.

We have people today who merely want saved from hell and yet go on in their sins and so they are found by a preacher who will guarantee them heaven if they pray a prayer. I see that as judgment upon them both.

Then we have those to whom Christ has revealed Himself (Matthew 11:27) and thus they realize they need and WANT to be saved from their SINS not just Hell so they can go on living in sin and deceiving themselves, no, they want to be saved from their sinful state -- Matthew 1:21.

It's apparent many have prayed a prayer to be saved from hell and go on in a lifestyle of sin while being declared by some preacher that they're going to heaven.

Great amount of verbiage to absolutely no point whatsoever.

First you make a grand and completely noncontroversial statement about Jesus being Lord. No one has said He is not.

Then you go on a diatribe condemning those who, I suppose, you think are guilty of "easy believism" yet no one has expressed any thoughts whatsoever to warrant such a statement.

Next you condemn -- really, condemn, as though you had any right or say in someone's condemnation? -- the hypothetical "grace abuser," setting this imaginary person up for the verbal joust that "convincingly" knocks him to the floor. Problem: No one here has indicated they qualify as such a person.

Finally, the ultimate accusation that is a veiled rejection of the "sinner's prayer" -- which hasn't been mentioned in some time on this thread, and when it was, even then was brought up by those of you arguing for "Lordship salvation" despite the fact it had absolutely nothing to do with the thread discussion.

Four wasted paragraphs, all designed to convince and obfuscate the discussion, with absolutely none on point. DHK has, with aplomb,defined the discussion.

Here is the topic: salvation, Lordship salvation, salvation by faith.
Here is what the topic is not: predestination, the decrees of God, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the future suffering of the disciples. These red herring topics you have introduced into this thread as proof-texts to support a doctrine that is not biblical.

He is right. None of you are actually arguing the point. "Arguing" would be an inept description of your completely unrelated and misleading efforts to defend a false doctrine that is has been obvious to me from the beginning that none of you know or understand well enough to explain, much less attempt to defend.

For the record, let me, at least, say unequivocally ...

• Jesus is Lord of all, without qualification.
• Jesus is Lord and Savior of those who believe.
• Jesus, however, does not save via His Lordship, else all would be saved.

Now, would everyone see if they could stay on track with those bullet points?

 

[Iconoclast]

Truthfully I liken your position to a superstition. A man goes into a forest and never hears the gospel. Your idea of the Holy Spirit is like a fairy that comes with some pixie dust and sprinkles it upon the man (actually a frog) and then magically he becomes regenerated, as he "passively" sits there. The "fairy" magically transforms this animal without him doing anything--as if he turns from a frog into a prince. Now he can think for himself. Now he can understand. It is magic.

DHK,

This is a denial of the biblical teaching on regeneration.Jesus spoke of the Spirit working in the unseen realm...not pixie dust. There will be no vain boasting in heaven about how "my faith" got me here.

 

[convicted1]

DHK,

This is a denial of the biblical teaching on regeneration.Jesus spoke of the Spirit working in the unseen realm...not pixie dust. There will be no vain boasting in heaven about how "my faith" got me here.

:jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK,

This is a denial of the biblical teaching on regeneration.Jesus spoke of the Spirit working in the unseen realm...not pixie dust. There will be no vain boasting in heaven about how "my faith" got me here.

And this position is a denial of Scripture.
Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
--It would be an admission you are not justified.

Eph.2:8,9 For by grace are you saved by faith, and that not of yourselves. It (salvation) is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Salvation is the free gift of God. If it isn't accepted by faith (which is not a work), then you don't have it.

 

[preacher4truth]

DHK,

This is a denial of the biblical teaching on regeneration.Jesus spoke of the Spirit working in the unseen realm...not pixie dust. There will be no vain boasting in heaven about how "my faith" got me here.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

And there will be no vain boasting as witnessed in one who boasts his knowing the Lord as a 'personal achievement' and among those who support his error. Such who say these things prove they have no understanding of the truth of Scripture, of man, of sin, or of God. Those who loyally follow them are just as guilty.

 

[DHK]

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

And there will be no vain boasting as witnessed in one who boasts his knowing the Lord as a 'personal achievement' and among those who support his error. Such who say these things prove they have no understanding of the truth of Scripture, of man, of sin, or of God. Those who loyally follow them are just as guilty.

Can you name one person here who has said they have gained salvation by a personal achievement?
Why the veiled false accusations, or if not, the needless post?

 

[preacher4truth]

Can you name one person here who has said they have gained salvation by a personal achievement?
Why the veiled false accusations, or if not, the needless post?

Yep, I can. Perhaps as a 'mod' you should actually be one and pay attention?

 

[DHK]

Yep, I can. Perhaps as a 'mod' you should actually be one and pay attention?

I have paid attention. In fact I have been very active in this thread right from page one. You haven't. This thread is now 20 pages long. In those 20 pages you have not made more than a half dozen posts, and everyone of them have been directed at me or at something I have said. Therefore you are slandering me and falsely accusing me of something I don't believe.

Salvation is all of God, from start to finish.
Faith is not a work. It stands in opposition to works. Study Romans chapter four.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified by by his faith not by his works. This passage describes how faith stands in direct opposition to works and cannot be a work.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

... DHK has, with aplomb,defined the discussion ... He is right. None of you are actually arguing the point. "Arguing" would be an inept description of your completely unrelated and misleading efforts to defend a false doctrine that is has been obvious to me from the beginning that none of you know or understand well enough to explain, much less attempt to defend.

For the record, let me, at least, say unequivocally ...

• Jesus is Lord of all, without qualification.
• Jesus is Lord and Savior of those who believe.
• Jesus, however, does not save via His Lordship, else all would be saved.

Now, would everyone see if they could stay on track with those bullet points?

Nothing of substance. All we get is

 

[Yeshua1]

Great amount of verbiage to absolutely no point whatsoever.

First you make a grand and completely noncontroversial statement about Jesus being Lord. No one has said He is not.

Then you go on a diatribe condemning those who, I suppose, you think are guilty of "easy believism" yet no one has expressed any thoughts whatsoever to warrant such a statement.

Next you condemn -- really, condemn, as though you had any right or say in someone's condemnation? -- the hypothetical "grace abuser," setting this imaginary person up for the verbal joust that "convincingly" knocks him to the floor. Problem: No one here has indicated they qualify as such a person.

Finally, the ultimate accusation that is a veiled rejection of the "sinner's prayer" -- which hasn't been mentioned in some time on this thread, and when it was, even then was brought up by those of you arguing for "Lordship salvation" despite the fact it had absolutely nothing to do with the thread discussion.

Four wasted paragraphs, all designed to convince and obfuscate the discussion, with absolutely none on point. DHK has, with aplomb,defined the discussion.He is right. None of you are actually arguing the point. "Arguing" would be an inept description of your completely unrelated and misleading efforts to defend a false doctrine that is has been obvious to me from the beginning that none of you know or understand well enough to explain, much less attempt to defend.

For the record, let me, at least, say unequivocally ...

• Jesus is Lord of all, without qualification.
• Jesus is Lord and Savior of those who believe.
• Jesus, however, does not save via His Lordship, else all would be saved.

Now, would everyone see if they could stay on track with those bullet points?

Think that the really big problem here on this topic is either thoseadvocating for it are misstating those beliefs, or else they really don't know what the leaders of that hold to!

As there seems to be a confusion how just when does Jesus get to be my lord?

He is right at moment the lord saves me, as I have to see Him as beingGOD in order to ahve the real Him,then once saved/justified, the Spirit Himself thru the bible and His inner workings will get me to see how that Lordship is to get worked out into my new life in Christ now!

Progressive process...

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you name one person here who has said they have gained salvation by a personal achievement?
Why the veiled false accusations, or if not, the needless post?

Think our brother is addressing the issue of will just making a one time profession of faith at either altar call, or crusade, without evidenced of being changed lifestyle was, means the salvation was a genuine one?

 

[Yeshua1]

I re read post 61.....but he offers nothing but his misunderstand of something from J macs book...he never offers proof,you said many teach this ....I am asking for a link or a paragraph where someone teaches as you say complete sanctification before salvation....I have not seen it...ever.

How has he misunderstood though?

His teaching would be that unless one has submitted to jesus in lordship, as he defines it being obeying him in all areas, at all times once saved, do not have a genuine salvation?

Our behaviour does not save us, but is evidence to some degree that we actually saved, correct?

the extreme lordship position does indeed get really close to wesylan sinless perfection, or SDA kept saved by our works!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Romans 10:9-10 gives clear indication of this principle.

Lordship is not about mastering perfection. It is about desire and intent that from now on God rules your life and not you. It is about desiring God and a relationship with Him.

This is in contrast to those who care nothing for God and his Holiness but do want to escape the flames of hell.

I knew I'd read this somewhere on this thread. I had to go looking for it. This is most assuredly "Lordship" in a believer's life, but it is not salvation, it is sanctification.

JMac and many on this thread take the position that failing to acknowledge this relationship with Christ negates one's salvation or at least calls it into question, and that is utter, hopeless nonsense. Then there are others who won't come out and condemn that concept because they, too, embrace it but will not directly say so. Why I keep coming to these threads to debate pseudo-intellectuals who have no real knowledge is beyond me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I knew I'd read this somewhere on this thread. I had to go looking for it. This is most assuredly "Lordship" in a believer's life, but it is not salvation, it is sanctification.

JMac and many on this thread take the position that failing to acknowledge this relationship with Christ negates one's salvation or at least calls it into question, and that is utter, hopeless nonsense. Then there are others who won't come out and condemn that concept because they, too, embrace it but will not directly say so. Why I keep coming to these threads to debate pseudo-intellectuals who have no real knowledge is beyond me.

Give it enough time & they will start vilifying you...to your face. Maybe they will form a mob & chase you through the streets.....Like.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq1KeyEARBU

 

[Yeshua1]

I knew I'd read this somewhere on this thread. I had to go looking for it. This is most assuredly "Lordship" in a believer's life, but it is not salvation, it is sanctification.

JMac and many on this thread take the position that failing to acknowledge this relationship with Christ negates one's salvation or at least calls it into question, and that is utter, hopeless nonsense. Then there are others who won't come out and condemn that concept because they, too, embrace it but will not directly say so. Why I keep coming to these threads to debate pseudo-intellectuals who have no real knowledge is beyond me.

Sinners CANNOT know Jesus is the Lord, is very God of very God, until/unles the Holy Spirit reveals that unto them, so even to be able to call upon his name, upon the real jesus of the Bible is the work of god, so wouldn't adding Lordship as some fefine it be adding a work to the working of God? We would be cooperating, coassisting Him to get us saved?